90 years ago...
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Stan Shannon wrote: Just out of curiosity, about how much of humanity do you think will have to be sacrificed before the Marxist finally comprehend just how monsterously stupid they actually are? So… just start a war and kill them all because according to you the outcome of a compassionate humanity is certain failure? Or perhaps I missed your point entirely.
Hate is not a family value.
-pete
compassionate humanity is certain failure Compassionate humanity? Forcefully robbing people of their property and giving it to your voters? That's a first. Tomaz
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Because you didn't understand it I must repeat it. If a socialist says that free market is good then he or she is inconsistent (or has changed mind) rather then the free market becoming bad because of it. He or she still has no moral ground to talk about humanity as long as he beleives in ideology that took so many innocent. This said - it is not inconsistent at all. If the author of Harrison Bergeron is really a socialist then he is simply a hypocrite - but that does not in any way damage the ideas of individual liberty (consistent with my free market sample above). Tomaz
Tomaž Štih wrote: If a socialist says that free market is good then he or she is inconsistent who cares? quit moving the goalposts. you said:
No socialist has moral ground to talk about humanity.
with the clear implication that KaЯl is the socialist in question (since he's the one who said "A parcel of humanity, it's perhaps what you're lacking of" in response to Stan), and therefore that he has no moral ground for saying what he said. in other words, you told him to shut up. and yet... when a socialist suits your needs, you're more than happy to quote him at length. hypocrite. Software | Cleek
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Tomaž Štih wrote: If a socialist says that free market is good then he or she is inconsistent who cares? quit moving the goalposts. you said:
No socialist has moral ground to talk about humanity.
with the clear implication that KaЯl is the socialist in question (since he's the one who said "A parcel of humanity, it's perhaps what you're lacking of" in response to Stan), and therefore that he has no moral ground for saying what he said. in other words, you told him to shut up. and yet... when a socialist suits your needs, you're more than happy to quote him at length. hypocrite. Software | Cleek
Because you didn't understand it I must repeat it. If a socialist says that free market is good then he or she is inconsistent (or has changed mind) rather then the free market becoming bad because of it. He or she still has no moral ground to talk about humanity as long as he beleives in ideology that took so many innocent. This said - it is not inconsistent at all. If the author of Harrison Bergeron is really a socialist then he is simply a hypocrite - but that does not in any way damage the ideas of individual liberty (consistent with my free market sample above). Tomaz
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> Revisionism would be to pretend that only europeans were imperialist. So true. Just look at the first Cuban Revolution circa 1895 and the role of the US at this time. Jose Marti[^] (Cuban leader who died in 1895) denounced US imperialism in Latin America in his speeches. Callixte.[^]
Yes, it wasn't until 1959 when a great anti-imperialist fought back and changed everything. Since then things have been wonderful in Cuba, why else would you have visited? "Hey, let's go visit an island in the Caribbean led by a communist totalitarian dictator who's been oppressing his people for the past 45 years. Yippe! I hear the beaches are beautiful and the women cheap." X| Alvaro
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.
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Because you didn't understand it I must repeat it. If a socialist says that free market is good then he or she is inconsistent (or has changed mind) rather then the free market becoming bad because of it. He or she still has no moral ground to talk about humanity as long as he beleives in ideology that took so many innocent. This said - it is not inconsistent at all. If the author of Harrison Bergeron is really a socialist then he is simply a hypocrite - but that does not in any way damage the ideas of individual liberty (consistent with my free market sample above). Tomaz
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socialist
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socialist
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kerry voter
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Yes, it wasn't until 1959 when a great anti-imperialist fought back and changed everything. Since then things have been wonderful in Cuba, why else would you have visited? "Hey, let's go visit an island in the Caribbean led by a communist totalitarian dictator who's been oppressing his people for the past 45 years. Yippe! I hear the beaches are beautiful and the women cheap." X| Alvaro
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.
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It would be worth if it stopped socialism. But unfortunately it didn't. (according to the black book: 80 mio. dead by socialistm and you can add victims of national socialism to this). No socialist has moral ground to talk about humanity. Tomaz
Tomaž Štih wrote: It would be worth if it stopped socialism To sectarianism you now add abjectness. Tomaž Štih wrote: 80 mio. dead by socialistm Oh, Stalin and Mao were socialist? I thought they were Marxist. Ah, fuck, I forgot once again you're unable to make distinction amongst any political philosophy which isn't yours. Tomaž Štih wrote: No socialist has moral ground to talk about humanity No libertarian believe in the concept of Humanity.
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See above. He was the only one with enough charisma to unite french and german socialists. After his dead, both parties betrayed their ideals, and the french socialists entered in the "Union Sacrée"[^] (August 4) when the German socialists voted the war credits (also on August 4). Would both parties opposed the war would have been the story quiet different. WW1 was an industrial war and a war of mass : it would have been impossible without the participation of the working classes.
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I guess I don't find it very convincing that everyone would've acted differently if he were still alive. If he hadn't managed to build up a sufficient pro-peace movement to prevent them from joining the Union Sacree on Auguest 4th (merely five days after his death), I seriously doubt he could've worked enough miracles to change that in the following five days. I doubt that he would've been able to overcome the motivation to provide a unified defense against German invasion through the use of an international socialist movement. More likely, I would think, is that he would've motivated French workers to oppose the war, thus undermining France's defense. (For better or worse) maybe that would've saved lives and shortened the war by providing Germany with a swift victory. ----------------------------------------------------- Bush To Iraqi Militants: 'Please Stop Bringing It On' - The Onion "Moore's prominent presence in the news brings to light some serious questions, such as 'Can't he at least try to look presentable?'" - The Onion
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compassionate humanity is certain failure Compassionate humanity? Forcefully robbing people of their property and giving it to your voters? That's a first. Tomaz
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I guess I don't find it very convincing that everyone would've acted differently if he were still alive. If he hadn't managed to build up a sufficient pro-peace movement to prevent them from joining the Union Sacree on Auguest 4th (merely five days after his death), I seriously doubt he could've worked enough miracles to change that in the following five days. I doubt that he would've been able to overcome the motivation to provide a unified defense against German invasion through the use of an international socialist movement. More likely, I would think, is that he would've motivated French workers to oppose the war, thus undermining France's defense. (For better or worse) maybe that would've saved lives and shortened the war by providing Germany with a swift victory. ----------------------------------------------------- Bush To Iraqi Militants: 'Please Stop Bringing It On' - The Onion "Moore's prominent presence in the news brings to light some serious questions, such as 'Can't he at least try to look presentable?'" - The Onion
I agree it's hard to guess what future could be with a different past, and that it's more fiction than history. But what would have happen if on August 2nd workers of the Ruhr were on strike? Would have the Kaiser continue his plans? Brit wrote: I would think, is that he would've motivated French workers to oppose the war, thus undermining France's defense That's why he wanted an international answer, and didn't believe in an unilateral movement, which would only help the aggressor. He wasn't a strict pacifist, and believed in the right to defend against an aggressor. Once Germany had declared War to France, nationalism has swept any pacificism, so after August 2nd I don't believe anybody could have stop the catastrophe. Moreover, the french government was ready to arrest all the socialist and union leaders[^]. Brit wrote: and shortened the war by providing Germany with a swift victory Even if Germany had beaten France in 1914 (and it should have, regarding the disproportion of the forces), I don't think UK would have ever accepted a continental super-power, moreover occupying the mouth of the Scheldt. So I think it would have been a 1940-like situation with UK continuing the fight alone. But these are only conjectures.
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Is that because Castro's regime is a dictatorship that it was marvellous before his arrival? :confused: Can't both situations be bad as well? :~
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Can't both situations be bad as well? Yes, definitely. But it's pretty hard to beat 45 years of totalitarian dictatorship led by a single despot. I don't have personal experience with the Cuba before Castro and I've heard different things from the Cubans exiled in South Florida. Some, like my dad, only mention the good things about life before Castro. They describe a life very comparable to what it was in the US, given that they were so near each other. Others do talk of Batista's regime as being corrupt and abusive. They say that it needed to go. However, no one could have imagined that it would take such a downturn, especially after Castro himself promised a democratic future for Cuba. Regards, Alvaro
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.
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Can't both situations be bad as well? Yes, definitely. But it's pretty hard to beat 45 years of totalitarian dictatorship led by a single despot. I don't have personal experience with the Cuba before Castro and I've heard different things from the Cubans exiled in South Florida. Some, like my dad, only mention the good things about life before Castro. They describe a life very comparable to what it was in the US, given that they were so near each other. Others do talk of Batista's regime as being corrupt and abusive. They say that it needed to go. However, no one could have imagined that it would take such a downturn, especially after Castro himself promised a democratic future for Cuba. Regards, Alvaro
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.
Castro seemed to have a popular backing at the beginning, so I suppose Life wasn't so wonderful before him (note: I don't claim life is better now). Most of the documentaries I've seen on the pre-Castro period showed Cuba as (to simplify) a gigantic brothel mainly in the hands of the Us mafia, but I don't remember any of them showing batista's Cuba as a bloody dictatorship (not as a democracy either). So seen from the outside, and with a superficial knowlegde, Cuba seemed to have fallen from Charybdis to Scylla, avoiding a peril to suffer from another one. Anyway, thanks for all the explanation :)
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Tomaž Štih wrote: Forcefully robbing people of their property and giving it to your voters? Right because the core philosophy of Liberalism is to oppress the rich! :laugh::laugh: Next?
"No matter where you go, there your are." - Buckaroo Banzai
-pete
No, actually the core philosophy of socialism is to opress minority groups. The rich are just the first on the list. Once eliminated and the social problem still not solved then next group becomes the target. In Europe we sucessfully moved on to the producvie young people trying to make a living for themselves. They are now being squeezed by people, now already accustomed to socialist mentalisty by: high taxes, high health costs (though they don't use it), high contribution to the goverment pension funds (which are in most European social tyrannies empty thus they are not really saving any money for themselves but simply doing the social transfers) and most of all - the draconian real estate regulation. And (of course) demographics crisis in Europe is "definitely not" caused by this policies. No, no... Young professional are letting the socialism down like Lenin always said the "intelligentsia" would. But if they wont have children in our regulated markets and won't buy goverment blessed half million EUR pieces of concrete called houses we'll simply import more from abroad, tax at home and create goverment housing for them, cause they are "underprivileged". And once we had them in goverment housing and the housing markets destroyed theyll vote left - what else could they do... Tomaz
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No, actually the core philosophy of socialism is to opress minority groups. The rich are just the first on the list. Once eliminated and the social problem still not solved then next group becomes the target. In Europe we sucessfully moved on to the producvie young people trying to make a living for themselves. They are now being squeezed by people, now already accustomed to socialist mentalisty by: high taxes, high health costs (though they don't use it), high contribution to the goverment pension funds (which are in most European social tyrannies empty thus they are not really saving any money for themselves but simply doing the social transfers) and most of all - the draconian real estate regulation. And (of course) demographics crisis in Europe is "definitely not" caused by this policies. No, no... Young professional are letting the socialism down like Lenin always said the "intelligentsia" would. But if they wont have children in our regulated markets and won't buy goverment blessed half million EUR pieces of concrete called houses we'll simply import more from abroad, tax at home and create goverment housing for them, cause they are "underprivileged". And once we had them in goverment housing and the housing markets destroyed theyll vote left - what else could they do... Tomaz
Tomaž Štih wrote: No, actually the core philosophy of socialism is to opress minority groups. You mean like gays? So you are saying that in the U.S. the Republican party is espousing a socialistic agenda? Tomaž Štih wrote: The rich are just the first on the list. Once eliminated and the social problem still not solved then .... So you are saying in Europe that Socialism has successfully eliminated rich people? You guys don't have any left over there? So all your high end consumer products must be gone as well. No more Rolls Royce being sold?
"No matter where you go, there your are." - Buckaroo Banzai
-pete
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Tomaž Štih wrote: No, actually the core philosophy of socialism is to opress minority groups. You mean like gays? So you are saying that in the U.S. the Republican party is espousing a socialistic agenda? Tomaž Štih wrote: The rich are just the first on the list. Once eliminated and the social problem still not solved then .... So you are saying in Europe that Socialism has successfully eliminated rich people? You guys don't have any left over there? So all your high end consumer products must be gone as well. No more Rolls Royce being sold?
"No matter where you go, there your are." - Buckaroo Banzai
-pete
You mean like gays? I mean like every single group of people that has more money then you do until it's your turn. You have problem with understanding those who pay more taxes then you do as people? As minority group onto which you personally impose more taxes for your ideals then you yourself are ready to pay? So you are saying in Europe that Socialism has successfully eliminated rich people? Socialism in Europe is successfully run out of resources. In some social tyrannies it has taxed minority groups 60%, even 70%; in Sweden in 1996 fantastic 75% od GDP was goverment spending. It has not taken away luxuries from the rich - but it has squeezed them to the limit and it still does not work so now the socis need a new minority group. Young professionals are next. Earnears in group over 100k EUR in many European countries already pay over 50% tax & socials. And it is still not working... I suppose you're in none of the groups? That explains your total ignorance. You're doing this to these people and you think you're better because you'd let gays marry? That's amazing form of self denial - calling for stealing and plundering from one group and at the same time trying to buy absolution from another. I guess people who are better then you, who earn more money then you are your jews, huh? As long as they are not gays, that is. Tomaz
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You mean like gays? I mean like every single group of people that has more money then you do until it's your turn. You have problem with understanding those who pay more taxes then you do as people? As minority group onto which you personally impose more taxes for your ideals then you yourself are ready to pay? So you are saying in Europe that Socialism has successfully eliminated rich people? Socialism in Europe is successfully run out of resources. In some social tyrannies it has taxed minority groups 60%, even 70%; in Sweden in 1996 fantastic 75% od GDP was goverment spending. It has not taken away luxuries from the rich - but it has squeezed them to the limit and it still does not work so now the socis need a new minority group. Young professionals are next. Earnears in group over 100k EUR in many European countries already pay over 50% tax & socials. And it is still not working... I suppose you're in none of the groups? That explains your total ignorance. You're doing this to these people and you think you're better because you'd let gays marry? That's amazing form of self denial - calling for stealing and plundering from one group and at the same time trying to buy absolution from another. I guess people who are better then you, who earn more money then you are your jews, huh? As long as they are not gays, that is. Tomaz
Tomaž Štih wrote: I suppose you're in none of the groups? Well I am not in Europe so no, how could i be. If you are referring to the same income brackets in U.S., then yes I am. The most interesting part of the rest of your post is that you did not answer the questions that I asked. Although somewhere in there you seem to admit that Europe still has Rich people with all their frills to with them. So the answer to that question would be "No", as in Not True, as in your first post is illogical and contains misleading statements. Thanks for playing "I will make statements and then back them up". Your consolation gift is the home version of our game. Which means you can go play with yourself now. :)
Hate is not a family value.
-pete
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Tomaž Štih wrote: I suppose you're in none of the groups? Well I am not in Europe so no, how could i be. If you are referring to the same income brackets in U.S., then yes I am. The most interesting part of the rest of your post is that you did not answer the questions that I asked. Although somewhere in there you seem to admit that Europe still has Rich people with all their frills to with them. So the answer to that question would be "No", as in Not True, as in your first post is illogical and contains misleading statements. Thanks for playing "I will make statements and then back them up". Your consolation gift is the home version of our game. Which means you can go play with yourself now. :)
Hate is not a family value.
-pete
Here, let me answer your question once again, (and i do apologize to you in case you do not like to hear a rational and well formed explanation and instead want to draw the conversation to your childish and extreme level) : "Socialism in Europe has successfully run out of resources. In some social tyrannies it has taxed minority groups 60%, even 70%; in Sweden in 1996 fantastic 75% od GDP was goverment spending. It has not taken away luxuries from the rich - but it has squeezed them to the limit and it still does not work so now the socis need a new minority group. Young professionals are next. Earnears in group over 100k EUR in many European countries already pay over 50% tax & socials. And it is still not working..." If you don't understand this as an answer about socialists successfully eliminating the rich (as a resource) I suggest you try reading something about the Laffer curve and the power of the goverment to tax effectively before additional discussions. Now please answer my question. It seems you don't have any remorse for people who have to pay (progressive) taxes enforced by your political option though they don't agree and would like to pay same percentage as you do (hell, they don't even agree with the ideas that they need to finance). It seems you even take pride in your pillage and try to offer arguments such as "well they shill have their yachts, its allright to rape thir women, they can afford the therapy" in return? Aren't you at least just a little bit afraid that someone someday may treat you the same way you treat others? Tomaz