Did David Kelly really kill himself?
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I seriously doubt it. How does this development bode for Tony Blair? Can he be a viable leader among suspicion that assassins had a hand in Kelly's untimely death? The Iraqi conflict seems to share a similarity with the Vietnam War in that it was started under false pretenses, e.g. Vietnam was predicated on the assumption the US ships were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin. On the United States side, a group has managed to retrieve several documents that oil executives whom met with Vice President Cheney in April 2001 contained maps of Iraqi oil fields. http://www.judicialwatch.org/071703.b_PR.shtml[^] This sheds serious doubts about the credibility of both leaders. Do you see this as something that should cost both officials their elected positions in the next elections?
I think that he was the source of the claim that the government had exaggerated intelligence evidence on Iraq WMD (the BBC has just put out a statement identifying him as the source) and the enormity of what he had done dawned on him and he couldn't handle the pressure. When Daniel Elsberg released the Pentagon Papers to the public (revealing classified information on Vietnam), he lost his career and almost all his friends. It is a big deal for anyone to reveal intelligence-related information that is unfavourable to the government. John Carson
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My view it's most likely they dug up something dirty in his life, and cornered him.
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenI'm with you on this one. It will probably come out in the next few months. J
"I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees."
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I think that he was the source of the claim that the government had exaggerated intelligence evidence on Iraq WMD (the BBC has just put out a statement identifying him as the source) and the enormity of what he had done dawned on him and he couldn't handle the pressure. When Daniel Elsberg released the Pentagon Papers to the public (revealing classified information on Vietnam), he lost his career and almost all his friends. It is a big deal for anyone to reveal intelligence-related information that is unfavourable to the government. John Carson
John Carson wrote: It is a big deal for anyone to reveal intelligence-related information that is unfavourable to the government. but on the flip side. Some could also look at him as a courageous modern hero. which would be enough for me not to kill myself if I were in his shoes.:| JoeSox still:suss: Later,
JoeSox
www.humanaiproject.org "Dream as if you'll live forever; live as if you'll die tomorrow." - James Dean(ISTP) -
John Carson wrote: It is a big deal for anyone to reveal intelligence-related information that is unfavourable to the government. but on the flip side. Some could also look at him as a courageous modern hero. which would be enough for me not to kill myself if I were in his shoes.:| JoeSox still:suss: Later,
JoeSox
www.humanaiproject.org "Dream as if you'll live forever; live as if you'll die tomorrow." - James Dean(ISTP)JoeSox wrote: but on the flip side. Some could also look at him as a courageous modern hero. which would be enough for me not to kill myself if I were in his shoes. I agree. But the pressure on him was nevertheless very intense. Anyone would find it stressful and some people would find it unbearably so. John Carson
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I seriously doubt it. How does this development bode for Tony Blair? Can he be a viable leader among suspicion that assassins had a hand in Kelly's untimely death? The Iraqi conflict seems to share a similarity with the Vietnam War in that it was started under false pretenses, e.g. Vietnam was predicated on the assumption the US ships were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin. On the United States side, a group has managed to retrieve several documents that oil executives whom met with Vice President Cheney in April 2001 contained maps of Iraqi oil fields. http://www.judicialwatch.org/071703.b_PR.shtml[^] This sheds serious doubts about the credibility of both leaders. Do you see this as something that should cost both officials their elected positions in the next elections?
Yes, he did kill himself. Why are you so sure he didn't? Are you privy to some top-secret information? For whatever reason, this man took his own life - a tragic situation that could have been avoided - and the BBC, Blair and his cronies should be ashamed. However, suggesting that he was murdered beased on no evidence whatsoever is a little hard to swallow. Still, I realise that some people get a kick of of these crackpot conspiracy theories, but if you saw any of the TV footage of Dr Kelly at the recent tribunal (looking into the governments WMD "evidence") you could see he was a man totally out of his depth. It was rumoured that he could of been threatened with losting his job and his pension rights - this plus being in the public spotlight would be enough to explain why he wanted to kill himself. He also practised a religion that specifically allows for suicide. Looks like this story is being reported completely differently outside of the UK if people really think he was killed. However, I think this is it for Blair - and probably his government. I will be surprised if Blair makes it through the rest of the year as PM - the knives are well and truly out. However, if he goes I think a general election should be called.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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My view it's most likely they dug up something dirty in his life, and cornered him.
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenMore likely they threatened him with his job and pension rights. Here was a man totally unconmfortable with all the publicity - perhaps this coupled with threats of dismissal was enough to send him over the edge.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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Yes, he did kill himself. Why are you so sure he didn't? Are you privy to some top-secret information? For whatever reason, this man took his own life - a tragic situation that could have been avoided - and the BBC, Blair and his cronies should be ashamed. However, suggesting that he was murdered beased on no evidence whatsoever is a little hard to swallow. Still, I realise that some people get a kick of of these crackpot conspiracy theories, but if you saw any of the TV footage of Dr Kelly at the recent tribunal (looking into the governments WMD "evidence") you could see he was a man totally out of his depth. It was rumoured that he could of been threatened with losting his job and his pension rights - this plus being in the public spotlight would be enough to explain why he wanted to kill himself. He also practised a religion that specifically allows for suicide. Looks like this story is being reported completely differently outside of the UK if people really think he was killed. However, I think this is it for Blair - and probably his government. I will be surprised if Blair makes it through the rest of the year as PM - the knives are well and truly out. However, if he goes I think a general election should be called.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: However, suggesting that he was murdered beased on no evidence whatsoever is a little hard to swallow. Still, I realise that some people get a kick of of these crackpot conspiracy theories, but if you saw any of the TV footage of Dr Kelly at the recent tribunal (looking into the governments WMD "evidence") you could see he was a man totally out of his depth. It was rumoured that he could of been threatened with losting his job and his pension rights - this plus being in the public spotlight would be enough to explain why he wanted to kill himself. He also practised a religion that specifically allows for suicide. Robert, I can't agree with you at all I'm afraid. I don't for one second, believe he was murdered, but I also do not believe he took his own life and it will take a considerable amount of evidence to prove either case to me. The fact is, he was no ordinary man as I realised having read his profile and what others said about him. I simply do not believe that: a) Such a man would take his own life even under what some would call "intolerable pressure" b) Such a man would come up with a more creative method of killing himself. Slashing his wrist and taking some basic painkillers? This man was chief science officer at Britain's Natural Environment Research Council Institute of Virology and eventually head of microbiology at Porton Down! "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can." "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
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More likely they threatened him with his job and pension rights. Here was a man totally unconmfortable with all the publicity - perhaps this coupled with threats of dismissal was enough to send him over the edge.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
I believe this is very unlikely. Such a man would be able to walk away from his job and take a Directorship on the board of any one of many companies happy to have such a dedicated professional. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can." "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: However, suggesting that he was murdered beased on no evidence whatsoever is a little hard to swallow. Still, I realise that some people get a kick of of these crackpot conspiracy theories, but if you saw any of the TV footage of Dr Kelly at the recent tribunal (looking into the governments WMD "evidence") you could see he was a man totally out of his depth. It was rumoured that he could of been threatened with losting his job and his pension rights - this plus being in the public spotlight would be enough to explain why he wanted to kill himself. He also practised a religion that specifically allows for suicide. Robert, I can't agree with you at all I'm afraid. I don't for one second, believe he was murdered, but I also do not believe he took his own life and it will take a considerable amount of evidence to prove either case to me. The fact is, he was no ordinary man as I realised having read his profile and what others said about him. I simply do not believe that: a) Such a man would take his own life even under what some would call "intolerable pressure" b) Such a man would come up with a more creative method of killing himself. Slashing his wrist and taking some basic painkillers? This man was chief science officer at Britain's Natural Environment Research Council Institute of Virology and eventually head of microbiology at Porton Down! "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can." "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
This was man who may well of been threatened with the loss of his job, loss of his pension (and after 30-odd years that would of left him totally screwed) and, according to some reports today, the MoD may have threatened to prosecute him - meaning he could of ended up in prison - or at the very least with a criminal record, meaning he would never work again. And you don't think that is enough for him to take his own life? Did you see him when he appeared in front of the select comittee? He looked totally out of his depth. He had been told that his name wouldn't be released - but it was - and the pressure on him must of been enormous. I have no doubts in my mind that he took his own life. You don't believe that he took his own life, and you don't think he was murdered? Errr ... what's left? As for "finding a more creative way to kill himself" - what a totally crass comment to make. As if a man at the end of his tether would waste time thinking up a more exotic way of dying.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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I believe this is very unlikely. Such a man would be able to walk away from his job and take a Directorship on the board of any one of many companies happy to have such a dedicated professional. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can." "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
Not if the MoD prosecuted him and he ended with a criminal record. Stop looking for conspiracy theories that aren't there - yes, his treatment has been disgusting and governments have been brought down by less, but the man took his own life.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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Not if the MoD prosecuted him and he ended with a criminal record. Stop looking for conspiracy theories that aren't there - yes, his treatment has been disgusting and governments have been brought down by less, but the man took his own life.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Ha! I'm not looking for conspiracy theories, that's not my job. What I'm saying is that it sounds very unlikely, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm a conspiracy theorist! I just require proof before I blindly believe what I'm being told. As for him being prosecuted and receiving a criminal record, I doubt that would happen and I actually think to suggest that there was even a possibility that it would, is FUD. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can." "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
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This was man who may well of been threatened with the loss of his job, loss of his pension (and after 30-odd years that would of left him totally screwed) and, according to some reports today, the MoD may have threatened to prosecute him - meaning he could of ended up in prison - or at the very least with a criminal record, meaning he would never work again. And you don't think that is enough for him to take his own life? Did you see him when he appeared in front of the select comittee? He looked totally out of his depth. He had been told that his name wouldn't be released - but it was - and the pressure on him must of been enormous. I have no doubts in my mind that he took his own life. You don't believe that he took his own life, and you don't think he was murdered? Errr ... what's left? As for "finding a more creative way to kill himself" - what a totally crass comment to make. As if a man at the end of his tether would waste time thinking up a more exotic way of dying.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
No I don't believe that would have been enough and to suggest it is is just incredible. Even if the MoD tried to play such an unwise card, he would be the sort of man to fight it and even if there is a point at which such a person would have snapped under the pressure, it certainly wouldn't have been until there was a lot *more* pressure than was being exerted a few days ago. I'm sorry, but you simply don't know what pressure he was under, you don't know the man, and you seem to be too ready to accept the facts at mere face value. I don't and I'd prefer to wait until it's played out a bit further before dismissing peoples' uncertainty about what actually happened. Oh and just so you know: "Downing Street said Dr Kelly had been given "a verbal reprimand" about talking to the press by the MoD, but denied any threat being issued to his pension." Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: I have no doubts in my mind that he took his own life. God forbid you ever make it to jury duty. Tell you what though, how about you and everybody else check out this link from the BBC, entitled "Gentle man with a core of steel" and then decide whether or not this man was likely to resort to suicide: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3079775.stm[^] Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:You don't believe that he took his own life, and you don't think he was murdered? Errr ... what's left? I don't know! Can you not deal with that? I really don't know yet, and I'm not prepared to decide either way until I've heard a *lot* more. I refuse to accept the facts at mere face value, I prefer to wait for the results of further research... Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:As for "finding a more creative way to kill himself" - what a totally crass comment to make. As if a man at the end of his tether would waste time thinking up a more exotic way of dying. "Creative" does not mean "exotic" in this context. He was a very intelligent man with a great deal of scientific knowledge. His creativity would be demonstrated by the method he chose, something which would cause him the least pain/discomfort and/or was an efficient method - certainly not sawing his own wrist open with a knife and taking some simple headache tablets. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can
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No I don't believe that would have been enough and to suggest it is is just incredible. Even if the MoD tried to play such an unwise card, he would be the sort of man to fight it and even if there is a point at which such a person would have snapped under the pressure, it certainly wouldn't have been until there was a lot *more* pressure than was being exerted a few days ago. I'm sorry, but you simply don't know what pressure he was under, you don't know the man, and you seem to be too ready to accept the facts at mere face value. I don't and I'd prefer to wait until it's played out a bit further before dismissing peoples' uncertainty about what actually happened. Oh and just so you know: "Downing Street said Dr Kelly had been given "a verbal reprimand" about talking to the press by the MoD, but denied any threat being issued to his pension." Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: I have no doubts in my mind that he took his own life. God forbid you ever make it to jury duty. Tell you what though, how about you and everybody else check out this link from the BBC, entitled "Gentle man with a core of steel" and then decide whether or not this man was likely to resort to suicide: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3079775.stm[^] Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:You don't believe that he took his own life, and you don't think he was murdered? Errr ... what's left? I don't know! Can you not deal with that? I really don't know yet, and I'm not prepared to decide either way until I've heard a *lot* more. I refuse to accept the facts at mere face value, I prefer to wait for the results of further research... Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:As for "finding a more creative way to kill himself" - what a totally crass comment to make. As if a man at the end of his tether would waste time thinking up a more exotic way of dying. "Creative" does not mean "exotic" in this context. He was a very intelligent man with a great deal of scientific knowledge. His creativity would be demonstrated by the method he chose, something which would cause him the least pain/discomfort and/or was an efficient method - certainly not sawing his own wrist open with a knife and taking some simple headache tablets. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can
phykell wrote: "Creative" does not mean "exotic" in this context. He was a very intelligent man with a great deal of scientific knowledge. His creativity would be demonstrated by the method he chose, something which would cause him the least pain/discomfort and/or was an efficient method - certainly not sawing his own wrist open with a knife and taking some simple headache tablets. Once again you demonstrate your desire to find a conspiracy where there is none. These comments are absolutely mindboggling - and, quite frankly, bizarre. How the hell can you presume that such a man would choose a more elaborate method to kill himself? This isn't a bloody Hollywood movie. Headache tablets? Co-proxamyl is a very strong painkiller. Neck a few of those and you won't feel a thing when you cut your wrists. He killed himself. Live with it.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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phykell wrote: "Creative" does not mean "exotic" in this context. He was a very intelligent man with a great deal of scientific knowledge. His creativity would be demonstrated by the method he chose, something which would cause him the least pain/discomfort and/or was an efficient method - certainly not sawing his own wrist open with a knife and taking some simple headache tablets. Once again you demonstrate your desire to find a conspiracy where there is none. These comments are absolutely mindboggling - and, quite frankly, bizarre. How the hell can you presume that such a man would choose a more elaborate method to kill himself? This isn't a bloody Hollywood movie. Headache tablets? Co-proxamyl is a very strong painkiller. Neck a few of those and you won't feel a thing when you cut your wrists. He killed himself. Live with it.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Once again you demonstrate your desire to find a conspiracy where there is none. I don't "desire" any such thing, I simply refuse to make a judgement based on the so-called facts available. Isn't it a good job that the authorities take my view rather than yours and consider that the events are worthy of investigation. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: These comments are absolutely mindboggling - and, quite frankly, bizarre. How the hell can you presume that such a man would choose a more elaborate method to kill himself? This isn't a bloody Hollywood movie. Swearing at me? Is this some sort of personal crusade for you? I never said "elaborate" and I never said "exotic", these are your words and your misinterpretation, deliberate or otherwise. Don't put words into my mouth. I merely said that such a man would be able to think of a better method than the one he supposedly used. After all, tablets and/or slashing one wrist are notoriously inefficient, arguably ineffective and potentially very painful. Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Headache tablets? Co-proxamyl is a very strong painkiller. Neck a few of those and you won't feel a thing when you cut your wrists. I'm not so sure. I would've thought the only way you could avoid pain using tablets is to take so many that you lose consciousness and then you could hardly slash your own wrists could you? However, I do not have a medical background and I would be happy to be proved wrong on this. Do you know any better? "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can." "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."