The legal situation in America
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I'd say the following article (NOTE: it's 3 separate pages, and quite long) does a pretty good job of defining the legal sitation in America. You know, the situation where everybody is being sued by just about everybody else because <ActionX> (self-imposed, a lot of the time) caused <RidiculousGrievanceY>. I think it's utterly ridiculous and atrocious that some of these lawsuits are allowed, what do you guys think? http://www.msnbc.com/news/1002274.asp[^] Chris Richardson
Chris Richardson wrote: I think it's utterly ridiculous and atrocious that some of these lawsuits are allowed, what do you guys think? Sure, but what's a better solution?:confused::~ :sigh: Later, JoeSox "That sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me." -- Morpheus, The Matrix Reloaded joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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I'd say the following article (NOTE: it's 3 separate pages, and quite long) does a pretty good job of defining the legal sitation in America. You know, the situation where everybody is being sued by just about everybody else because <ActionX> (self-imposed, a lot of the time) caused <RidiculousGrievanceY>. I think it's utterly ridiculous and atrocious that some of these lawsuits are allowed, what do you guys think? http://www.msnbc.com/news/1002274.asp[^] Chris Richardson
Quick synopsis: Some people are fucking idiots, and they ruin it for the rest of us. X| --Mike-- Ericahist | CP SearchBar v2.0.2 | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber There is a saying in statistics that a million monkeys pounding on typewriters would eventually create a work of Shakespeare. Thanks to the Internet, we now know that this is not true.
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Chris Richardson wrote: I think it's utterly ridiculous and atrocious that some of these lawsuits are allowed, what do you guys think? Sure, but what's a better solution?:confused::~ :sigh: Later, JoeSox "That sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me." -- Morpheus, The Matrix Reloaded joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
I write software. My time is taken up doing what I do, not what congressmen are supposed to do. If I spent my time thinking of solutions to these problems (and I'm probably not even educated enough in these areas to come up with a real solution), I wouldn't be a programmer, I'd be a lawyer. It's sad, I know, but I feel it's my right to be upset about it even if I can't come up with a solution. Chris Richardson
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Quick synopsis: Some people are fucking idiots, and they ruin it for the rest of us. X| --Mike-- Ericahist | CP SearchBar v2.0.2 | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber There is a saying in statistics that a million monkeys pounding on typewriters would eventually create a work of Shakespeare. Thanks to the Internet, we now know that this is not true.
X| X| X| is definately the right emoticon, that's for sure. I wish congress could come up with a way to stop the legal madness though, it's really driving a lot of people in this country crazy. Michael Dunn wrote: Some people are f***ing idiots, and they ruin it for the rest of us. I definately agree with you on this; glad to see I'm not the only one. :cheers: Chris Richardson
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I write software. My time is taken up doing what I do, not what congressmen are supposed to do. If I spent my time thinking of solutions to these problems (and I'm probably not even educated enough in these areas to come up with a real solution), I wouldn't be a programmer, I'd be a lawyer. It's sad, I know, but I feel it's my right to be upset about it even if I can't come up with a solution. Chris Richardson
Chris Richardson wrote: It's sad, I know, but I feel it's my right to be upset about it even if I can't come up with a solution. How about becoming a Software Prosecutor Developer:~ :cool: "..."There are researchers who want to build software for lawyers to improve information retrieval, dispose of routine tasks more efficiently, sift through evidence and build a convincing argument to present before a judge and jury," says Loui, an expert in A.I., legal reasoning and the philosophy of computing. and law "You have the modern versions of boilerplate contracts that build and manage expert systems and routinely adapt prior work for new clients, and two large retrieval systems, Westlaw and Lexis that are now subject to pressures to improve their technology. All of this is based partly on A.I. Things are definitely changing. The saying is ' old lawyers don't type.'..." http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-06/wuis-dsn062501.php[^] Later, JoeSox "That sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me." -- Morpheus, The Matrix Reloaded joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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I'd say the following article (NOTE: it's 3 separate pages, and quite long) does a pretty good job of defining the legal sitation in America. You know, the situation where everybody is being sued by just about everybody else because <ActionX> (self-imposed, a lot of the time) caused <RidiculousGrievanceY>. I think it's utterly ridiculous and atrocious that some of these lawsuits are allowed, what do you guys think? http://www.msnbc.com/news/1002274.asp[^] Chris Richardson
Okay. I have to throw out my little idea here. Such ridiculous lawsuits as
- People sueing baby stroller manufactuerers because they accidently shut their baby. Claim it was the manufactuerer's fault because there was no warning label
- Woman sueing McDonald's because she didn't realize the coffee was hot and it burnt her
These people have prompted a new invention in my mind. It's call the darwin gun. Bailifs in civil court (and possibly criminal court) should all be equiped with this gun. When the plaintiff brings a suit such as those above they should be shot with the darwin gun. While producing no outward harm the darwin gun will sterilize the individual and thus remove their genes from future generations of the gene pool. Jared jparsons@jparsons.org www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte477n
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I'd say the following article (NOTE: it's 3 separate pages, and quite long) does a pretty good job of defining the legal sitation in America. You know, the situation where everybody is being sued by just about everybody else because <ActionX> (self-imposed, a lot of the time) caused <RidiculousGrievanceY>. I think it's utterly ridiculous and atrocious that some of these lawsuits are allowed, what do you guys think? http://www.msnbc.com/news/1002274.asp[^] Chris Richardson
Chris Richardson wrote: what do you guys think? I think that this bullshit has to end. There is no such thing as a risk-free existence, and the trend today seems to be to attempt to create such a fantasy. For every stupid act, the law seems to be able to find some third party accountable. That's wrong - pure and simple. I was raised to believe that my every act will result in consequences, and that I am ultimately responsible for each and every one of those outcomes. I still believe that this is correct thinking, and no amount of brainwashing by Liberal idiots will ever change that. No one but me is responsible for the life I have been dealt, and it is my responsibilty to deal with it as best as I am able. Once upon a time our courts were able to toss out specious claims as frivolous litigation; today I think that they are constrained by social conventions so that they no longer feel free to exercise the jurisprudence that they are constitutionally required to enforce. It's a nasty situation, and a problem that I don't think will be easy to solve. This country was founded on the joint principles of individual freedom and individual responsibility, and we are rapidly losing those values. I'm not smart enough to solve the problem, but I am smart enough (and old enough) to recognize that we are so much poorer a nation because of the trends that have become popular in the past 30 years. It's a sad thing to watch a great nation die, but we are, in fact, dying of internal decrepitude. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
Chris Richardson wrote: what do you guys think? I think that this bullshit has to end. There is no such thing as a risk-free existence, and the trend today seems to be to attempt to create such a fantasy. For every stupid act, the law seems to be able to find some third party accountable. That's wrong - pure and simple. I was raised to believe that my every act will result in consequences, and that I am ultimately responsible for each and every one of those outcomes. I still believe that this is correct thinking, and no amount of brainwashing by Liberal idiots will ever change that. No one but me is responsible for the life I have been dealt, and it is my responsibilty to deal with it as best as I am able. Once upon a time our courts were able to toss out specious claims as frivolous litigation; today I think that they are constrained by social conventions so that they no longer feel free to exercise the jurisprudence that they are constitutionally required to enforce. It's a nasty situation, and a problem that I don't think will be easy to solve. This country was founded on the joint principles of individual freedom and individual responsibility, and we are rapidly losing those values. I'm not smart enough to solve the problem, but I am smart enough (and old enough) to recognize that we are so much poorer a nation because of the trends that have become popular in the past 30 years. It's a sad thing to watch a great nation die, but we are, in fact, dying of internal decrepitude. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Well I'm probably what you'd call a liberal (in the US sense*) but I couldn't agree more with what you say. Coffee is hot, a power drill can seriously destroy your day and an ordinary sense of smell should warn most people that a floor has been washed and careful steps are required. Life is full of risk and part of growing up is to learn the risks. Isn't part of parenting teaching the young to distinguish risks? Teaching that sometimes it IS your fault when bad things happen? *In Australia the words are reversed. The 'liberal' party is historically the party of the right. The 'labour' party is historically of the left. These days, alas, it's hard to tell them apart. Given that Australian governments are always one or 'tother I, as a leftie, found it difficult to vote for either. However I felt that either evil was less evil than the Fred Nile part or One Nation, so the major parties always got my preference over the fringe nuts. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net **Paul Watson wrote:**What sense would you most dislike loosing? Ian Darling replied. Telepathy Then I'd no longer be able to find out everyones dirty little secrets The Lounge, December 4 2003
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Chris Richardson wrote: what do you guys think? I think that this bullshit has to end. There is no such thing as a risk-free existence, and the trend today seems to be to attempt to create such a fantasy. For every stupid act, the law seems to be able to find some third party accountable. That's wrong - pure and simple. I was raised to believe that my every act will result in consequences, and that I am ultimately responsible for each and every one of those outcomes. I still believe that this is correct thinking, and no amount of brainwashing by Liberal idiots will ever change that. No one but me is responsible for the life I have been dealt, and it is my responsibilty to deal with it as best as I am able. Once upon a time our courts were able to toss out specious claims as frivolous litigation; today I think that they are constrained by social conventions so that they no longer feel free to exercise the jurisprudence that they are constitutionally required to enforce. It's a nasty situation, and a problem that I don't think will be easy to solve. This country was founded on the joint principles of individual freedom and individual responsibility, and we are rapidly losing those values. I'm not smart enough to solve the problem, but I am smart enough (and old enough) to recognize that we are so much poorer a nation because of the trends that have become popular in the past 30 years. It's a sad thing to watch a great nation die, but we are, in fact, dying of internal decrepitude. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: This country was founded on the joint principles of individual freedom and individual responsibility, and we are rapidly losing those values. Sadly, the UK is catching up. There are some small firms that have shut down because their insurance costs have soared even though employees were willing to sign waivers :mad: The tigress is here :-D
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I'd say the following article (NOTE: it's 3 separate pages, and quite long) does a pretty good job of defining the legal sitation in America. You know, the situation where everybody is being sued by just about everybody else because <ActionX> (self-imposed, a lot of the time) caused <RidiculousGrievanceY>. I think it's utterly ridiculous and atrocious that some of these lawsuits are allowed, what do you guys think? http://www.msnbc.com/news/1002274.asp[^] Chris Richardson
Sadly we are following the same path, people being less and less responsible and trying systematically to find a "responsible person" (or a scapegoat, as you wish) for their problems. However, some factors are limiting this tendency, as the interdiction for lawyers to make advertisements, or forbidding them to earn a percentage of what they "gain" for their clients from the court. Moreover, having professional judges instead of a "civilian jury" (except in case of crimes: murder, rape...) limits IMO the consequences of futile lawsuits.
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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Chris Richardson wrote: what do you guys think? I think that this bullshit has to end. There is no such thing as a risk-free existence, and the trend today seems to be to attempt to create such a fantasy. For every stupid act, the law seems to be able to find some third party accountable. That's wrong - pure and simple. I was raised to believe that my every act will result in consequences, and that I am ultimately responsible for each and every one of those outcomes. I still believe that this is correct thinking, and no amount of brainwashing by Liberal idiots will ever change that. No one but me is responsible for the life I have been dealt, and it is my responsibilty to deal with it as best as I am able. Once upon a time our courts were able to toss out specious claims as frivolous litigation; today I think that they are constrained by social conventions so that they no longer feel free to exercise the jurisprudence that they are constitutionally required to enforce. It's a nasty situation, and a problem that I don't think will be easy to solve. This country was founded on the joint principles of individual freedom and individual responsibility, and we are rapidly losing those values. I'm not smart enough to solve the problem, but I am smart enough (and old enough) to recognize that we are so much poorer a nation because of the trends that have become popular in the past 30 years. It's a sad thing to watch a great nation die, but we are, in fact, dying of internal decrepitude. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Well said, You have my 5. "Don't be so anti-american, would you? KaЯl (to Paul Watson on Baseball Bats) 26 Nov '03 "
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Well I'm probably what you'd call a liberal (in the US sense*) but I couldn't agree more with what you say. Coffee is hot, a power drill can seriously destroy your day and an ordinary sense of smell should warn most people that a floor has been washed and careful steps are required. Life is full of risk and part of growing up is to learn the risks. Isn't part of parenting teaching the young to distinguish risks? Teaching that sometimes it IS your fault when bad things happen? *In Australia the words are reversed. The 'liberal' party is historically the party of the right. The 'labour' party is historically of the left. These days, alas, it's hard to tell them apart. Given that Australian governments are always one or 'tother I, as a leftie, found it difficult to vote for either. However I felt that either evil was less evil than the Fred Nile part or One Nation, so the major parties always got my preference over the fringe nuts. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net **Paul Watson wrote:**What sense would you most dislike loosing? Ian Darling replied. Telepathy Then I'd no longer be able to find out everyones dirty little secrets The Lounge, December 4 2003
Rob Manderson wrote: Isn't part of parenting teaching the young to distinguish risks? I agree, the problem is with no one taking accountability then you can not relize you did not teach this and the young adults have no concept of being at fault. It is allways the other person. My wife was just hit by a young man running a stop sign. He claims he stopped for it but the fact that he drove over the hood of her car tells me he was going 40+ and could not have stoped. He contends it was my wifes fault because if she had not be driving as fast as she was, he would have made it. She typically does about 30 MPH in residential areas with no children visible (it was noon time.) "Don't be so anti-american, would you? KaЯl (to Paul Watson on Baseball Bats) 26 Nov '03 "
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X| X| X| is definately the right emoticon, that's for sure. I wish congress could come up with a way to stop the legal madness though, it's really driving a lot of people in this country crazy. Michael Dunn wrote: Some people are f***ing idiots, and they ruin it for the rest of us. I definately agree with you on this; glad to see I'm not the only one. :cheers: Chris Richardson
Chris Richardson wrote: I wish congress could come up with a way to stop the legal madness... Congress is part of the reason for such madness! The current trend in the US is to favor big businesses (ex: RIAA and MPAA lately!). Such corporations are parading all over the US citizens. In other situations, Congress has awarded unconstitutional rights to several government agencies like the FBI because they used the 9/11 bombing as an excuse and too many Americans are either to complacent to care, or too stupid to realize what's happening to their rights (usually the latter case). This country's politicians no longer serves the people that elected them - they serve those who line their pockets with extra money. And since they are doing everything in their power to move that money from individuals to big business - and doing nothing to stop all the business from leaving America - the people they are supposed to serve don't have the money to "persuade" the politicians to uphold their rights and freedoms (call them the anti-Robin Hoods). But, I better be careful and say no more. Thanks to Congress and the powers they've awarded certain agencies, I'm sure Eschelon (or whatever they have these days) is logging this as I post it.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.21 GCS/G/MU d- s: a- C++++ UL@ P++(+++) L+(--) E--- W+++ N++ o+ K? w++++ O- M(+) V? PS-- PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5 X+++ R+@ tv+ b(-)>b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>+++ h---* r+++ y+++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Chris Richardson wrote: I wish congress could come up with a way to stop the legal madness... Congress is part of the reason for such madness! The current trend in the US is to favor big businesses (ex: RIAA and MPAA lately!). Such corporations are parading all over the US citizens. In other situations, Congress has awarded unconstitutional rights to several government agencies like the FBI because they used the 9/11 bombing as an excuse and too many Americans are either to complacent to care, or too stupid to realize what's happening to their rights (usually the latter case). This country's politicians no longer serves the people that elected them - they serve those who line their pockets with extra money. And since they are doing everything in their power to move that money from individuals to big business - and doing nothing to stop all the business from leaving America - the people they are supposed to serve don't have the money to "persuade" the politicians to uphold their rights and freedoms (call them the anti-Robin Hoods). But, I better be careful and say no more. Thanks to Congress and the powers they've awarded certain agencies, I'm sure Eschelon (or whatever they have these days) is logging this as I post it.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.21 GCS/G/MU d- s: a- C++++ UL@ P++(+++) L+(--) E--- W+++ N++ o+ K? w++++ O- M(+) V? PS-- PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5 X+++ R+@ tv+ b(-)>b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>+++ h---* r+++ y+++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Chris Richardson wrote: I wish congress could come up with a way to stop the legal madness... Heath Stewart wrote: Congress is part of the reason for such madness! ..... This country's politicians no longer serves the people that elected them - they serve those who line their pockets with extra money. And since they are doing everything in their power to move that money from individuals to big business But in all of his examples, the money was moving from big business and government to the people......
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Well I'm probably what you'd call a liberal (in the US sense*) but I couldn't agree more with what you say. Coffee is hot, a power drill can seriously destroy your day and an ordinary sense of smell should warn most people that a floor has been washed and careful steps are required. Life is full of risk and part of growing up is to learn the risks. Isn't part of parenting teaching the young to distinguish risks? Teaching that sometimes it IS your fault when bad things happen? *In Australia the words are reversed. The 'liberal' party is historically the party of the right. The 'labour' party is historically of the left. These days, alas, it's hard to tell them apart. Given that Australian governments are always one or 'tother I, as a leftie, found it difficult to vote for either. However I felt that either evil was less evil than the Fred Nile part or One Nation, so the major parties always got my preference over the fringe nuts. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net **Paul Watson wrote:**What sense would you most dislike loosing? Ian Darling replied. Telepathy Then I'd no longer be able to find out everyones dirty little secrets The Lounge, December 4 2003
Rob Manderson wrote: Isn't part of parenting teaching the young to distinguish risks? Teaching that sometimes it IS your fault when bad things happen? Absolutely! Parents are the first and best source of personal values; the courts should be the last resort. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
Roger Wright wrote: This country was founded on the joint principles of individual freedom and individual responsibility, and we are rapidly losing those values. Sadly, the UK is catching up. There are some small firms that have shut down because their insurance costs have soared even though employees were willing to sign waivers :mad: The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote: some small firms that have shut down because their insurance costs have soared Yup. That's been happening here for years. It's absurd, but I don't see any easy ways to reverse the trend.:( "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
Chris Richardson wrote: I wish congress could come up with a way to stop the legal madness... Congress is part of the reason for such madness! The current trend in the US is to favor big businesses (ex: RIAA and MPAA lately!). Such corporations are parading all over the US citizens. In other situations, Congress has awarded unconstitutional rights to several government agencies like the FBI because they used the 9/11 bombing as an excuse and too many Americans are either to complacent to care, or too stupid to realize what's happening to their rights (usually the latter case). This country's politicians no longer serves the people that elected them - they serve those who line their pockets with extra money. And since they are doing everything in their power to move that money from individuals to big business - and doing nothing to stop all the business from leaving America - the people they are supposed to serve don't have the money to "persuade" the politicians to uphold their rights and freedoms (call them the anti-Robin Hoods). But, I better be careful and say no more. Thanks to Congress and the powers they've awarded certain agencies, I'm sure Eschelon (or whatever they have these days) is logging this as I post it.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.21 GCS/G/MU d- s: a- C++++ UL@ P++(+++) L+(--) E--- W+++ N++ o+ K? w++++ O- M(+) V? PS-- PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5 X+++ R+@ tv+ b(-)>b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>+++ h---* r+++ y+++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Heath Stewart wrote: they are doing everything in their power to move that money from individuals to big business Forty years ago my Dad told me that there is a conspiracy in the US to reduce us to a two-class society, eliminating the middle class entirely. I thought he was overly paranoid then, but over the past 20 years I've been forced by reality to revise that opinion. I'm still not convinced that there is any such overt conspiracy, but events are certainly leading in that direction. I don't think anything short of a revolution will be sufficient to correct the situation, but I somehow can't picture the sheep I'm surrounded by taking up arms to defend their values. Hell, most of them don't care enough to even vote!:mad: "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
Chris Richardson wrote: I wish congress could come up with a way to stop the legal madness... Heath Stewart wrote: Congress is part of the reason for such madness! ..... This country's politicians no longer serves the people that elected them - they serve those who line their pockets with extra money. And since they are doing everything in their power to move that money from individuals to big business But in all of his examples, the money was moving from big business and government to the people......
In whom's examples? If you're referring to the article in question, it actually talks about individuals sueing other individuals, occassionally going after the big companies (only when they think they can win, so it's clearly about money). My comment was more general and didn't refer as much to the article as it did the comment to which I replied.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.21 GCS/G/MU d- s: a- C++++ UL@ P++(+++) L+(--) E--- W+++ N++ o+ K? w++++ O- M(+) V? PS-- PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5 X+++ R+@ tv+ b(-)>b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>+++ h---* r+++ y+++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Heath Stewart wrote: they are doing everything in their power to move that money from individuals to big business Forty years ago my Dad told me that there is a conspiracy in the US to reduce us to a two-class society, eliminating the middle class entirely. I thought he was overly paranoid then, but over the past 20 years I've been forced by reality to revise that opinion. I'm still not convinced that there is any such overt conspiracy, but events are certainly leading in that direction. I don't think anything short of a revolution will be sufficient to correct the situation, but I somehow can't picture the sheep I'm surrounded by taking up arms to defend their values. Hell, most of them don't care enough to even vote!:mad: "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."I agree there's no defined conspiracy - it seems to be more of one of those "unsaid" conspiracies where they're all working toward it, it's just that no one mentions it. I agree - at the cost of getting flagged once more in the FBI or NSA database - that a revolution might help things (and anyone that thinks anarchy is the solution is just whacked!). Basically, if this country was put back into the competent hands of the people themselves, things might be different. Even a reform in the voting system (most people don't vote because they think it doesn't matter...in which case they are right because this is a republic, not a democracy, as shown by the Electoral College)) would help. But, if you've been following articles posted on /. recently, all the E-voting has failed. Why? Because the government keeps picking rediculous machines created by cryptographically-challenged companies! The conspiracy theorist in me says that they're tanking it on purpose so the electoral college can continue to control the votes. Note to FBI or NSA: by "revolution" I was not necessarily meaning a war, just a change in the current system.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.21 GCS/G/MU d- s: a- C++++ UL@ P++(+++) L+(--) E--- W+++ N++ o+ K? w++++ O- M(+) V? PS-- PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5 X+++ R+@ tv+ b(-)>b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>+++ h---* r+++ y+++ -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Sadly we are following the same path, people being less and less responsible and trying systematically to find a "responsible person" (or a scapegoat, as you wish) for their problems. However, some factors are limiting this tendency, as the interdiction for lawyers to make advertisements, or forbidding them to earn a percentage of what they "gain" for their clients from the court. Moreover, having professional judges instead of a "civilian jury" (except in case of crimes: murder, rape...) limits IMO the consequences of futile lawsuits.
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
KaЯl wrote: Moreover, having professional judges instead of a "civilian jury" (except in case of crimes: murder, rape...) limits IMO the consequences of futile lawsuits. We actually have something similar. Civil cases only go to a jury if the parties request it. If no jury then you can have your case assigned to an court where the judge does have expertice. Those cases are usually ones in which the parties truly want an agreed solution vs big bucks for how stupid I am. The frivolous cases always count on jury sympathy so they go that route. "Don't be so anti-american, would you? KaЯl (to Paul Watson on Baseball Bats) 26 Nov '03 "