Re: Here's a religious question...

grape8

1. Why did God condemn Adam/Eve and mankind... to death and eternal suffering because someone ate the wrong apple in the Garden of Eden? God told them before they ate it that "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die". They ate of it and they died (first spiritually and later physically) just like God said. We are under the curse of Adam because we are his decendants. The apostle Paul spent the first 5 chapters of the book of Romans addressing this very issue. What was the big deal about the "apple"? I don't know. But God knew it wasn't a good thing for us and even warned us about it -- obviously we chose not to believe Him or listen to His counsel. 2. Why didn't God just forgive people? Perhaps scrafice a few sheeps as opposed to crucify Jesus? Crucifying a person is a pretty sad thing to do - even if you have the reasons to, you don't do this sort of thing. The real issue here is the Holiness of God. His Holiness demands sinless perfection and absolute justice. If God excused sin He would cease to be Holy. (R.C. Sproul does a much better job on this topic than I.) But this issue is the very crux of Christianity... it's comming face-to-face with the realization that we in our sinful condition, when faced with the judgment of a Holy God, are hopelessly condemned. But the incredible wonder of it all is that God, in His love and mercy towards us, sent His Son Jesus to die in our place (because God has said that the punishment of sin is death) so that the righteous requirements of God's holiness would be satisfied and allow God to extend forgivness to us! Jesus' death allows us to be forgiven. Again, Romans Chapter 5 is relevant. 3. Why did God condemn Moses, deny him of entrance to the Promised Land, for getting pissed off once (stiking the rock, Numbers 20:12)? Part of the answer lies in the fact that the rock, in this context, was symbolic of God and a foreshadowing of Jesus. The other part lies in the fact that God told Moses to speak to the rock, not to strike it. Thus Moses' effectively ended up both disobeying and hitting God in front of all Israel. No small slip considering that Moses was the primary leader of Israel during this time. (I guess you could losely relate it to the CEO spouting off to the Chairman in front of everyone at a company function. The CEO probably wouldn't be around much longer.) 4. Why did God pick Isreal over the rest o

Jason Henderson

Joel Holdsworth wrote: Why couldn't God have sacrificed some sheep instead? Hebrews 10 1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Joel Holdsworth wrote: 4. Why did God pick Isreal over the rest of us? What makes slaughtering of our Egyptian any more legimate than slaughtering of Israelites? Is God a racist? Passover lambs that would be sacrificed were the choice of the flock. They had to be perfect specimins. Since the sacrifice of Jesus is an allusion (is that the right word) to these sacrificial lambs, I would think we could say that the Jews were God's chosen out of the flock of men. They had to be reared up in a special way (as children of God) in order to be the ancestors of Jesus. Also, Abraham was a righteous man in whom God made a promise to all people, that through his "seed" all nations would be blessed. He had to keep his promise.

"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld<

Jason Henderson

Sebastián Benítez wrote: All human being lie. Why shouldn't they? Why would people lie if it will get them killed? Why would Jesus insist that he was the Son of God and keep on antagonizing the Jewish authorities if he knew it would get him hung upon a cross?

"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld

Jason Henderson
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Jason Henderson

Joe Woodbury wrote: the earliest snippet of anything from the New Testament is from the 4th entry CE. Actually I'm pretty sure there is a small section of the apostle of John that has been dated back to around 90-100 A.D. This may have been copied before John died.

"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld

Jason Henderson
blog

Joe Woodbury

Jason Henderson wrote: Actually I'm pretty sure there is a small section of the apostle of John that has been dated back to around 90-100 A.D. I stand corrected. A manuscript dated from 110-120 CE exists containing a few verses of John. There are fragments of other manuscripts dated from the late 2nd and 3rd centuries, though these manuscripts don't always agree. Nevertheless, my original point still stands. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke

peterchen

if yu go up the IQ chain, you can see a tendency to more of a morale codex -and assuming god to be powerful means a) he can afford to be good. Of course doesn't need to be good. However, we live in a world where destruction is easier than construction - If god had enough influence to make this world as is with good intentions, he could have created hell if he's bad-willed. God is less opf a person, more of an icon, a symbol of hope, order and purpose. "Evil gods" appear usually later only to explain the failure of the god guy, and of men.

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Lost User

Beautiful, now after all those fairytales, please tell me why as a church going, bible reading, god believing 9 year old god allowed some sick perverted cunt to sexually molest me many times? Was this just and merciful god just wanting to see how it would affect me? He's ficticious. created soley for the purpose of controlling the uneducated masses many hundreds of years ago. If it turns out that there is an afterlife I will personally walk my way up to heaven snal gods leg off and shove it fair up his arse. If he exists hes a petty pathetic cunt unworthy of life. And by the way I never asked jesus to do nothing for me so I owe him nothing. Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003

Lost User

Jason Henderson wrote: Why would Jesus insist that he was the Son of God and keep on antagonizing the Jewish authorities if he knew it would get him hung upon a cross? Cause he was mentally deficient and didn't understand the whole consequences and repercussions thing? Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003

Joel Holdsworth

I have to say I'm truely sorry for that experiance you're describing in your childhood - I can only imagine how terrible it must have been. But what I will say is this: The world is people who are just as unfortunate as you were and worse. We see people killed, mamed, raped etc. etc. on our TV's every day. So the question is how can I believe in a loving God when I see and experiance so much suffering? My answer to you is this - the world is a fallen place; a place which is not as God meant it to be. The reason the world is not as God meant it to be is because of hamanity's rejection of God's rule in our lives. See, in the world as God meant it to be there wouldn't have been any pain or suffering of any kind, and unfortunatly it is our own obsession with evil that causes all the pain we see in the world. Thing is we've all sinned or thought about it - none of us are what God meant us to be - perfect! But Jesus was sent as a sacrifice to pay for all that; so that the evil we do need no longer be a brick wall between us and God. To you're second part - I'm not sure you're quite correct. If you believe that Christianity among other religions are to manipule poor unsuspection people; that doesn't quite make sense. I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, and there certainly thousands upon thousands of christians with much more brain-power than I have! We're certainly not stupid or uneducated! Was christianity a way to control these unsuspecting followers who bought into the story? I'd say not - certainly the early leaders were prepared to sacrifice everything - their imagr, their reputation, their lives even... but for what for who? If Jesus wasn't who he said he was - the risen Son of God - then the early christians really didn't have a good reason to keep going! Joel Holdsworth

Lost User

Joel Holdsworth wrote: My answer to you is this - the world is a fallen place; a place which is not as God meant it to be. The reason the world is not as God meant it to be is because of hamanity's rejection of God's rule in our lives. See, in the world as God meant it to be there wouldn't have been any pain or suffering of any kind, and unfortunatly it is our own obsession with evil that causes all the pain we see in the world. Thing is we've all sinned or thought about it - none of us are what God meant us to be - perfect! But Jesus was sent as a sacrifice to pay for all that; so that the evil we do need no longer be a brick wall between us and God. SO god must have been a software engineer in a previous gig, still creating a shitload of bugs. If he is as perfect as it is claimed his creations too should have been perfect. Joel Holdsworth wrote: To you're second part - I'm not sure you're quite correct. If you believe that Christianity among other religions are to manipule poor unsuspection people; that doesn't quite make sense. I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, and there certainly thousands upon thousands of christians with much more brain-power than I have! We're certainly not stupid or uneducated! Was christianity a way to control these unsuspecting followers who bought into the story? I'd say not - certainly the early leaders were prepared to sacrifice everything - their imagr, their reputation, their lives even... but for what for who? If Jesus wasn't who he said he was - the risen Son of God - then the early christians really didn't have a good reason to keep going! I believe that the god story was created during the dark ages (or possibly a few years earlier) in England as a way to get all the serfs to fight for the King against his enemies. The uneducated and downtrodden bottom of the foodchain type made up the bulk of England. They only understood that the Lord/Duke/whoever directly above them told them what to do and they better do it or else. They had no concept of England beyond the next town or two. King Whoever-it-was-at-the-time needed a bit of an army to fight off some invading force. His knights and actual army wasn't enough to do it and the Lords/Duke/whoever saw no benefit in them getting into the whole mess. The religious setup of fighting for the almighty omnipresent being was a good way to control the masses. I like the way the church has such a military structure along with the pomp and ceremony. As England set abou

Joel Holdsworth

Michael Martin wrote: SO god must have been a software engineer in a previous gig, still creating a shitload of bugs. If he is as perfect as it is claimed his creations too should have been perfect. Well sort of... But you are not including the idea of free will. God gave us the gift of free will: we are not puppets; and the choices are ours to make - but unfortunatly we choose to reject God. About the second bit: Even if you are along the right lines - there's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that what you described was not the way it was! Dead sea scrolls for example. Joel Holdsworth

J Dunlap

Michael Martin wrote: I believe that the god story was created during the dark ages (or possibly a few years earlier) in England as a way to get all the serfs to fight for the King against his enemies. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Have you ever delved into Roman history, for example? It is quite clear that Christianity existed long before then.

**"If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it." -- Marcus Aurelius

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J Dunlap

Joe Woodbury wrote: We have NO original manuscripts of the prophets. Nada. None. Zero. The earliest version of the Old Testament we currently have dates from the 3rd century BCE, the earliest snippet of anything from the New Testament is from the 4th entry CE. By original I do not mean the ones the prophets themselves wrote - I mean manuscripts that were written by the Jews long before the Christian era. We have a number of manuscripts of the prophets dating to before Christ, including a manuscript of the whole book of Isaiah that was written in 200BC - before Christ!.

**"Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

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Joe Woodbury

jdunlap wrote: We have a number of manuscripts of the prophets dating to before Christ, including a manuscript of the whole book of Isaiah that was written in 200BC - before Christ!. We do! We also have writing even older from Egypt. A few years ago, the oldest known writing was discovered in Pakistan which dates to about 3200 BC. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke

John Carson

grape8 wrote: The real issue here is the Holiness of God. His Holiness demands sinless perfection and absolute justice. Let's see if I have got this right. There are a whole lot of sinful people --- millions of them. So the way to deal with this in order to satisfy the requirements of "absolute justice" was to take someone completely innocent and kill him. Yeah. Sounds fair. John Carson

J Dunlap

Joe Woodbury wrote: We also have writing even older from Egypt. A few years ago, the oldest known writing was discovered in Pakistan which dates to about 3200 BC. OK, but that's beside the point. The point we were disputing is that the prophecies about Jesus in the Bible couldn't have been placed their later by Jesus's followers. If we have copies of the prophets' writings that date from before Jesus was born, then they couldn't have been manipulated to fit the viewpoints of Jesus's followers.

**"To know what is right and not do it is the worst cowardice." -- Confucius

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grape8

You're right. It's not fair at all -- but it's not about fairness, it's about justice. You've actually realize the central theme of the gospel or "Good News" of Jesus Christ... that He died a death He didn't deserve -- on my behalf! This issue is exactly why the Bible states that Jesus is an "offense to the natural mind". It's not a rational proposition; at least from our vantage point. But it pleased God; and He's the One we should be worried about. But that's not the end of it -- you see, this whole thing was God's idea. He unilaterally decided both to redeem sinful man and the mechanics of how it would work. (After all, being God certainly gives Him the perogative to do so.) Actually, the truly amazing thing here is that He decided to redeem us at all... He decided that all who would come to Him must believe what He says is true. We call that faith. And God has very clearly said that without faith you cannot please Him. So God has set the whole thing up -- He sent His only son, Jesus, to pay a debit He did not owe... on our behalf, so that if we would believe, by faith, that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was an acceptable payment of justice to God on our behalf that God would then credit the righteousness of Jesus to us. And that's the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus -- God did all the work and He's willing to give us credit; if we'll only believe. Rick Davis

John Carson

You apparently consider that this sophistry is intellectually credible. I don't. Leaving aside the bizarre distinction you draw between justice and fairness, you were earlier arguing that God had to do things a certain way because of the demands of justice, holiness etc. At the same time, you say that God can waive the rules by imposing a death that was not deserved. What it all comes down to is that you have no coherent explanation for what God does or doesn't do. You simply attempt to rationalise his alleged actions after the fact. Now it is probably possible to have an intellectually coherent position which simply involves deferring to whatever God is alleged to have done. What is neither coherent nor honest is to pretend to be able to explain God's actions and the constraints under which he operates when all the while you are really just deferring to what you believe God has done. John Carson

grape8

Paul, you'll be pleased to know that my wife is right there with you on the "white Jesus" painting! :-D It's one of her most common complaints whenever we see a movie or picture of Him. We've got a "picture of Jesus" in our home and I think the guy in it looks a lot like Chuck Norris! I don't know why we can't paint Him as the Middle Eastern Jew He was. You're in a very difficult situation -- things happened to you as a child that never ever should have happened... and for that I'm truly sorry. Even though I've not walked where you've walked I'd like to share a couple of thoughts with you that hopefully will help... (I'm not trying to preach -- sorry if it comes across as such) 1) We get our initial identity of who God is from our fathers. Whenever our fathers fail us we naturally associate that to God. After all, our fathers are supposed to be the representatives of God in the family -- and you only have to read the papers and watch the news to see how poorly we've done. 2) Why didn't God make them stop? I don't know. Were they wrong? Absolutely. Jesus himself said that anyone who harms a child would have been better off not being born. I interpret that on two levels: One; they must be beyond miserable with themselves to do such a thing (I can't imaging living with the shame and guilt of doing so.) Two; we forget how bad hell is. It's not just a hot place for a while. Rather it's everlasting pain, suffering and torment without time off for good behavior or a chance for parole. So in the end they get it and get it bad. 3) You're faced with issues of unforgiveness -- towards God and towards the perpetrator(s). I don't say that lightly. And I'm sure it's the last thing you want to hear or consider. But you have to know this: all of our sins are as heanous to God as the ones that have been committed against you. And yet God has chosen to forgive us of our sins through faith in Jesus Christ, His Son and Messiah. As a Christian, I'm charged with forgiving others just as Christ forgave me. It's a tall order. Actually, it's impossible without the Holy Spirit. Forgiveness is a divine choice. It's not saying; "It's okay. It doesn't matter." It's saying; "I choose to release you from all the anger, hate, etc. that I have against you because of what you've done to me." It's to our benefit to forgive! By releasing others from there sins against us we free ourselves to get on with our lives and please God in the process. I've never found this to be an easy thing to do because I feel much more justif

Tim Craig

Yeah, here's the rules. You better swallow them whole or ELSE. Be careful, if you don't believe, there's hellfire eternal waiting on you. So what bumpkin isn't going to buy into it? I bypassed the bumpkin stage. :laugh: At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.