Christian Reconstructionism...
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"Christian Reconstructionism - The Foundation of Modern Conservativism By revscat Sat May 22nd, 2004 at 03:47:58 PM EST "He presses the crown rights of the Lord Jesus Christ in every sphere, expecting eventual triumph." Christian Reconstructionism is a little heard of religious philosophy that preaches that every aspect of society must come under biblical law. In their view, secular governments are in opposition to the word of God, and therefore they seek to eliminate all legal barriers between church and state. Founded in 1973 by R.J. Rushdoony, it has had wide influence in the modern Republican party. The overriding goal of Reconstructionism is the absolute control of the reigns of government so that the world may be properly prepared for Jesus's return, and that achieving this goal will demonstrate the fulfillment of God's will...." http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/21/13392/6893[^] Keep voting for those Reps and Dems. Oh YEAH!!! :sigh: What's the deal with Christian extremists??? I don't get it.:confused: So I am thinking Canada or Australia for my next home.:) Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
Aaaahhhh!!!! don't worry, as wacky as America may seem, those idiots aren't going to make any head way. Eventually they will probably move and consentrate in some place and try to put up a fight with the federal government. We all know what happens once the feds move in, no babies are safe.:) I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
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"Christian Reconstructionism - The Foundation of Modern Conservativism By revscat Sat May 22nd, 2004 at 03:47:58 PM EST "He presses the crown rights of the Lord Jesus Christ in every sphere, expecting eventual triumph." Christian Reconstructionism is a little heard of religious philosophy that preaches that every aspect of society must come under biblical law. In their view, secular governments are in opposition to the word of God, and therefore they seek to eliminate all legal barriers between church and state. Founded in 1973 by R.J. Rushdoony, it has had wide influence in the modern Republican party. The overriding goal of Reconstructionism is the absolute control of the reigns of government so that the world may be properly prepared for Jesus's return, and that achieving this goal will demonstrate the fulfillment of God's will...." http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/21/13392/6893[^] Keep voting for those Reps and Dems. Oh YEAH!!! :sigh: What's the deal with Christian extremists??? I don't get it.:confused: So I am thinking Canada or Australia for my next home.:) Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
JoeSox wrote: What's the deal with Christian extremists??? I don't get it It has nothing to do with Christ, I assure you. If they were able to achieve this, then there'd be no point in Jesus returning, now would there ? JoeSox wrote: So I am thinking Canada or Australia for my next home. Australia rules. Like the USA without the guns or the psychopaths. And the overpopulation. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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JoeSox wrote: What's the deal with Christian extremists??? I don't get it It has nothing to do with Christ, I assure you. If they were able to achieve this, then there'd be no point in Jesus returning, now would there ? JoeSox wrote: So I am thinking Canada or Australia for my next home. Australia rules. Like the USA without the guns or the psychopaths. And the overpopulation. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: If they were able to achieve this, then there'd be no point in Jesus returning, now would there ? That statment is paradoxical. Isn't it? Christian Graus wrote: Australia rules. Like the USA without the guns or the psychopaths. And the overpopulation. Agreed. but I'd have to get used to the driving. Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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Christian Graus wrote: If they were able to achieve this, then there'd be no point in Jesus returning, now would there ? That statment is paradoxical. Isn't it? Christian Graus wrote: Australia rules. Like the USA without the guns or the psychopaths. And the overpopulation. Agreed. but I'd have to get used to the driving. Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
JoeSox wrote: That statment is paradoxical. Isn't it? In what way ? Assuming that you believe Jesus is coming back ( as I obviously do ), the point of His return is to fix what's wrong with this world, and put us on a better path. If we could do that without Him, then the point of His return -> oh, is that the paradox ? :-) JoeSox wrote: Agreed. but I'd have to get used to the driving. Yeah. Years ago, my grandparents lived in Vanuatu, and we visited. Driving home in a mini moke late at night, we found out she was on the 'wrong' side of the road when we hit a stretch limo. Man, that mini moke sliced the limo open like a can of tuna. It was very impressive. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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JoeSox wrote: That statment is paradoxical. Isn't it? In what way ? Assuming that you believe Jesus is coming back ( as I obviously do ), the point of His return is to fix what's wrong with this world, and put us on a better path. If we could do that without Him, then the point of His return -> oh, is that the paradox ? :-) JoeSox wrote: Agreed. but I'd have to get used to the driving. Yeah. Years ago, my grandparents lived in Vanuatu, and we visited. Driving home in a mini moke late at night, we found out she was on the 'wrong' side of the road when we hit a stretch limo. Man, that mini moke sliced the limo open like a can of tuna. It was very impressive. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: oh, is that the paradox ? "If they were able to achieve this, then there'd be no point in Jesus returning, now would there ? Keeping this in context of the article, So hypothetically, the USA government is "all prepared" for Jesus's return. The rest of the world can still be "what's wrong with this world." Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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Christian Graus wrote: oh, is that the paradox ? "If they were able to achieve this, then there'd be no point in Jesus returning, now would there ? Keeping this in context of the article, So hypothetically, the USA government is "all prepared" for Jesus's return. The rest of the world can still be "what's wrong with this world." Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
JoeSox wrote: So hypothetically, the USA government is "all prepared" for Jesus's return. The rest of the world can still be "what's wrong with this world." OK, I get it. I'd suggest the USA government is further beyond redemption than most, hypothetically speaking :-) Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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"Christian Reconstructionism - The Foundation of Modern Conservativism By revscat Sat May 22nd, 2004 at 03:47:58 PM EST "He presses the crown rights of the Lord Jesus Christ in every sphere, expecting eventual triumph." Christian Reconstructionism is a little heard of religious philosophy that preaches that every aspect of society must come under biblical law. In their view, secular governments are in opposition to the word of God, and therefore they seek to eliminate all legal barriers between church and state. Founded in 1973 by R.J. Rushdoony, it has had wide influence in the modern Republican party. The overriding goal of Reconstructionism is the absolute control of the reigns of government so that the world may be properly prepared for Jesus's return, and that achieving this goal will demonstrate the fulfillment of God's will...." http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/21/13392/6893[^] Keep voting for those Reps and Dems. Oh YEAH!!! :sigh: What's the deal with Christian extremists??? I don't get it.:confused: So I am thinking Canada or Australia for my next home.:) Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
(Time to be more serious) JoeSox wrote: biblical law This, as I understand it, refers to the Old Testament laws detailed in the Torah. So for the edification of people here, I'll put in some of the laws that will be need to be obeyed: Wearing bells to church[^] How to deal with your sister-in-law if your brother dies[^] (or put to death?[^]) Punishing children for the parents lack of religious observation[^] Rebellious children are to be put to death[^] (also here[^] and here[^]) How to deal with the owner of an animal that kills someone[^] Damn, no more Black Pudding, or Big Macs[^] No more cotton-polysester blends[
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(Time to be more serious) JoeSox wrote: biblical law This, as I understand it, refers to the Old Testament laws detailed in the Torah. So for the edification of people here, I'll put in some of the laws that will be need to be obeyed: Wearing bells to church[^] How to deal with your sister-in-law if your brother dies[^] (or put to death?[^]) Punishing children for the parents lack of religious observation[^] Rebellious children are to be put to death[^] (also here[^] and here[^]) How to deal with the owner of an animal that kills someone[^] Damn, no more Black Pudding, or Big Macs[^] No more cotton-polysester blends[
Ian Darling wrote: No bloody wonder the Christians made a big thing of the new covenant yes, and yet they fight to have the 10 commandments in schools ( the 10 commandments are part of the OT Law ) Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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Ian Darling wrote: No bloody wonder the Christians made a big thing of the new covenant yes, and yet they fight to have the 10 commandments in schools ( the 10 commandments are part of the OT Law ) Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: yes, and yet they fight to have the 10 commandments in schools ( the 10 commandments are part of the OT Law ) Now you mention it, that is curious. Why not just stick up some variation of the Golden Rule instead - it's not like that's unique to Jesus - just about every moral system acknowledges that one in some way.
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Christian Graus wrote: yes, and yet they fight to have the 10 commandments in schools ( the 10 commandments are part of the OT Law ) Now you mention it, that is curious. Why not just stick up some variation of the Golden Rule instead - it's not like that's unique to Jesus - just about every moral system acknowledges that one in some way.
Ian Darling wrote: Now you mention it, that is curious. It's really just a throwback to two things 1. people not knowing how the Bible works ( in terms of OT vs NT ) 2. people naturally being drawn to lists of rules. Ian Darling wrote: Why not just stick up some variation of the Golden Rule instead Jesus said that the law is contained in two things, love God with all your being, and love other people the way you want to be loved. That's definately something worth putting on the wall, but even then, words on a wall are pretty useless IMO. If you show those attitudes ( or just the second, if you don't believe in God ), then you're far more likely to pass them on than if you just write them somewhere and forget about them. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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(Time to be more serious) JoeSox wrote: biblical law This, as I understand it, refers to the Old Testament laws detailed in the Torah. So for the edification of people here, I'll put in some of the laws that will be need to be obeyed: Wearing bells to church[^] How to deal with your sister-in-law if your brother dies[^] (or put to death?[^]) Punishing children for the parents lack of religious observation[^] Rebellious children are to be put to death[^] (also here[^] and here[^]) How to deal with the owner of an animal that kills someone[^] Damn, no more Black Pudding, or Big Macs[^] No more cotton-polysester blends[
and let's not forget the rules on how to sacrifice sheep and smaller animals (L 3:6). ahem Cleek / Software
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(Time to be more serious) JoeSox wrote: biblical law This, as I understand it, refers to the Old Testament laws detailed in the Torah. So for the edification of people here, I'll put in some of the laws that will be need to be obeyed: Wearing bells to church[^] How to deal with your sister-in-law if your brother dies[^] (or put to death?[^]) Punishing children for the parents lack of religious observation[^] Rebellious children are to be put to death[^] (also here[^] and here[^]) How to deal with the owner of an animal that kills someone[^] Damn, no more Black Pudding, or Big Macs[^] No more cotton-polysester blends[
I'm not keen on than translation of the OT. I checked it against my KJV OT version and the meanings are quite different. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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(Time to be more serious) JoeSox wrote: biblical law This, as I understand it, refers to the Old Testament laws detailed in the Torah. So for the edification of people here, I'll put in some of the laws that will be need to be obeyed: Wearing bells to church[^] How to deal with your sister-in-law if your brother dies[^] (or put to death?[^]) Punishing children for the parents lack of religious observation[^] Rebellious children are to be put to death[^] (also here[^] and here[^]) How to deal with the owner of an animal that kills someone[^] Damn, no more Black Pudding, or Big Macs[^] No more cotton-polysester blends[
Let my try to explain some of this. Please note though, I am not a Christian, not a Jew. Ian Darling wrote: Wearing bells to church That was only for the High Priest when entering the Holy-of-Holies. Not for the common person. Ian Darling wrote: How to deal with your sister-in-law if your brother dies If you think about it, it's really not all that bad of an idea. It allow the persons lineage to be carried on. Ian Darling wrote: Punishing children for the parents lack of religious observation Your summary of this is incorrect. The idea was if a child were to curse his parents (not swear, but to curse them with witchcraft), they would be put to death. Think about this. If they were to curse their parents using witchcraft, they wouldn't be following God would they? Ian Darling wrote: How to deal with the owner of an animal that kills someone The bull must be killed. And if the owner has been told to put up his bull, but doesn't, he is put to death as well. Sounds fair to me. Ian Darling wrote: Damn, no more Black Pudding, or Big Macs Leviticus 3:17 This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood. Is eating blood such a good thing? As for fat, well, we commonly think of <<fat>> as gristle in cooked meat, but in that passage it means the uncooked, raw cartilage and other junk. Ian Darling wrote: No more cotton-polysester blends The meaning of that passage was simply tring to save people some work. What if people had to learn the hard way not to weave flax and wool? Ian Darling wrote: All those evangelists, preachers and pastors who's behaviour or attitude turned people away from God should be killed They would be teaching false stuff (i.e., lying). If you were a god, would you want people trying to turn your followers away? Ian Darling wrote: Man can't wear aprons, or cross dress - even for fun I didn't see anything about aprons in that passage. However, the idea for this passage is good. What would the world be like if all the guys dressed and looked like girls, and all the girls dressed and looked likes guys? Nasty thoughts run through my head. Ian Darling wrote: Would you want your daughter married to someone who rapes her?
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Let my try to explain some of this. Please note though, I am not a Christian, not a Jew. Ian Darling wrote: Wearing bells to church That was only for the High Priest when entering the Holy-of-Holies. Not for the common person. Ian Darling wrote: How to deal with your sister-in-law if your brother dies If you think about it, it's really not all that bad of an idea. It allow the persons lineage to be carried on. Ian Darling wrote: Punishing children for the parents lack of religious observation Your summary of this is incorrect. The idea was if a child were to curse his parents (not swear, but to curse them with witchcraft), they would be put to death. Think about this. If they were to curse their parents using witchcraft, they wouldn't be following God would they? Ian Darling wrote: How to deal with the owner of an animal that kills someone The bull must be killed. And if the owner has been told to put up his bull, but doesn't, he is put to death as well. Sounds fair to me. Ian Darling wrote: Damn, no more Black Pudding, or Big Macs Leviticus 3:17 This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood. Is eating blood such a good thing? As for fat, well, we commonly think of <<fat>> as gristle in cooked meat, but in that passage it means the uncooked, raw cartilage and other junk. Ian Darling wrote: No more cotton-polysester blends The meaning of that passage was simply tring to save people some work. What if people had to learn the hard way not to weave flax and wool? Ian Darling wrote: All those evangelists, preachers and pastors who's behaviour or attitude turned people away from God should be killed They would be teaching false stuff (i.e., lying). If you were a god, would you want people trying to turn your followers away? Ian Darling wrote: Man can't wear aprons, or cross dress - even for fun I didn't see anything about aprons in that passage. However, the idea for this passage is good. What would the world be like if all the guys dressed and looked like girls, and all the girls dressed and looked likes guys? Nasty thoughts run through my head. Ian Darling wrote: Would you want your daughter married to someone who rapes her?
Aaron Eldreth wrote: As for fat, well, we commonly think of <> as gristle in cooked meat you've obviously never had a good steak, or any butter, or cheese or anything deep fried or stir-fried. Aaron Eldreth wrote: Nasty thoughts run through my head your problem, not mine. see a doctor or a priest. Aaron Eldreth wrote: But, it would make a rapeist think twice before raping a girl. Wouldn't it? no. it would make men think that rape would be a good way to secure the hand of the prettiest girl on the block. -c Cleek / Software
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"Christian Reconstructionism - The Foundation of Modern Conservativism By revscat Sat May 22nd, 2004 at 03:47:58 PM EST "He presses the crown rights of the Lord Jesus Christ in every sphere, expecting eventual triumph." Christian Reconstructionism is a little heard of religious philosophy that preaches that every aspect of society must come under biblical law. In their view, secular governments are in opposition to the word of God, and therefore they seek to eliminate all legal barriers between church and state. Founded in 1973 by R.J. Rushdoony, it has had wide influence in the modern Republican party. The overriding goal of Reconstructionism is the absolute control of the reigns of government so that the world may be properly prepared for Jesus's return, and that achieving this goal will demonstrate the fulfillment of God's will...." http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/21/13392/6893[^] Keep voting for those Reps and Dems. Oh YEAH!!! :sigh: What's the deal with Christian extremists??? I don't get it.:confused: So I am thinking Canada or Australia for my next home.:) Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
Guess they didn't read in the New Testament where Jesus says: "Give unto Ceasar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" (or something to that affect). ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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Guess they didn't read in the New Testament where Jesus says: "Give unto Ceasar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" (or something to that affect). ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Jim Crafton wrote: "Give unto Ceasar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" (or something to that affect). :confused: There is no mention of Ceasar in the bible.<Oh, I see there is mention of Caesar in the footnotes however> Perhaps you where thinking of this... "1 1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. 2 Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, 4 for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. 6 This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. ...." 1 [1-7] Paul must come to grips with the problem raised by a message that declares people free from the law. How are they to relate to Roman authority? The problem was exacerbated by the fact that imperial protocol was interwoven with devotion to various deities. Paul builds on the traditional instruction exhibited in Wisdom 6:1-3, according to which kings and magistrates rule by consent of God. From this perspective, then, believers who render obedience to the governing authorities are obeying the one who is highest in command. At the same time, it is recognized that Caesar has the responsibility to make just ordinances and to commend uprightness; cf Wisdom 6:4-21. That Caesar is not entitled to obedience when such obedience would nullify God's prior claim to the believers' moral decision becomes clear in the light of the following verses. http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans13.htm[^] "Paul does not say here that all leaders are good or right. He says the KIND of authority is established by Go
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JoeSox wrote: So I am thinking Canada or Australia for my next home Come to the UK! We may have an established church, but that's probably going to change soon (when Prince Charles becomes King is my guess), plus it's largely irrelevant as it is anyway, and we have a good ratio of loonies to mostly sane people (and our loonies usually end up doing things like Monty Python) We also have the added advantage of fantastic Real Ales :-D The downside of living here is unpredictable weather, slow fast food, and sports such as cricket and darts on TV(hides in asbestos bunker ;P).
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"Christian Reconstructionism - The Foundation of Modern Conservativism By revscat Sat May 22nd, 2004 at 03:47:58 PM EST "He presses the crown rights of the Lord Jesus Christ in every sphere, expecting eventual triumph." Christian Reconstructionism is a little heard of religious philosophy that preaches that every aspect of society must come under biblical law. In their view, secular governments are in opposition to the word of God, and therefore they seek to eliminate all legal barriers between church and state. Founded in 1973 by R.J. Rushdoony, it has had wide influence in the modern Republican party. The overriding goal of Reconstructionism is the absolute control of the reigns of government so that the world may be properly prepared for Jesus's return, and that achieving this goal will demonstrate the fulfillment of God's will...." http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/21/13392/6893[^] Keep voting for those Reps and Dems. Oh YEAH!!! :sigh: What's the deal with Christian extremists??? I don't get it.:confused: So I am thinking Canada or Australia for my next home.:) Later, JoeSox ""Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein joeswammi.com ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
JoeSox wrote: The overriding goal of Reconstructionism is the absolute control of the reigns of government so that the world may be properly prepared for Jesus's return, and that achieving this goal will demonstrate the fulfillment of God's will...." I'm curious... in what way is this philosophy different from the extremist Islamic philosophy that is the driving force behind current terrorist activity? They're waiting for the return of the twelfth imam, IIRC, but that's not really a fundamental difference. At the core, both movements want to replace rationality with irrationality. I have trouble visualizing either as a Good ThingTM. BTW, it's "reins" as in horses, not "reigns" as in kings...;P Also BTW, I looked into emigrating to Australia - they don't want anyone as old and out of date as I am. I don't qualify...:( Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
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JoeSox wrote: The overriding goal of Reconstructionism is the absolute control of the reigns of government so that the world may be properly prepared for Jesus's return, and that achieving this goal will demonstrate the fulfillment of God's will...." I'm curious... in what way is this philosophy different from the extremist Islamic philosophy that is the driving force behind current terrorist activity? They're waiting for the return of the twelfth imam, IIRC, but that's not really a fundamental difference. At the core, both movements want to replace rationality with irrationality. I have trouble visualizing either as a Good ThingTM. BTW, it's "reins" as in horses, not "reigns" as in kings...;P Also BTW, I looked into emigrating to Australia - they don't want anyone as old and out of date as I am. I don't qualify...:( Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
Roger Wright wrote: Also BTW, I looked into emigrating to Australia - they don't want anyone as old and out of date as I am. I don't qualify... What a pity, otherwise I could pop over for a cold :beer: with you. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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JoeSox wrote: The overriding goal of Reconstructionism is the absolute control of the reigns of government so that the world may be properly prepared for Jesus's return, and that achieving this goal will demonstrate the fulfillment of God's will...." I'm curious... in what way is this philosophy different from the extremist Islamic philosophy that is the driving force behind current terrorist activity? They're waiting for the return of the twelfth imam, IIRC, but that's not really a fundamental difference. At the core, both movements want to replace rationality with irrationality. I have trouble visualizing either as a Good ThingTM. BTW, it's "reins" as in horses, not "reigns" as in kings...;P Also BTW, I looked into emigrating to Australia - they don't want anyone as old and out of date as I am. I don't qualify...:( Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.