Does D correctly simulated by H terminate normally?
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I don't give a shit.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave KreskowiakI have been a professional C++ software engineer since 2004. I worked on the Air Force NPOESS satellite program, I automated the civil engineering process such that computer programs automatically create Autocad drawings, I maintained a bank's credit care dispute management system.
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I have been a professional C++ software engineer since 2004. I worked on the Air Force NPOESS satellite program, I automated the civil engineering process such that computer programs automatically create Autocad drawings, I maintained a bank's credit care dispute management system.
You're following your reputation to the letter. I still don't give a shit.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
I have been a professional C++ software engineer since 2004. I worked on the Air Force NPOESS satellite program, I automated the civil engineering process such that computer programs automatically create Autocad drawings, I maintained a bank's credit care dispute management system.
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I don't give a shit.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak:laugh: C'mon Dave don't beat around the bush, tell us how you really feel!
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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Well big deal; there are plenty of people here who have more, less or the same experience and skills. But unlike you they do not abuse the forums or the people who try to help them.
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DNFTT! :laugh: Notorious computer science troll, Pete Olcott[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Still not one single answer, just drastic vote downs and derision. This criteria does make the otherwise "impossible" input decidable. When simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never stop running unless aborted then H is necessarily correct to abort its simulation and reject this input as non-halting. It took me two years to boil it down to the above concise paragraph. People that are paying close attention will understand that it is a tautology, thus impossibly false.
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"For those who code" and do not simply pontificate.
"Before entering on an understanding, I have meditated for a long time, and have foreseen what might happen. It is not genius which reveals to me suddenly, secretly, what I have to say or to do in a circumstance unexpected by other people; it is reflection, it is meditation." - Napoleon I
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That's because your reputation precedes you. You don't really discuss. You evaluate the people who respond to you and either discard them, ignore them, or "collect" them, kind of like sports trading cards.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
People keep finding one excuse or another to dodge rather than answer my question. I just rewrote the question to make it much more clear.
You're still focused on "the question". At this point, it's irrelevant. We're focused on YOU and how you treat people. That's why I said your reputation precedes you. Your behavior and treatment of people on other sites killed any discussion you possibly had, and the same is happening here. Have a nice life.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
You're still focused on "the question". At this point, it's irrelevant. We're focused on YOU and how you treat people. That's why I said your reputation precedes you. Your behavior and treatment of people on other sites killed any discussion you possibly had, and the same is happening here. Have a nice life.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
People have consistently treated me badly the moment that they hear the subject matter, thus your assessment is objectively incorrect. Then when the precedent is established that people are treating me badly others follow this established precedent.
A singular point of view. It's easy to go look you up on other sites and read through the threads.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
What exactly are you referring to about my behavior? From my point of view I ask a straight forward software engineering question and everyone makes sure to dodge the question with one excuse or another. I will change my behavior if that is the actual problem.
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A singular point of view. It's easy to go look you up on other sites and read through the threads.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
I don't understand what you are saying. I ask a straight forward software engineering question and everyone makes up one excuse or another to dodge the question.
And you're doing it again. You're using your question as a distraction to prevent you from looking at yourself.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
And you're doing it again. You're using your question as a distraction to prevent you from looking at yourself.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
So you can't actually point out anything that I am doing wrong and merely want to maintain your bias against me.
I already have and I'm not the only one to point this stuff out to you. It's been done on other forums.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
I have been a professional C++ software engineer since 2004. I worked on the Air Force NPOESS satellite program, I automated the civil engineering process such that computer programs automatically create Autocad drawings, I maintained a bank's credit care dispute management system.
None of that means anything however in the context of the question.
polcott wrote:
I have been a professional C++ software engineer since 2004.
And I learned what you are claiming has been proven to be false in about 1984. I learned the assumptions of the Turing machine and went through multiple proofs associated with it. And a lot more mathematics as well in many other classes.
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I already have and I'm not the only one to point this stuff out to you. It's been done on other forums.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave KreskowiakAll of the replies simply assume that I must be wrong without looking at what I actually said. When I specify that the field is "termination analysis" and that there is currently work being done to analyze "C" functions using compiler intermediate languages, then people can understand that this is not a homework assignment.
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polcott wrote:
The following code is executed in the x86utm operating system based...
No. You are redefining the problem and then ignoring it when people call it out. That program specfically represents a problem that was proven mathematically long ago using the Turing machine. If you want to prove something then you will need to actually provide the same rigor that Turing did. You have not done so.
polcott wrote:
calls H(D,D) that simulates D(D) at line 11
You are ignoring that in the proof H() must be defined for ALL POSSIBLE CASES. You do not get to pick and choose what H() does.
polcott wrote:
Here is an example of work in this same field:
First what journal was that published in? I can find references to the article but not anything that I see as a journal. But as I read the paper it does not really support anything that you are saying. That paper has one specific example. And in fact seems more like an attempt to prove something about a different idiom under test - the "TSR". The paper provides exactly what they did in detail. So I suggest that you answer your own question by applying exactly what they did in the paper to the code that you provided above.
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polcott wrote:
The following code is executed in the x86utm operating system based...
No. You are redefining the problem and then ignoring it when people call it out. That program specfically represents a problem that was proven mathematically long ago using the Turing machine. If you want to prove something then you will need to actually provide the same rigor that Turing did. You have not done so.
polcott wrote:
calls H(D,D) that simulates D(D) at line 11
You are ignoring that in the proof H() must be defined for ALL POSSIBLE CASES. You do not get to pick and choose what H() does.
polcott wrote:
Here is an example of work in this same field:
First what journal was that published in? I can find references to the article but not anything that I see as a journal. But as I read the paper it does not really support anything that you are saying. That paper has one specific example. And in fact seems more like an attempt to prove something about a different idiom under test - the "TSR". The paper provides exactly what they did in detail. So I suggest that you answer your own question by applying exactly what they did in the paper to the code that you provided above.
Does this reply mean that you can't see that D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly terminate normally because it remains stuck in recursive simulation? or that you cannot see that the relationship between D and H is the exact same relationship specified by the Wikipedia article? Technically H is a partial halt decider because it can only correctly determine the halt status of a few cases. The Halting Problem proofs do prove that H cannot return a correct halt status value to an input designed to do the opposite of whatever the halt decider decides. What the halting problem proofs never noticed is that this same input remains stuck in recursive simulation and thus cannot do the opposite of whatever its halt decider decides when the halt decider bases its halt status decision on the behavior of its correct simulation of this input. I never was asking the computer science question: Does H refute the halting problem proofs? I was always asking the much simpler software engineering question: Can you see that D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly terminate normally?
