I know this has been said before, but...
-
I can sympathize. I hate it when developers whine about something not working, and it turns out they didn't read the documentation, or even MSDN. It makes me feel like yelling "Show some initiative, you mouthbreather!"
>you mouthbreather I take offense at that. *paul breathes heavily* regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Christopher Duncan quoted: "...that would require my explaining Einstein's Fear of Relatives" Crikey! ain't life grand? Einstein says...
-
I just have to say this, even though I know it has been said by others... GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB. Then, when you still can't figure it out, come here and ask everyone what they think your problem might be. I just had to get that out. :beer:
-
I just have to say this, even though I know it has been said by others... GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB. Then, when you still can't figure it out, come here and ask everyone what they think your problem might be. I just had to get that out. :beer:
I agree with your point, but I also have to give newbies the benefit of the doubt. It isn't widely known that MSDN exists, except among those of us who have come to depend on it. I'm surprised to find that there are many people who have never heard of Google! The first time I see someone post a dumb question I try my best to be helpful, and generally include links to useful resources elsewhere on the web. When it goes on and on with no evidence of the poster even trying, then I ignore it. I know that I often post newbie questions - in certain things, I am a newbie, as we all are in some area - but only after trying hard to find answers elsewhere. Still, the questions appear dumb to anyone that knows the answer, and it's impossible to tell if I've actually done my homework and failed to find an answer, or just popped in here to save me some work. If every time I posted a dumb question I got a response of "GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB" I'd very quickly leave this site and never return. Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true... -
I agree with your point, but I also have to give newbies the benefit of the doubt. It isn't widely known that MSDN exists, except among those of us who have come to depend on it. I'm surprised to find that there are many people who have never heard of Google! The first time I see someone post a dumb question I try my best to be helpful, and generally include links to useful resources elsewhere on the web. When it goes on and on with no evidence of the poster even trying, then I ignore it. I know that I often post newbie questions - in certain things, I am a newbie, as we all are in some area - but only after trying hard to find answers elsewhere. Still, the questions appear dumb to anyone that knows the answer, and it's impossible to tell if I've actually done my homework and failed to find an answer, or just popped in here to save me some work. If every time I posted a dumb question I got a response of "GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB" I'd very quickly leave this site and never return. Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true... -
Try replying with this[^] :evil: :-D
"if you vote me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" - Michael P. Butler. Support Bone It's a weird Life
-
I just have to say this, even though I know it has been said by others... GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB. Then, when you still can't figure it out, come here and ask everyone what they think your problem might be. I just had to get that out. :beer:
I thought that one of the primary purposes of CodeProject was to provide an interchange between developers. It would seem to me, in that vein , that if one had a minor peoblem ( no homework please ) posting to one of the forums here would be a quick way to solve that problem without spending a lot of ones time in research. Perhaps I am wrong but I simply do not have the time to become expert in all the different areas of programming and - having long ago found that asking for help does not deflate my ego or cheapen my abilities - I will continue my practice of seeking advice from those who have more knowledge and expertise than I do in particular areas. And if the oppertunity arises for me to assist someone I will do so without disparaging their lack of knowledge in that arena. been there - done that- have the tee shirt. Richard "The man that hath not music in himself and is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; Let no man trust him." Shakespeare
-
I just have to say this, even though I know it has been said by others... GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB. Then, when you still can't figure it out, come here and ask everyone what they think your problem might be. I just had to get that out. :beer:
-
I agree with your point, but I also have to give newbies the benefit of the doubt. It isn't widely known that MSDN exists, except among those of us who have come to depend on it. I'm surprised to find that there are many people who have never heard of Google! The first time I see someone post a dumb question I try my best to be helpful, and generally include links to useful resources elsewhere on the web. When it goes on and on with no evidence of the poster even trying, then I ignore it. I know that I often post newbie questions - in certain things, I am a newbie, as we all are in some area - but only after trying hard to find answers elsewhere. Still, the questions appear dumb to anyone that knows the answer, and it's impossible to tell if I've actually done my homework and failed to find an answer, or just popped in here to save me some work. If every time I posted a dumb question I got a response of "GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB" I'd very quickly leave this site and never return. Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true...I think his point might have been about completely non-programming related questions on C.P. Like: Anyone here know the average flight speed of a south african blue swallow? Kinda stuff. Or "I'm planning on spending thousands of dollars to install critical networking components for my business, rather than hiring someone, doing *any* research or asking an expert, I just thought I would find out what the people on C.P. think" Or "Smoke has started pouring out of the back of my computer and now my left sleeve is on fire, anyone here seen anything like this before and what should I do"
SPAM, the name disgusts/yet, pink is so enticing/and so, I swallow -
I think his point might have been about completely non-programming related questions on C.P. Like: Anyone here know the average flight speed of a south african blue swallow? Kinda stuff. Or "I'm planning on spending thousands of dollars to install critical networking components for my business, rather than hiring someone, doing *any* research or asking an expert, I just thought I would find out what the people on C.P. think" Or "Smoke has started pouring out of the back of my computer and now my left sleeve is on fire, anyone here seen anything like this before and what should I do"
SPAM, the name disgusts/yet, pink is so enticing/and so, I swallowYeah, i hate those too. BTW (in a completely unrelated question), i'm suspicious of the crumbling high-voltage power lines running into my house, and am thinking about re-doing them using pruning shears and the pair of rubber gloves that came with my toilet brush - any suggestions? :rolleyes:
--- the work, which will become a new genre unto itself, will be called... -
I just have to say this, even though I know it has been said by others... GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB. Then, when you still can't figure it out, come here and ask everyone what they think your problem might be. I just had to get that out. :beer:
John Kuhn wrote: Then, when you still can't figure it out, come here and ask everyone what they think your problem might be. :) If I had a dime every time I said that:rolleyes: Later, JoeSox "Only the gentle are ever strong." - James Dean (ISTP) joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
-
I think his point might have been about completely non-programming related questions on C.P. Like: Anyone here know the average flight speed of a south african blue swallow? Kinda stuff. Or "I'm planning on spending thousands of dollars to install critical networking components for my business, rather than hiring someone, doing *any* research or asking an expert, I just thought I would find out what the people on C.P. think" Or "Smoke has started pouring out of the back of my computer and now my left sleeve is on fire, anyone here seen anything like this before and what should I do"
SPAM, the name disgusts/yet, pink is so enticing/and so, I swallowJohn Cardinal wrote: Anyone here know the average flight speed of a south african blue swallow? With or without the coconut? Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted paychecks
-
I agree with your point, but I also have to give newbies the benefit of the doubt. It isn't widely known that MSDN exists, except among those of us who have come to depend on it. I'm surprised to find that there are many people who have never heard of Google! The first time I see someone post a dumb question I try my best to be helpful, and generally include links to useful resources elsewhere on the web. When it goes on and on with no evidence of the poster even trying, then I ignore it. I know that I often post newbie questions - in certain things, I am a newbie, as we all are in some area - but only after trying hard to find answers elsewhere. Still, the questions appear dumb to anyone that knows the answer, and it's impossible to tell if I've actually done my homework and failed to find an answer, or just popped in here to save me some work. If every time I posted a dumb question I got a response of "GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB" I'd very quickly leave this site and never return. Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true...Roger Wright wrote: I posted a dumb question I got a response of "GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB" I'd very quickly leave this site and never return. Roger forget about one or two people. Are you drunk? Roger Wright wrote: It isn't widely known that MSDN exists, except among those of us who have come to depend on it. I'm surprised to find that there are many people who have never heard of Google! You are right. But its not always like that. Some people adapt to ask so many questions like that, even they don't look at MSDN when I say look at that exact class in MSDN to see example right there. I think you are a teacher. Aren't you? Mazy You're face to face, With the man who sold the world - David Bowie
-
Roger Wright wrote: I posted a dumb question I got a response of "GET A BOOK. READ THE HELP. SEARCH THE WEB" I'd very quickly leave this site and never return. Roger forget about one or two people. Are you drunk? Roger Wright wrote: It isn't widely known that MSDN exists, except among those of us who have come to depend on it. I'm surprised to find that there are many people who have never heard of Google! You are right. But its not always like that. Some people adapt to ask so many questions like that, even they don't look at MSDN when I say look at that exact class in MSDN to see example right there. I think you are a teacher. Aren't you? Mazy You're face to face, With the man who sold the world - David Bowie
Mazdak wrote: Are you drunk? Nope. You? :-D Mazdak wrote: I think you are a teacher. Aren't you? Yes, and there are a small number of people who abuse CP and refuse to do their own homework, just like in class. But they are a minority, and easily ignored. Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true... -
I think his point might have been about completely non-programming related questions on C.P. Like: Anyone here know the average flight speed of a south african blue swallow? Kinda stuff. Or "I'm planning on spending thousands of dollars to install critical networking components for my business, rather than hiring someone, doing *any* research or asking an expert, I just thought I would find out what the people on C.P. think" Or "Smoke has started pouring out of the back of my computer and now my left sleeve is on fire, anyone here seen anything like this before and what should I do"
SPAM, the name disgusts/yet, pink is so enticing/and so, I swallowJohn Cardinal wrote: Anyone here know the average flight speed of a south african blue swallow? I do. Or at least, this guy does: http://www.style.org/unladenswallow/[^] (4th link on this[^] search. Amusingly, the 3rd link is to some sort of porn site with the text pasted in a lot, with self referential links to try and boost their google-juice. It seems to have worked :-))
Ian Darling "One of the few systems...which has had “no deaths” in the reliability requirements." - Michael Platt
-
I thought that one of the primary purposes of CodeProject was to provide an interchange between developers. It would seem to me, in that vein , that if one had a minor peoblem ( no homework please ) posting to one of the forums here would be a quick way to solve that problem without spending a lot of ones time in research. Perhaps I am wrong but I simply do not have the time to become expert in all the different areas of programming and - having long ago found that asking for help does not deflate my ego or cheapen my abilities - I will continue my practice of seeking advice from those who have more knowledge and expertise than I do in particular areas. And if the oppertunity arises for me to assist someone I will do so without disparaging their lack of knowledge in that arena. been there - done that- have the tee shirt. Richard "The man that hath not music in himself and is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; Let no man trust him." Shakespeare
Richard, The name of this forum is "The Soapbox - off-topic rants"; I needed to vent, I vented. That being said, it is my belief that I've never disparaged anyone when answering their questions, and I've taken the time to answer even the most basic questions in several message boards. As you point out, no one can be an expert in every aspect of every technology, and sometimes we cannot even achieve complete expertise in areas in which we are totally focused. However, I believe that every programmer carries around a tacit knowledgebase and set of intuitions regarding problems, so that possibly, even subconsciously, we ask ourselves "can I figure this out, or shall I ask for help?" If our answer is the latter, at least when we ask a question, we start from a position of framing the question, and all tacit knowledge and intuition feed into that... you don't start by asking "How do I write a program?" You start by declaring "I am writing a program to do X, and as a part of that program, I need to do Y, which I'm not sure about... how do I do Y?" My frustration with some folks is that they are asking "How do I write a program?" . . . and the simplest questions are often the most difficult and time consuming to answer, possibly impossible to answer in a forum like this one. So, have a good day, and have a :beer:
-
You sir are a genius! (I've been saying that for some time now)
SPAM, the name disgusts/yet, pink is so enticing/and so, I swallow -
I wish I knew if you meant to reply to Richard or to me... it seems likely you were responding to Richard, since he has been around for some time longer.
-
You of course! Only because I agree wholeheartedly. In all other respects I'm not qualified to remark on your intelligence. ;P
SPAM, the name disgusts/yet, pink is so enticing/and so, I swallow -
Richard, The name of this forum is "The Soapbox - off-topic rants"; I needed to vent, I vented. That being said, it is my belief that I've never disparaged anyone when answering their questions, and I've taken the time to answer even the most basic questions in several message boards. As you point out, no one can be an expert in every aspect of every technology, and sometimes we cannot even achieve complete expertise in areas in which we are totally focused. However, I believe that every programmer carries around a tacit knowledgebase and set of intuitions regarding problems, so that possibly, even subconsciously, we ask ourselves "can I figure this out, or shall I ask for help?" If our answer is the latter, at least when we ask a question, we start from a position of framing the question, and all tacit knowledge and intuition feed into that... you don't start by asking "How do I write a program?" You start by declaring "I am writing a program to do X, and as a part of that program, I need to do Y, which I'm not sure about... how do I do Y?" My frustration with some folks is that they are asking "How do I write a program?" . . . and the simplest questions are often the most difficult and time consuming to answer, possibly impossible to answer in a forum like this one. So, have a good day, and have a :beer:
John Kuhn wrote: I believe that every programmer carries around a tacit knowledgebase and set of intuitions regarding problems, so that possibly, even subconsciously, we ask ourselves "can I figure this out, or shall I ask for help?" If our answer is the latter, at least when we ask a question, we start from a position of framing the question, and all tacit knowledge and intuition feed into that As an experiment try asking 5 or 6 programmers that you respect to write a bubble sort, an insertion sort, and a quick sort in the language of their choice uing only primitives without consulting already written code. And if that is too much to ask then simply ask them to describe the alogrithms. As much as it saddens me to say so the days of the "real" programmer is just about over. Most of us today - and I include myself in this description - do not really "program". We evaluate a problem in terms of already written software and our solution set is predicated by that existing codebase. Seldom do we have to construct data structures of any real complexity or delve in the creation or modification of a new or existing algorithms. We are mainly concerned with the GUI and the formatting of the output - everything else is sacrificed on the altar of OOP or ease of maintainance or speed of development or some other thing that has no real place in programming as an art or a profession. How many remember the good old asm days when if you were programming some type of financial application you had to hand code a BCD routine to handle the floating point math - no math processor or even floating point primitives. Or remember when a programmer had to be conversant in binary, octal, and hex just to debug by single stepping thru an assembler. Not that I really miss those days but those of us that lived thru it have a different idea of "programming" than those whos first experience was with a high level language like Basic, pascal, or C++. Where was CP when we really needed it ? Richard "The man that hath not music in himself and is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; Let no man trust him." Shakespeare
-
John Kuhn wrote: I believe that every programmer carries around a tacit knowledgebase and set of intuitions regarding problems, so that possibly, even subconsciously, we ask ourselves "can I figure this out, or shall I ask for help?" If our answer is the latter, at least when we ask a question, we start from a position of framing the question, and all tacit knowledge and intuition feed into that As an experiment try asking 5 or 6 programmers that you respect to write a bubble sort, an insertion sort, and a quick sort in the language of their choice uing only primitives without consulting already written code. And if that is too much to ask then simply ask them to describe the alogrithms. As much as it saddens me to say so the days of the "real" programmer is just about over. Most of us today - and I include myself in this description - do not really "program". We evaluate a problem in terms of already written software and our solution set is predicated by that existing codebase. Seldom do we have to construct data structures of any real complexity or delve in the creation or modification of a new or existing algorithms. We are mainly concerned with the GUI and the formatting of the output - everything else is sacrificed on the altar of OOP or ease of maintainance or speed of development or some other thing that has no real place in programming as an art or a profession. How many remember the good old asm days when if you were programming some type of financial application you had to hand code a BCD routine to handle the floating point math - no math processor or even floating point primitives. Or remember when a programmer had to be conversant in binary, octal, and hex just to debug by single stepping thru an assembler. Not that I really miss those days but those of us that lived thru it have a different idea of "programming" than those whos first experience was with a high level language like Basic, pascal, or C++. Where was CP when we really needed it ? Richard "The man that hath not music in himself and is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; Let no man trust him." Shakespeare
Well, we've certainly wandered far afield from my moment of frustration seeking an easy outlet. As I read your response, then re-read it, I was at first at a loss for words. Later on, my curiousity grew. I began to wonder about the nature of computing and its somewhat quasi-scientific standing as a field of knowledge; it has been my feeling for a long time that programming is part science, part engineering and part craftmanship or artwork. So, I must ask: do you feel that computer programming as a field of knowledge has made progress since the days of hand-coding assembly? And if so, is it better or worse off for the growth and expansion of our knowledge? I, presumably like many others, learned sorting, linked lists, trees, data structures and common algorithms in high school and college computer science courses. Today, after many years, I have rarely had the opportunity or cause to apply those ideas to my work, and I may fall into the experimental group you hypothesize would fail to answer a simple question regarding sorting algorithms. I have been using high-level tools and languages that incorporate tools and features that encapsulate such functions, or eliminate the need altogether, for quite a while. So, it is my impression that these tools and languages, and the references that accompany them, and the body of knowledge available to all of us through books, products, internet and our peers, make us more capable and more productive, and free us from having to re-invent what has come before, and allows us to stand on the shoulders of those who have come before; in short, there is such as thing as progress, and in our case, progress is good. Then again, I could be wrong.
