12 Reasons Same-Sex Marriage will Ruin Society
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John Fisher wrote: but the Creationists that I admire would not do that because of the deception involved. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: That's the funniest thing I've heard in ages. You really believe that don't you? Despite the total lack of "evidence", despite the total lack of legitimate qualification of these quacks and despite the total lack of peer-reviewed scientific papers.
It's extremely difficult for me not to be hurt or angry at your comments. You continue to accuse me of ignorance and unfounded belief. Have you ever seriously considered what the opposition proposes? Have you ever attempted to understand the entire framework, since that is the only way to verify its claims (the same as any scientific theory)? I could make claims that you believe in unfounded, ingorant, misguided, deceptive men's ideas too. But, would that convince you of anything other than that I'm mean-spirited? Bible-believing Creationists are primarily creationist because of belief in the Bible. (Other people are creationists, too though.) The Bible also happens to teach that lying is sin. So, the people who truly believe both (the ones I admire most) wouldn't be intentionally deceptive. No matter what you might think. You also keep saying that there is a "total lack of evidence" for the creationist position. This is patently absurd. Evidence is evidence. Interpretation within a framework is what matters in this sort of discussion. Water is evidence, layers of rock are evidence. Life is evidence. Both sides have the same evidence. Take the evidence and prove that the framework can't adequately explain it -- that's how a debate like this should go. I would like to think that our discussion is fruitful, but another similar response will neccessitate that I stop responding to your posts for now. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek. -
John Fisher wrote: Daniel 4:7-8 is a prophecy, and is using a figure of speech that is quite easy for people to understand. This is not a scientific statement about the shape of the earth, but is everyday language being used to describe the size of a tree. People today still use "the ends of the earth", but there is no such thing, since the earth is a sphere. Well I glad for you that you have the supreme wisdom to tell what parts of the infallible word of god really are supposed to be taken seriously and which are not. You must be extremely wise, wise enough to know the meaning of gods words when she's being delibrately vague. Good job. Perhaps the hating gays part was just a figure of speech? John Fisher wrote: 1Kings 7:23 gives measurements of an object. Just as every measurement you're likely to run into today, they aren't completely precise. So you are telling me that the infallible word of god is only approximate????? Holy crap! What else was only approximate? Perhaps that bit about how evil gays are? :laugh::laugh:
It appears that you have ignored the part of my post which would answer the question you just raised, so I'll post it again. The basic principle of any writing to be understood is to read it at face value. If the text indicates it is allegorical, then it is. If the text indicates it is a scientific statement of fact, then read it that way. If the text is using figurative language to describe something, treat it that way. If the text is giving a general description of sizes and shapes, don't assume it's accurate down to the nano-meter. (Etc.) John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek. -
Ah! First time I've been nabbed by the clickety police. :-O This[^] provides a summary of a few evidences for a young earth. And the Q&A area[^] has most of the scientific articles (as well as some others). This site has a lot of references to other locations, some of which may be more in the style you were looking for. A lot of the information isn't very deep, but there is some in there. (They also publish a "Technical Journal" that is very hard for non-scientists to understand, and serves mostly as a peer-review journal.) John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.What a load of junk, just one example: 10 Dangers of theistic evolution Werner Gitt First published in: Creation Ex Nihilo 17(4):49–51, September–November 1995 The atheistic formula for evolution is: Evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods. In the theistic evolutionary view, God is added: Theistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God. In this system God is not the omnipotent Lord of all things, whose Word has to be taken seriously by all men, but He is integrated into the evolutionary philosophy. This leads to 10 dangers for Christians. So theistic evolution can exist exactly because it challenges their beliefs. What the hell kind of arguement is that? What you say can't be true because it means something I say will have to change? They should try that as a defense in court rooms: "Your honor, I suggest the last witness' testimony be rejected because it makes my client look guilty." That site is so full of nonsense it's laughable.
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What a load of junk, just one example: 10 Dangers of theistic evolution Werner Gitt First published in: Creation Ex Nihilo 17(4):49–51, September–November 1995 The atheistic formula for evolution is: Evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods. In the theistic evolutionary view, God is added: Theistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God. In this system God is not the omnipotent Lord of all things, whose Word has to be taken seriously by all men, but He is integrated into the evolutionary philosophy. This leads to 10 dangers for Christians. So theistic evolution can exist exactly because it challenges their beliefs. What the hell kind of arguement is that? What you say can't be true because it means something I say will have to change? They should try that as a defense in court rooms: "Your honor, I suggest the last witness' testimony be rejected because it makes my client look guilty." That site is so full of nonsense it's laughable.
Haven't you understood any of this? We speak from the basis of one framework of understanding the world (creationism). You speak with a completely different framework in mind (evolutionism). The frameworks are very different, so of course things will initially sound ridiculous. However, the question isn't whether one framework makes sense when analyzed from the perspective of the other. The question is which framework has the fewest problems with the available evidence? Being more familiar with one side and completely unfamiliar with the other puts you in a bad position to be making judgments like this. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek. -
Ah! First time I've been nabbed by the clickety police. :-O This[^] provides a summary of a few evidences for a young earth. And the Q&A area[^] has most of the scientific articles (as well as some others). This site has a lot of references to other locations, some of which may be more in the style you were looking for. A lot of the information isn't very deep, but there is some in there. (They also publish a "Technical Journal" that is very hard for non-scientists to understand, and serves mostly as a peer-review journal.) John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.John Fisher wrote: This[^] provides a summary of a few evidences for a young earth. Well (and I apologise for this, as it's getting late in the UK so I'm cutting this short for now, although I will bookmark that link for further examination later on), looking for resources discussing the first problem on that list (The so called "winding up dilemma"), I cannot find any reference to this dilemma outside creationist literature on googles web search. Google groups is much more enlightening on the subject - this list has been thrown around somewhat, it seems. Most of the refutations there are somewhat short, so I'm not going to claim that it's a bunk claim outright, but the lack of scientific documents covering this dilemma certainly makes the claim look dubious. The other points also appear to have dubious origins or suffer from a lack of data, where later observations obselete the points. The talk.origins newsgroup appears to have several lenghty posts covering the various points on this list. The original author of this list (AFAIK, a D. Russel Humphreys) also appears to have little credibility within the scientific community. Looking for articles on the original article title led me to this[^] page, which appears to be a systematic index of Creationist claims made in various articles (such as the first one specified), and references to discount them. As I haven't spent that long on this, or am an expert in any of these fields, I cannot vouch for the quality of all of these refutations, although I am well-acquainted with some of them. I should state for the record that I do not have a problem with people who wish to believe in Creationism - I just have a problem with Creationists (even those who pretend to hide under the respectable sounding ID banner) who wish to undermine scientific efforts through what appear to be intellectually dishonest and scientifically unsound methods.
Ian Darling "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
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It appears that you have ignored the part of my post which would answer the question you just raised, so I'll post it again. The basic principle of any writing to be understood is to read it at face value. If the text indicates it is allegorical, then it is. If the text indicates it is a scientific statement of fact, then read it that way. If the text is using figurative language to describe something, treat it that way. If the text is giving a general description of sizes and shapes, don't assume it's accurate down to the nano-meter. (Etc.) John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.John Fisher wrote: It appears that you have ignored the part of my post which would answer the question you just raised, so I'll post it again. No you appear to have missed the point. You say the tree thing isn't meant to be taken literally, but yet you claim the whole creationist thing is and the whole gays are evil thing is. How can you claim parts of the bible are literal truth and other parts aren't. Is that arogant of you to the extreme to suppose to know which parts of a supposedly holy text are actually true and which aren't? The tree thing is clearly false, so you write it off as not meaning to be taken literally, the creationism thing is false (despite what you think - the facts speak for themselves) and the majority of biblical scholars have writen that off as being "just a story". So why should we give any credit to anything else in the bible? So much of it is clearly wrong, so why accept any of it all? If I had a science text book with this many errors I'd confine it to my trash can.
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Haven't you understood any of this? We speak from the basis of one framework of understanding the world (creationism). You speak with a completely different framework in mind (evolutionism). The frameworks are very different, so of course things will initially sound ridiculous. However, the question isn't whether one framework makes sense when analyzed from the perspective of the other. The question is which framework has the fewest problems with the available evidence? Being more familiar with one side and completely unfamiliar with the other puts you in a bad position to be making judgments like this. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.My framework springs from the data, it doesn't attempt to fit the data to the theory. My framework makes testible predications and is falsifible, yours if not. Every part of the mechanism of my framework can be demonstrated, no part of yours can. My framework fits neatly within the sum total of human knowledge and is logically consitent, yours is not. You framework requires magic, my requires nothing but math and the laws of physics and chemistry. My framework is subject to peer review and stands up to critism, your is insulated and hidden away whenever somebody tries to challenge you on specific points. My framework can produce evidence to back up it's claims, yours cannot. If my framework is proven to be false, I'll change it, you never will.
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The link you provided certainly is against Behe's book, but I don't see anything that thoroughly debunked it. The links I looked at appeared to each focus one specific argument (or a small subset) of his book rather than the whole of it. Separating things and causing confusion is a common tactic (which I believe you called the "Wedge" strategy :)). BTW, I don't know whether ID people are part of an under-cover creationist agenda, but the Creationists that I admire would not do that because of the deception involved. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.John Fisher wrote: BTW, I don't know whether ID people are part of an under-cover creationist agenda, but the Creationists that I admire would not do that because of the deception involved. I can respect the last part, but the people behind the Wedge strategy would appear to be exactly that - a creationist agenda - the original fulcrum figure of the ID movement (Phillip Johnson) was a convert to Christianity (not necessarily a problem, I will admit). Johnson appears to be the individual who started (or was at least involved with early on) the Discovery Institute's "Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture" (SRSC) I would point out that "Renewal" is not a commonly used term within the scientific community, but I do know it's a big term within Christianity (particularly the evangelical wing). It would seem that this has not gone un-noticed, because they've since dropped the "Renewal" bit on the website - although it still appears in some of the documents om the site, (the one I'm reading also get very wordy over their non-bias. If they weren't a Creationist think-tank pretending to be a genuinely scientific research centre, or individuals genuinely concerned over the data for evolution, then they're going a very funny way about refuting it :-D) Anyway, the author of the book you originally pointed (Behe) out is a member (and Fellow, I think) of this Institute. And the most telling thing is from this[^] document on their own site:
The very beginning of this strategy, the "thin edge of the wedge," was Phillip Johnson's critique of Darwinism begun in 1991 in Darwinism on Trial, and continued in Reason in the Balance and Defeatng Darwinism by Opening Minds. Michael Behe's highly successful Darwin's Black Box followed Johnson's work. We are building on this momentum, broadening the wedge with a positive scientific alternative to materialistic scientific theories, which has come to be called the theory of intelligent design (ID). Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.While not necessarily meaning that Behe himself has a Creationist agenda, he's certainly not complaining about his work being used by it. Anyway - I'd like to thank you for this debate. -
It's extremely difficult for me not to be hurt or angry at your comments. You continue to accuse me of ignorance and unfounded belief. Have you ever seriously considered what the opposition proposes? Have you ever attempted to understand the entire framework, since that is the only way to verify its claims (the same as any scientific theory)? I could make claims that you believe in unfounded, ingorant, misguided, deceptive men's ideas too. But, would that convince you of anything other than that I'm mean-spirited? Bible-believing Creationists are primarily creationist because of belief in the Bible. (Other people are creationists, too though.) The Bible also happens to teach that lying is sin. So, the people who truly believe both (the ones I admire most) wouldn't be intentionally deceptive. No matter what you might think. You also keep saying that there is a "total lack of evidence" for the creationist position. This is patently absurd. Evidence is evidence. Interpretation within a framework is what matters in this sort of discussion. Water is evidence, layers of rock are evidence. Life is evidence. Both sides have the same evidence. Take the evidence and prove that the framework can't adequately explain it -- that's how a debate like this should go. I would like to think that our discussion is fruitful, but another similar response will neccessitate that I stop responding to your posts for now. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.John Fisher wrote: It's extremely difficult for me not to be hurt or angry at your comments. Well, this is the soapbox. But I'll assume that you must be a reasonable intelligent person to be visiting this site. That's why it infurates me so much that otherwise intelligent people can honestly allow themselves to be so completely fooled. How can somebody be a programmer (a job that requires a mastery of logic) be so totally illogical? John Fisher wrote: So, the people who truly believe both (the ones I admire most) wouldn't be intentionally deceptive. No matter what you might think. Well, I'm sure you're say this isn't a creationist you admire, but here you go 300 Creationist Lies Index[^]. Maybe you really don't realise just how much blatant lying these people are doing to deceive you, but for god sake take off you blinders for a second. These people are neither christians or scientists, they are frauds and con-men who are playing on your deeply held believes for power and profit.
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I forget which one it was, but one of our founding fathers sort of predicted this sort of thing. (I really wish I could remember the quote.) Basically he said that the U.S. Constitution would only work as long as people treated God and His Word as authoritative, and acted responsibly. Now, we simply see an evidence of this. When absolutes are ignored, whoever talks the loudest, the most, or with the most voices can change the law because people no longer have a non-emotional reason to stand against it. Many people who oppose homosexual marriage are doing it based upon principles of morality taught in the Bible. This is a principle, and not an emotional feeling -- thus a very valid reason to oppose homosexual marriage. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.John Fisher wrote: This is a principle, and not an emotional feeling -- thus a very valid reason to oppose homosexual marriage. it may be a valid reason to oppose homosexual marriage. but that doesn't make it a valid reason for making laws. The US Is Not A Theocracy. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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Ian Darling wrote: So which society was that then? And was accepting homosexuality as an alternative the cause of their demise? I find that unlikely to say the least. Sodom from the Bible. The city was destroyed because of unrighteousness, sins which included Homosexuality. My code isn't buggy. Those are all fleatures.
Adam Wimsatt wrote: sins which included Homosexuality and idolatry, and promiscuity, and unkindness towards strangers and a whole bunch of other things. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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It's extremely difficult for me not to be hurt or angry at your comments. You continue to accuse me of ignorance and unfounded belief. Have you ever seriously considered what the opposition proposes? Have you ever attempted to understand the entire framework, since that is the only way to verify its claims (the same as any scientific theory)? I could make claims that you believe in unfounded, ingorant, misguided, deceptive men's ideas too. But, would that convince you of anything other than that I'm mean-spirited? Bible-believing Creationists are primarily creationist because of belief in the Bible. (Other people are creationists, too though.) The Bible also happens to teach that lying is sin. So, the people who truly believe both (the ones I admire most) wouldn't be intentionally deceptive. No matter what you might think. You also keep saying that there is a "total lack of evidence" for the creationist position. This is patently absurd. Evidence is evidence. Interpretation within a framework is what matters in this sort of discussion. Water is evidence, layers of rock are evidence. Life is evidence. Both sides have the same evidence. Take the evidence and prove that the framework can't adequately explain it -- that's how a debate like this should go. I would like to think that our discussion is fruitful, but another similar response will neccessitate that I stop responding to your posts for now. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.1 Corinthians 1:18-20 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld
Jason Henderson
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John Fisher wrote: It's extremely difficult for me not to be hurt or angry at your comments. Well, this is the soapbox. But I'll assume that you must be a reasonable intelligent person to be visiting this site. That's why it infurates me so much that otherwise intelligent people can honestly allow themselves to be so completely fooled. How can somebody be a programmer (a job that requires a mastery of logic) be so totally illogical? John Fisher wrote: So, the people who truly believe both (the ones I admire most) wouldn't be intentionally deceptive. No matter what you might think. Well, I'm sure you're say this isn't a creationist you admire, but here you go 300 Creationist Lies Index[^]. Maybe you really don't realise just how much blatant lying these people are doing to deceive you, but for god sake take off you blinders for a second. These people are neither christians or scientists, they are frauds and con-men who are playing on your deeply held believes for power and profit.
Hey, quit being a jerk. Nobody has difinitive prove that creationism is false and nobody can prove evolution either. So just cool your jets and think about what you just said and how much of a jerk you and others are being. He believes in God, so how does that hurt you? There are billions of people that have examined the evidence on both sides and have found the theory of evolution wanting, and I am one of them. Logic doesn't solve all problems.
"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld
Jason Henderson
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John Fisher wrote: This is a principle, and not an emotional feeling -- thus a very valid reason to oppose homosexual marriage. it may be a valid reason to oppose homosexual marriage. but that doesn't make it a valid reason for making laws. The US Is Not A Theocracy. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
Chris Losinger wrote: The US Is Not A Theocracy. Quite true. Chris Losinger wrote: it may be a valid reason to oppose homosexual marriage. but that doesn't make it a valid reason for making laws. Quite false. I and many other U.S. citizens believe that homosexual marriage is morally wrong. We are part of "the people" who make up these United States. By virtue of our citizenship (and in line with the observation you made that his law could be completely arbitrary) any reason is a valid reason to make a law. BTW, I did vote down your post from the 5 it was given. Normally I don't do that, but your comment was just plain bad logic. (At least it was inconsitent with the logic of your previous post.) John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek. -
John Fisher wrote: It's extremely difficult for me not to be hurt or angry at your comments. Well, this is the soapbox. But I'll assume that you must be a reasonable intelligent person to be visiting this site. That's why it infurates me so much that otherwise intelligent people can honestly allow themselves to be so completely fooled. How can somebody be a programmer (a job that requires a mastery of logic) be so totally illogical? John Fisher wrote: So, the people who truly believe both (the ones I admire most) wouldn't be intentionally deceptive. No matter what you might think. Well, I'm sure you're say this isn't a creationist you admire, but here you go 300 Creationist Lies Index[^]. Maybe you really don't realise just how much blatant lying these people are doing to deceive you, but for god sake take off you blinders for a second. These people are neither christians or scientists, they are frauds and con-men who are playing on your deeply held believes for power and profit.
Wjousts wrote: Well, this is the soapbox. I know, and while what I said was true, I was mostly trying to calm you down a bit. ;) Wjousts wrote: But I'll assume that you must be a reasonable intelligent person to be visiting this site. CodeProject and I both thank you for the compliment. (And I send it back your way, too. There are a lot of people who believe in evolution without really studying it. You have given me good links and it shows that you aren't an accidental believer.) Wjousts wrote: That's why it infurates me so much that otherwise intelligent people can honestly allow themselves to be so completely fooled. How can somebody be a programmer (a job that requires a mastery of logic) be so totally illogical? The answer at least partially lies in the nature of logic (and my previous mention of belief frameworks). Logic is nothing without assumptions. In the first lesson or two of my college logic class, that was made clear. In teaching logic, they would give us assumptions like "All water is purple" and "Fred likes everything purple". While it is quite likely that neither of those statements are true, we were quite logical in concluding that "Fred likes water". (Maybe I've not answered your question well enough?) Wjousts wrote: Well, I'm sure you're say this isn't a creationist you admire, but here you go 300 Creationist Lies Index[^]. It won't be a surprise that I don't put much stock in Kent Hovind, but the reasons I don't might be of interest to you. (I read several pages of the stuff you linked to, so I had a good understanding of what it was about. I know good answers to the supposed Bible contradictions that the pastor-turned-athiest listed. The fact that he was ever a pastor amazes me because of the simplicity in answering some of them.) Anyway, as far as Hovind goes... I watched his series of tapes (given to me by a well meaning Christian friend). They left a bad taste in my mouth. His arguments were sloppy and he came off as incredibly arrogant (which some people find entertaining). My wife can't stand visible arrogance, so she wouldn't watch them with me! There are several other indicators that made me consider his material as insignificant at best. Many of them revolved around things taught by the Bible (arrogance is sin, we are to be diligent in our study and work for God, etc.) In other words, you're right that I don't admire him. As
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My framework springs from the data, it doesn't attempt to fit the data to the theory. My framework makes testible predications and is falsifible, yours if not. Every part of the mechanism of my framework can be demonstrated, no part of yours can. My framework fits neatly within the sum total of human knowledge and is logically consitent, yours is not. You framework requires magic, my requires nothing but math and the laws of physics and chemistry. My framework is subject to peer review and stands up to critism, your is insulated and hidden away whenever somebody tries to challenge you on specific points. My framework can produce evidence to back up it's claims, yours cannot. If my framework is proven to be false, I'll change it, you never will.
Apparently you know more about my belief framework that I assumed you did. Would you please write it out, so I can verify that you are talking about my beliefs, rather than something else? Wjousts wrote: Every part of the mechanism of my framework can be demonstrated Assuming that your framework includes standard evolutionary arguments. There are very large parts of it that cannot be demonstrated. Speciation has occurred and mutations have erased or corrupted existing genetic information, but no mechanism has been observed that generates new genetic information or that one kind of being has turned into another kind. (Speciation is mostly one group of animals that was previously able to breed separating into groups that are later incapable of inter-breeding due to degeneration and loss of genetic information.) Wjousts wrote: My framework fits neatly within the sum total of human knowledge and is logically consitent Lots of evolutionists argue about the right way to explain various phenomena. Are you prepared to provide your answers for them? Wjousts wrote: You framework requires magic, My framework requires no magic, and as a matter of fact, people with similar frameworks are largely responsible for the development of science as we know it. Wjousts wrote: my requires nothing but math and the laws of physics and chemistry It also happens to require belief in the multitude of assumptions that evolutionists base their theories upon, since most of them are unprovable. (No time machines.) Wjousts wrote: My framework is subject to peer review and stands up to critism Interestingly enough, the theory of evolution was accepted into popular culture largely on the basis of hoaxes like Piltdown man. Once it was common belief, people no longer cared whether one of the arguments was a hoax, since they had already accepted the belief. Wjousts wrote: your is insulated and hidden away whenever somebody tries to challenge you on specific points If that were the case, I wouldn't be talking with you, would I? I'm prepared to take some time and point you to specific articles and to read the information you point me to. I can't take large amounts of time, but the answers aren't hidden. Wjousts wrote: If my framework is proven to be false, I'll change it, you never will.
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John Fisher wrote: It appears that you have ignored the part of my post which would answer the question you just raised, so I'll post it again. No you appear to have missed the point. You say the tree thing isn't meant to be taken literally, but yet you claim the whole creationist thing is and the whole gays are evil thing is. How can you claim parts of the bible are literal truth and other parts aren't. Is that arogant of you to the extreme to suppose to know which parts of a supposedly holy text are actually true and which aren't? The tree thing is clearly false, so you write it off as not meaning to be taken literally, the creationism thing is false (despite what you think - the facts speak for themselves) and the majority of biblical scholars have writen that off as being "just a story". So why should we give any credit to anything else in the bible? So much of it is clearly wrong, so why accept any of it all? If I had a science text book with this many errors I'd confine it to my trash can.
Just look at the context. The "tree thing" is incidental to the story. The author could have said, "the tree was 1,000,000 feet tall" and the meaning of the vision would have been completely unchanged. People use figures of speech all the time. Without them, language would be less useful. Restricting the Bible to a subset of language forms would be unrealistic. In contrast, the "creationist thing" is the whole point of the passages that refer to it. Those statements are obviously not figurative or the meaning would be lost. Same with the information that applies to the moral state of homosexuality. All of the Bible is true, but you need read it like you would read anything else. When I tell you that "I'm walking on air" you know exactly what I mean, without assuming that I am litterally walking somewhere about the ground. This is a part of language, good communication takes advantage of these things, and it is generally quite easy to tell the difference. In fact, elementary English students are taught how to discover things like similes and metaphors. BTW, whether you own them, there are many science text books with errors all over the place. One big one is that some still teach that "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny". That was disproven about 50 years ago. Sounds like someone (besides the creationists you dislike) has an agenda to me. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek. -
Rob Graham wrote: The geologic record (and I don't mean fossils, but just rocks and rock formations) makes it quite clear that the world has been around for millenai befor man arraived on the scene (by whatever mechanism - I don't need evolution to contradict the 7 day bullsit, just physics). The geologic record is simply a pile of rocks. There is stuff in them. None of those things have date labels. All of the methods that evolutionists use to date them are based upon unproven assumptions. This is not proof. Again, the problem is with interpretation of the evidence, not the evidence itself. (As an interesting aside, the origins of the geologic record are based solely on circular reasoning -- i.e. the fossils date the rocks and the rocks date the fossils.) Oh, and these piles of rocks are actually one of the stronger evidences for Creationism. The only good way to get layers of rock like that (and the fossils in them) is to bury things quickly (like in a flood or volcanic eruption). [edit] This sort of thing has been observed just a few years ago at Mt. St. Helens. I would tend to call that evidence... [/edit] Rob Graham wrote: There is no evidence that supports that timescale for creation of the universe to the emergence of humankind. There is plenty of evidence to support a 6,000 to 10,000 year timeframe for the earth. Take a look at www.answersingenesis.org or any of the other sites that provide it. Just because you believe otherwise doesn't mean that evidence doesn't exist. (And just to remind you, evidence doesn't come with built-in interpretations. They come as people try to dicipher what the evidence means.) Rob Graham wrote: The fundamental theory is unchanged since Darwin, a few refinements on the mechanisms at work, but no substantive changes. Then what about the people who changed the model from Darwin's suggestion to mutation? How about the evolutionists arguing among themselve about things like the "hopeful monster" theory. Why the arguments between solid-state and big bang theories? Why so many variations on the big-bang theory itself? These are not minor disputes, they affect the very basics of the evolutionary explanation. (The only thing truly in common between all the evolutionary theories is that the world and universe are really, really, really old.) John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as sJohn Fisher wrote: There is plenty of evidence to support a 6,000 to 10,000 year timeframe for the earth. :laugh::laugh::laugh: To quote Heinlein, "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." I find Creationism so ludicrous that it doesn't warrant the respect of a decent argument, but I find no harm done to me by others who choose to believe it. I wish them well, and hope that it brings them much happiness, as well as bolstering their faith in the Creator. My faith is strengthened by Evolution Theory, in that its beauty and logic are so subtle and complex, yet so simple - a work of art and genius that we have yet to fully appreciate. Only an intelligence far beyond our capability could have imagined it, let alone set it in motion and let it work its magic. Stick to your guns, man, no matter what others have to say, if it brings you happiness and draws you closer to your God.:-D Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true... -
John Fisher wrote: There is plenty of evidence to support a 6,000 to 10,000 year timeframe for the earth. :laugh::laugh::laugh: To quote Heinlein, "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." I find Creationism so ludicrous that it doesn't warrant the respect of a decent argument, but I find no harm done to me by others who choose to believe it. I wish them well, and hope that it brings them much happiness, as well as bolstering their faith in the Creator. My faith is strengthened by Evolution Theory, in that its beauty and logic are so subtle and complex, yet so simple - a work of art and genius that we have yet to fully appreciate. Only an intelligence far beyond our capability could have imagined it, let alone set it in motion and let it work its magic. Stick to your guns, man, no matter what others have to say, if it brings you happiness and draws you closer to your God.:-D Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true...Roger, I've been thinking this for a while, and now seems as good a time as any to say it...I think that our world views are very different but I always enjoy your contributions. You seem to be that rarest of all species --- someone who thinks for himself, a true original. You are impossible to pigeon-hole but have lots of interesting things to say. Keep it up.:rose: John Carson "I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." - Bertrand Russell
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John Fisher wrote: There is plenty of evidence to support a 6,000 to 10,000 year timeframe for the earth. :laugh::laugh::laugh: To quote Heinlein, "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." I find Creationism so ludicrous that it doesn't warrant the respect of a decent argument, but I find no harm done to me by others who choose to believe it. I wish them well, and hope that it brings them much happiness, as well as bolstering their faith in the Creator. My faith is strengthened by Evolution Theory, in that its beauty and logic are so subtle and complex, yet so simple - a work of art and genius that we have yet to fully appreciate. Only an intelligence far beyond our capability could have imagined it, let alone set it in motion and let it work its magic. Stick to your guns, man, no matter what others have to say, if it brings you happiness and draws you closer to your God.:-D Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true...*sigh* The ability to humorously defend ones position without providing any real argument is entertaining, but not really worth much else. At any rate. The evidence is available for anyone to see. You've got the Grand Canyon. Evolutionists still haven't satisfactorily explained its formation, while Noah's Flood results in a perfectly logical reason for it to be there (assuming you allow for the Flood). There are large fossil beds buried in many places around the world. The size of some of them is measured in miles. On both sides, people agree that quick burial is the only way for that to happen. Evolutionists resort to a multitude of imagined catastrophes, while Creationists see it as evidence of the historical Noah's Flood. People groups around the world have had stories of a great flood before any Bible-believers showed up to teach it to them. How odd -- maybe it really happened! Anyway, you pretty much said that you wouldn't read this, so I'll stop. John
"You said a whole sentence with no words in it, and I understood you!" -- my wife as she cries about slowly becoming a geek.