Homosexuality related question
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Try googling for the valid scientific research which challenges those theories. Such differences of opinion are common in any trully scientific field. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: Try googling for the valid scientific research which challenges those theories what theories? bonobos and orangutans engage in recreational non-procreative sex that includes homosexual and autosexual behavior. it's an observable fact - you stand in the forest with binoculars and watch them fucking up in the trees. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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Stan Shannon wrote: Try googling for the valid scientific research which challenges those theories what theories? bonobos and orangutans engage in recreational non-procreative sex that includes homosexual and autosexual behavior. it's an observable fact - you stand in the forest with binoculars and watch them fucking up in the trees. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
Citations please. [edit] Observations used to indicate that the sun went around the earth, but fortunantly, there were those who challanged those initial - politically charged - conclusions. [\edit] "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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Ian Darling wrote: Bonobo Chimpanzees use homosexuality as a form of "social cement", apparently. So they, like, hang out in little jungle bathhouses? Give fashion advice to the non-gay bonobos? Stuff like that? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: So they, like, hang out in little jungle bathhouses? Give fashion advice to the non-gay bonobos? Stuff like that? :laugh: I haven't read the paper itself, just some stuff that refers to it (including the cement thing)
Ian Darling "If we've learned anything from history, it's that those who feed trolls are condemned to repetitive conversations. Or something like that." - Eric Lippert
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Guys I am not against homosexuality and I certainly do not have a problem with single-sex marriages being given legal status. But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Assume homosexuality is a biological thing. But then it's very curious indeed that homosexuality (to my knowledge) is not found among similar mammals to man like apes and monkeys. Now assume it's a mental thing - this is now rather tricky. Because now the genes and hormones are out of it. A person becomes homosexual by discovery. But then it can be argued that he wouldn't have realized his homosexuality had he not already been aware of such a thing. Rather confusing indeed eh? The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine a human being can slip into. Now while we need not think of it as being basically wrong, it's probably very much possible to revert someone's homosexuality by counselling or some such psychiatric treatment. The advantage would be that the person would now be able to do things as the majority of people would be doing. And since there are more heterosexual people out there, he/she has a much bigger pool now from which to choose his/her partner. Obviously this would be a better option for him/her unless he/she really likes to be the odd man out. BTW in my school ( a jesuit catholic school ), three students were suspended in Class 7 for indulging in homosexual activities in the school auditorium during a games break. Their parents were informed, they were severely reprimanded and all 3 of them suffered public humiliation and ended up as the subject of various gay jokes till they passed out of school. So I sorta grew up thinking homosexuality is a mental disease condition. Now, while I personally am not even remotely interested in anything homosexual, and even feel yucky when I think of it; I am fully okay with other people around me - colleagues, friends, family members being gay. Just because I am right-handed, I can't expect everyone else to be right-handed too, can I? Nish
Nishant S wrote: But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Bonobo chimps engage in homosexual activity. They do it cause it feels good to have your genitals tickled I guess. And they aren't saddled with humanities mechanized guilt factories - ie religions. I think there is a difference between being gay and simply being willing to obtain pleasure from either gender. IMHO, in order to be gay, you would need to be able to fall in love with a person of your same gender. If you just want to have sex with as many men as possible then you are probably working through some psychological issues you haven't even dreamed of. In other words, the act doesn't make you gay. It is where your heart is. Just like dykes that hate men - they may have sex with women by default and blah blah blah but if they are doing that as a result of some trauma experienced earlier in life then they are just acting out. Hell - I'll call them gay if they say to, but a person doesn't start of straight and then turn gay. Being "gay" (if it is true that you are born gay) is a genetic birth defect. If you disagree - then consider what would happen if everyone were "born gay". Our species would disappear from the face of the earth in 80 years. So, obviously, being passed a "gay gene" is detrimental to the continuation of our species and could thus be considered a birth defect.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
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Citations please. [edit] Observations used to indicate that the sun went around the earth, but fortunantly, there were those who challanged those initial - politically charged - conclusions. [\edit] "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
http://www.zoosociety.org/Conservation/Bonobo/WhatIs.php[^]
Bonobos have developed a set of ritualized socio-sexual behaviors that are specific to their species. Sexual behaviors, displayed by individuals of all ages, have evolved to strengthen group cohesion. For example, mating is common between male and female adults even when the female is not fertile. There is also a higher frequency of homosexual behavior among bonobos of all ages (especially among adult females), and genital contact functions as social appeasement during times of group tension.
and...http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520205359/ref%3Dnosim/dannyyeesbook-20/002-2979371-7812039[^]
The bonobos are best known as the sexy chimpanzees. Their most striking idiosyncrasy is their readiness to use sex as a social lubricant. Any tension within a bonobo group is normally resolved by a quick orgy, in which they all have sex with one another, in all positions and combinations. Yet, as Frans de Waal explains in the elegant photo-essay Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, this is just one way in which they diverge markedly from the other chimpanzees. (NYT review of the linked book)
Stan Shannon wrote: Observations used to indicate that the sun went around the earth so, nothing is provable by observation...? we could be wrong about the earth going around the sun - who knows, maybe 100 years from now, some bright person will find the real truth. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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Nishant S wrote: But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Bonobo chimps engage in homosexual activity. They do it cause it feels good to have your genitals tickled I guess. And they aren't saddled with humanities mechanized guilt factories - ie religions. I think there is a difference between being gay and simply being willing to obtain pleasure from either gender. IMHO, in order to be gay, you would need to be able to fall in love with a person of your same gender. If you just want to have sex with as many men as possible then you are probably working through some psychological issues you haven't even dreamed of. In other words, the act doesn't make you gay. It is where your heart is. Just like dykes that hate men - they may have sex with women by default and blah blah blah but if they are doing that as a result of some trauma experienced earlier in life then they are just acting out. Hell - I'll call them gay if they say to, but a person doesn't start of straight and then turn gay. Being "gay" (if it is true that you are born gay) is a genetic birth defect. If you disagree - then consider what would happen if everyone were "born gay". Our species would disappear from the face of the earth in 80 years. So, obviously, being passed a "gay gene" is detrimental to the continuation of our species and could thus be considered a birth defect.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
Terry O`Nolley wrote: Our species would disappear from the face of the earth in 80 years. So, obviously, being passed a "gay gene" is detrimental to the continuation of our species and could thus be considered a birth defect. Not necessarily. Given that our species is the result of a billion years or so of sexual reproduction, any species that ended up exclusively homosexual would have selected itself out of existence already. That these tendencies still exist in a not-small fraction of our population means that: If homosexuality has a genetic component, it's most likely recessive or somehow the combination of different "trigger" genes (and some embryonic development stuff). Therefore it would only arise when two heterosexual people, both with the recessive "gay" gene (or the full set of trigger genes) had offspring and both passed on that gene. There is also the notion of "kin" selection which (very weakly) supports the idea that a homosexual individual could help propogate a part of it's own genes through support of any siblings children. In addition, the social pressure on homosexuals would (and has) caused them in some cases to have children with someone in a heterosexual relationship. So if there was a genetic component, it would still get passed on in this manner. This is largely conjecture, as it's based on the IF above
Ian Darling "If we've learned anything from history, it's that those who feed trolls are condemned to repetitive conversations. Or something like that." - Eric Lippert
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Guys I am not against homosexuality and I certainly do not have a problem with single-sex marriages being given legal status. But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Assume homosexuality is a biological thing. But then it's very curious indeed that homosexuality (to my knowledge) is not found among similar mammals to man like apes and monkeys. Now assume it's a mental thing - this is now rather tricky. Because now the genes and hormones are out of it. A person becomes homosexual by discovery. But then it can be argued that he wouldn't have realized his homosexuality had he not already been aware of such a thing. Rather confusing indeed eh? The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine a human being can slip into. Now while we need not think of it as being basically wrong, it's probably very much possible to revert someone's homosexuality by counselling or some such psychiatric treatment. The advantage would be that the person would now be able to do things as the majority of people would be doing. And since there are more heterosexual people out there, he/she has a much bigger pool now from which to choose his/her partner. Obviously this would be a better option for him/her unless he/she really likes to be the odd man out. BTW in my school ( a jesuit catholic school ), three students were suspended in Class 7 for indulging in homosexual activities in the school auditorium during a games break. Their parents were informed, they were severely reprimanded and all 3 of them suffered public humiliation and ended up as the subject of various gay jokes till they passed out of school. So I sorta grew up thinking homosexuality is a mental disease condition. Now, while I personally am not even remotely interested in anything homosexual, and even feel yucky when I think of it; I am fully okay with other people around me - colleagues, friends, family members being gay. Just because I am right-handed, I can't expect everyone else to be right-handed too, can I? Nish
The ancient Greek culture admired homosexuality. The Adonis was the perfection. Women were kept in order to perpetuate the species, but Ancient Greek men prefered their own company.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar Coming soon: The Second EuroCPian Event[^].
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The ancient Greek culture admired homosexuality. The Adonis was the perfection. Women were kept in order to perpetuate the species, but Ancient Greek men prefered their own company.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar Coming soon: The Second EuroCPian Event[^].
Which completely invalidates the notion that homosexuality is based on nature and not nuture - its expression varies from culture to culture. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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Nishant S wrote: But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Bonobo chimps engage in homosexual activity. They do it cause it feels good to have your genitals tickled I guess. And they aren't saddled with humanities mechanized guilt factories - ie religions. I think there is a difference between being gay and simply being willing to obtain pleasure from either gender. IMHO, in order to be gay, you would need to be able to fall in love with a person of your same gender. If you just want to have sex with as many men as possible then you are probably working through some psychological issues you haven't even dreamed of. In other words, the act doesn't make you gay. It is where your heart is. Just like dykes that hate men - they may have sex with women by default and blah blah blah but if they are doing that as a result of some trauma experienced earlier in life then they are just acting out. Hell - I'll call them gay if they say to, but a person doesn't start of straight and then turn gay. Being "gay" (if it is true that you are born gay) is a genetic birth defect. If you disagree - then consider what would happen if everyone were "born gay". Our species would disappear from the face of the earth in 80 years. So, obviously, being passed a "gay gene" is detrimental to the continuation of our species and could thus be considered a birth defect.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
I pretty much agree with this. Sex is just sex - doesn't matter who it's with really - love is something completely different. I know of a few people that have experimented sexually with people of the same gender (males and females) but it doesn't make them gay. I think more people would be willing to have bisexual experiences if it weren't for the bigotry that many homosexuals face. They are more scared of what people might think of them than the act itself! >In other words, the act doesn't make you gay. It is where your heart is. Yep. Pity many others don't see it like that really. If you were blindfolded and someone "gave you a nosh", unless they had a moustache - would you even know if it was a man or a woman? ;) Probably still feel good right? ;) ;)
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Terry O`Nolley wrote: Our species would disappear from the face of the earth in 80 years. So, obviously, being passed a "gay gene" is detrimental to the continuation of our species and could thus be considered a birth defect. Not necessarily. Given that our species is the result of a billion years or so of sexual reproduction, any species that ended up exclusively homosexual would have selected itself out of existence already. That these tendencies still exist in a not-small fraction of our population means that: If homosexuality has a genetic component, it's most likely recessive or somehow the combination of different "trigger" genes (and some embryonic development stuff). Therefore it would only arise when two heterosexual people, both with the recessive "gay" gene (or the full set of trigger genes) had offspring and both passed on that gene. There is also the notion of "kin" selection which (very weakly) supports the idea that a homosexual individual could help propogate a part of it's own genes through support of any siblings children. In addition, the social pressure on homosexuals would (and has) caused them in some cases to have children with someone in a heterosexual relationship. So if there was a genetic component, it would still get passed on in this manner. This is largely conjecture, as it's based on the IF above
Ian Darling "If we've learned anything from history, it's that those who feed trolls are condemned to repetitive conversations. Or something like that." - Eric Lippert
I tried to think of a word that didn't have the negative connotations of "birth defect". I just meant that, at the species level, being passed a "gay gene" was equal to being passed a gene that would cause you to die before you reached reproductive age. But you raised some valid points - gay people often do have children. And our species has evolved intellectually and emotionally to the point where it would be possible for an entire race of gay people to still carry on the species. Hell - I'd even go so far as to say that the quality of life would be, on average, better for everyone in the world. Lower population - no unwanted pregnancies. Socially liberal mind set. But then I think - NO. They are still humans and therefore as soon as the holes opened up at the top of the social strata, the new assholes, reactionaries, conservatives and greedy pricks would emerge from the gay race and ruin everything all over again. Humanity is evolving, but it is not heading in the direction I would have chosen.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
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Which completely invalidates the notion that homosexuality is based on nature and not nuture - its expression varies from culture to culture. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: Which completely invalidates the notion that homosexuality is based on nature and not nuture - its expression varies from culture to culture Actually, that can't logically be used as an argument against the "gay gene". Just because homosexual activity may be culturally endorsed doesn't preclude it from also being genetic. If this was true, then you are also saying that there is no genetic way that a woman can be born with blonde hair because in some societies, women bleach their hair blonde.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
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Guys I am not against homosexuality and I certainly do not have a problem with single-sex marriages being given legal status. But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Assume homosexuality is a biological thing. But then it's very curious indeed that homosexuality (to my knowledge) is not found among similar mammals to man like apes and monkeys. Now assume it's a mental thing - this is now rather tricky. Because now the genes and hormones are out of it. A person becomes homosexual by discovery. But then it can be argued that he wouldn't have realized his homosexuality had he not already been aware of such a thing. Rather confusing indeed eh? The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine a human being can slip into. Now while we need not think of it as being basically wrong, it's probably very much possible to revert someone's homosexuality by counselling or some such psychiatric treatment. The advantage would be that the person would now be able to do things as the majority of people would be doing. And since there are more heterosexual people out there, he/she has a much bigger pool now from which to choose his/her partner. Obviously this would be a better option for him/her unless he/she really likes to be the odd man out. BTW in my school ( a jesuit catholic school ), three students were suspended in Class 7 for indulging in homosexual activities in the school auditorium during a games break. Their parents were informed, they were severely reprimanded and all 3 of them suffered public humiliation and ended up as the subject of various gay jokes till they passed out of school. So I sorta grew up thinking homosexuality is a mental disease condition. Now, while I personally am not even remotely interested in anything homosexual, and even feel yucky when I think of it; I am fully okay with other people around me - colleagues, friends, family members being gay. Just because I am right-handed, I can't expect everyone else to be right-handed too, can I? Nish
Nish, you are taking homosexuality too seriosly. Some people find pleasure in it, is there need to go deeper (excuse the pun) than that? I have a friend who gets turned on by older women. I'm sure there is some sort of explanation for it, but who cares? Personally, in most cases I see homosexual activities nothing other than glorified masterbation. Thats all. :rose: peace to all humans. We are more similar than we think we are.
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Citations please. [edit] Observations used to indicate that the sun went around the earth, but fortunantly, there were those who challanged those initial - politically charged - conclusions. [\edit] "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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Ian Darling wrote: Bonobo Chimpanzees use homosexuality as a form of "social cement", apparently. So they, like, hang out in little jungle bathhouses? Give fashion advice to the non-gay bonobos? Stuff like that? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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I tried to think of a word that didn't have the negative connotations of "birth defect". I just meant that, at the species level, being passed a "gay gene" was equal to being passed a gene that would cause you to die before you reached reproductive age. But you raised some valid points - gay people often do have children. And our species has evolved intellectually and emotionally to the point where it would be possible for an entire race of gay people to still carry on the species. Hell - I'd even go so far as to say that the quality of life would be, on average, better for everyone in the world. Lower population - no unwanted pregnancies. Socially liberal mind set. But then I think - NO. They are still humans and therefore as soon as the holes opened up at the top of the social strata, the new assholes, reactionaries, conservatives and greedy pricks would emerge from the gay race and ruin everything all over again. Humanity is evolving, but it is not heading in the direction I would have chosen.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
Being gay doesn't exclude you from also being a greedy reactionary conservative arsehole. ;)
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Guys I am not against homosexuality and I certainly do not have a problem with single-sex marriages being given legal status. But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Assume homosexuality is a biological thing. But then it's very curious indeed that homosexuality (to my knowledge) is not found among similar mammals to man like apes and monkeys. Now assume it's a mental thing - this is now rather tricky. Because now the genes and hormones are out of it. A person becomes homosexual by discovery. But then it can be argued that he wouldn't have realized his homosexuality had he not already been aware of such a thing. Rather confusing indeed eh? The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine a human being can slip into. Now while we need not think of it as being basically wrong, it's probably very much possible to revert someone's homosexuality by counselling or some such psychiatric treatment. The advantage would be that the person would now be able to do things as the majority of people would be doing. And since there are more heterosexual people out there, he/she has a much bigger pool now from which to choose his/her partner. Obviously this would be a better option for him/her unless he/she really likes to be the odd man out. BTW in my school ( a jesuit catholic school ), three students were suspended in Class 7 for indulging in homosexual activities in the school auditorium during a games break. Their parents were informed, they were severely reprimanded and all 3 of them suffered public humiliation and ended up as the subject of various gay jokes till they passed out of school. So I sorta grew up thinking homosexuality is a mental disease condition. Now, while I personally am not even remotely interested in anything homosexual, and even feel yucky when I think of it; I am fully okay with other people around me - colleagues, friends, family members being gay. Just because I am right-handed, I can't expect everyone else to be right-handed too, can I? Nish
It's not found in the wild because the animals don't know that it's easy to become a down-trodden/persecuted minority simply by proclaiming some bizarre perception that they're somehow different from the rest of the species. ------- sig starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- sig ends
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http://www.zoosociety.org/Conservation/Bonobo/WhatIs.php[^]
Bonobos have developed a set of ritualized socio-sexual behaviors that are specific to their species. Sexual behaviors, displayed by individuals of all ages, have evolved to strengthen group cohesion. For example, mating is common between male and female adults even when the female is not fertile. There is also a higher frequency of homosexual behavior among bonobos of all ages (especially among adult females), and genital contact functions as social appeasement during times of group tension.
and...http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520205359/ref%3Dnosim/dannyyeesbook-20/002-2979371-7812039[^]
The bonobos are best known as the sexy chimpanzees. Their most striking idiosyncrasy is their readiness to use sex as a social lubricant. Any tension within a bonobo group is normally resolved by a quick orgy, in which they all have sex with one another, in all positions and combinations. Yet, as Frans de Waal explains in the elegant photo-essay Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, this is just one way in which they diverge markedly from the other chimpanzees. (NYT review of the linked book)
Stan Shannon wrote: Observations used to indicate that the sun went around the earth so, nothing is provable by observation...? we could be wrong about the earth going around the sun - who knows, maybe 100 years from now, some bright person will find the real truth. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
Chris Losinger wrote: and genital contact functions as social appeasement during times of group tension That's what we need - more social appeasement during times of group tension. Maybe the secretary down the hall would fall for that... Hmmm... ------- sig starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- sig ends
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I pretty much agree with this. Sex is just sex - doesn't matter who it's with really - love is something completely different. I know of a few people that have experimented sexually with people of the same gender (males and females) but it doesn't make them gay. I think more people would be willing to have bisexual experiences if it weren't for the bigotry that many homosexuals face. They are more scared of what people might think of them than the act itself! >In other words, the act doesn't make you gay. It is where your heart is. Yep. Pity many others don't see it like that really. If you were blindfolded and someone "gave you a nosh", unless they had a moustache - would you even know if it was a man or a woman? ;) Probably still feel good right? ;) ;)
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: unless they had a moustache - would you even know if it was a man or a woman? You're making a big assumption there... ;)
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Putting the laughter back into slaughter
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Chris Losinger wrote: and genital contact functions as social appeasement during times of group tension That's what we need - more social appeasement during times of group tension. Maybe the secretary down the hall would fall for that... Hmmm... ------- sig starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- sig ends
I can just see it now... "Hi Nancy, wow, you look really hot today, and it's pretty tense in here. Would you mind stroking the Willy for a bit? Thanks!" ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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Stan Shannon wrote: Which completely invalidates the notion that homosexuality is based on nature and not nuture - its expression varies from culture to culture Actually, that can't logically be used as an argument against the "gay gene". Just because homosexual activity may be culturally endorsed doesn't preclude it from also being genetic. If this was true, then you are also saying that there is no genetic way that a woman can be born with blonde hair because in some societies, women bleach their hair blonde.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
But it does indicate that "sexual preference", which we are currently taught is unchagable and intrinsic, is, in fact, subject to culturally defined norms. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."