Should Hitler be a person?
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I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
Yes, for two reasons. 1. Freedom of speech. Even if the view it presents of Hitler is skewed, people should be free to work that out. 2. It's true. He WAS a human being, and no matter how evil his actions, that doesn't mean he never loved anyone, or never showed compassion, etc. It's dangerous to assume that being someone is sick, or evil, that they make that apparent to all who see or know them. I saw a doco which interviewed Stalin's daughter, and they asked what he was like. She said 'he was a father, he played with us, read to us, loved us.'. Clinging to an idea of baddies in black hats who are always nasty is both unrealistic, and does not prepare us to recognise evil in our midst. But there are enough threads about the US elections already, so I won't go any further. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
I think it is a good idea to treat Hitler frankly. It will help Germans to reconcile with their history. I have always wondered - what is the difference between Hitler and Kaiser Wilhelm? Wilhelm is nowhere near as villified as Hitler. Both started brutal wars in which millions died. Some say WWI was started by a web of complicated alliances, but that is only part of the story. Wilhelm engaged in an arms race with Britain for control of the seas, and attempted to create a oligarchy in Germany. Now he just portayed as a bumbling leader who got in over his head. But I can't believe that he was all that blameless.
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I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
"This is what makes the whole thing so dangerous, because there's an animal in all of us - that's the message of the movie," Right IMO. Animal within us all. Not the human within the animal. Allow us to write off one person and we can start writing off more and more people. But based on whose judgement? I'd rather tolerate one monster being human than open the door to humans being judged and punished as monsters. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
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pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? Good question, I'm not going to answer it though. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies Attention: It's finally arrived, The worlds first DSP.
ColinDavies wrote: Good question, I'm not going to answer it though. Ah well that just makes you a no good copy cat because I completely failed to answer the question first. :-D pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? Of course! He was after all a member of the Homo Sapien species. By denying anyone to portray him as human, is just silly. He was human, and he had a personality, like it or not. Being totally fucked up in the head does not put you in a species of your own. -- Arigato gozaimashita!
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I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
And another thing; History is written by the victors. Villians villified by the victors too. Heros created by the victors. Right is on the side of the victors etc. etc. For instance you can be sure Bush is being compared to Hitler by those fighting him in Iraq. I'm not saying he is, but there are those who do. As there are people who cheer every dead Iraqi, worshipping Bush in the process. There are people who worship Hitler and think he was on the right path. People not long ago right here in S.A. who wanted to follow in his footsteps. And they have kids. Wives. Lovers. Pets. They pay taxes and watch football. They make M$ jokes and install Linux or they defend MS and doom Linux. They plug printer cables into the wrong port or fix their mom's PC. I've sat and had drinks with chaps like that. They're damned sane in every other aspect of their lives. Some are incredibly loving to their family. Ask him what he thinks of non-whites though and he could be describing exterminating an ant nest that is invading his kitchen. And they think I am nuts for defending the right to life non-whites have. They say I am dooming the nation, responsible for the death of white people at the hands of non-whites. And part of my point is they are human, and individuals, and I would be wrong to deny them that. It's all a bit fuxored but there is no objectified reckoning. You pick a side or create your own and try to win mindshare. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
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I think it is a good idea to treat Hitler frankly. It will help Germans to reconcile with their history. I have always wondered - what is the difference between Hitler and Kaiser Wilhelm? Wilhelm is nowhere near as villified as Hitler. Both started brutal wars in which millions died. Some say WWI was started by a web of complicated alliances, but that is only part of the story. Wilhelm engaged in an arms race with Britain for control of the seas, and attempted to create a oligarchy in Germany. Now he just portayed as a bumbling leader who got in over his head. But I can't believe that he was all that blameless.
Jeff Bogan wrote: It will help Germans to reconcile with their history. There is a curious point to make here. Currently I'm in Switzerland which, as you know, took a neutral stance during the second world war. There is a large German (well Swiss German - more on that in a minute) population here that I frequently have contact with. I have also met with Germans from Germany. Don't confuse the two - Swiss Germans are not Germans and vice versa - even the language is substantially different. They make this abundantly clear if you ever converse with them. Anwyays, the point I wanted to make was that the Swiss are quite open about the War and will talk at length about it. Strangely enough (or maybe not) Germans are quite closed on the subject. They say very little and are visibly uninterested in talking at length about it. I don't think this implies they haven't reconciled with their history. On the contrary, I think they have and many are perhaps disappointed in their government at that time and would like to be known for the current stance in the world, rather than past misdoings. Of course I am not speaking for them - that just seems to be the prevailing opinion of those I talk to. John Theal Physicist at Large Got CAD? http://www.presenter3d.com[^]
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Jeff Bogan wrote: It will help Germans to reconcile with their history. There is a curious point to make here. Currently I'm in Switzerland which, as you know, took a neutral stance during the second world war. There is a large German (well Swiss German - more on that in a minute) population here that I frequently have contact with. I have also met with Germans from Germany. Don't confuse the two - Swiss Germans are not Germans and vice versa - even the language is substantially different. They make this abundantly clear if you ever converse with them. Anwyays, the point I wanted to make was that the Swiss are quite open about the War and will talk at length about it. Strangely enough (or maybe not) Germans are quite closed on the subject. They say very little and are visibly uninterested in talking at length about it. I don't think this implies they haven't reconciled with their history. On the contrary, I think they have and many are perhaps disappointed in their government at that time and would like to be known for the current stance in the world, rather than past misdoings. Of course I am not speaking for them - that just seems to be the prevailing opinion of those I talk to. John Theal Physicist at Large Got CAD? http://www.presenter3d.com[^]
I've had the a similar experience with a German girl I "dated". Like John Cleese says in Fawlty Towers; Don't mention the war! I tried a few times and all her answers were either thin lipped and terse as only a German can do or full on rants about the world labelling her, for being German, a killer. In retrospect I see her reactions are similar to mine when people ask me about apartheid in South Africa. I am white and was born in 1979 so had some part in it. People want to know how I could do what we did, or how I could have stood idly by. And it's hard to discuss it frankly and dispassionately*. Partly because I'm used to being judged before I open my mouth. Partly because I am ashamed. Partly because I simply was unaware of what the hell was going on and that's no good either. It's hard to reconcile something that people have already pigeonholed for you. * That is the hard bit. To talk about it dispassionately. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Yes, for two reasons. 1. Freedom of speech. Even if the view it presents of Hitler is skewed, people should be free to work that out. 2. It's true. He WAS a human being, and no matter how evil his actions, that doesn't mean he never loved anyone, or never showed compassion, etc. It's dangerous to assume that being someone is sick, or evil, that they make that apparent to all who see or know them. I saw a doco which interviewed Stalin's daughter, and they asked what he was like. She said 'he was a father, he played with us, read to us, loved us.'. Clinging to an idea of baddies in black hats who are always nasty is both unrealistic, and does not prepare us to recognise evil in our midst. But there are enough threads about the US elections already, so I won't go any further. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: Clinging to an idea of baddies in black hats who are always nasty is both unrealistic, and does not prepare us to recognise evil in our midst. Exactly right. John Carson "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote ... and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. - John F. Kennedy
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I've had the a similar experience with a German girl I "dated". Like John Cleese says in Fawlty Towers; Don't mention the war! I tried a few times and all her answers were either thin lipped and terse as only a German can do or full on rants about the world labelling her, for being German, a killer. In retrospect I see her reactions are similar to mine when people ask me about apartheid in South Africa. I am white and was born in 1979 so had some part in it. People want to know how I could do what we did, or how I could have stood idly by. And it's hard to discuss it frankly and dispassionately*. Partly because I'm used to being judged before I open my mouth. Partly because I am ashamed. Partly because I simply was unaware of what the hell was going on and that's no good either. It's hard to reconcile something that people have already pigeonholed for you. * That is the hard bit. To talk about it dispassionately. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
Precisely. I think alot of Germans do not want to be associated with such atrocities. Many of them were born well after the war and had nothing to do with it. Thus they do not want to be blamed for past transgressions with which they had nothing to do. I completely respect and understand that. Being Canadian, we do not exactly have a clean track record with how we treated the Native North Americans upon our early arrival. While I don't mind discussing it, I also feel that I would never have treated the aboriginal peoples with the disrespect that they have endured historically. Sometimes I find them somewhat oversensitive about it, particularly when I am just inquiring for general knowledge and not trying to cause trouble... ah well... I just think it's good to understand what occured at that point in history so such mistakes are not repeated. John Theal Physicist at Large Got CAD? http://www.presenter3d.com[^]
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I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? I agree with those that say yes. The one comment I have to add; failure to see him as a person makes it more likely that we will allow history to repeat it self. From what I see he was one of the most charismatic leaders of the last century. We need to remember that. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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Precisely. I think alot of Germans do not want to be associated with such atrocities. Many of them were born well after the war and had nothing to do with it. Thus they do not want to be blamed for past transgressions with which they had nothing to do. I completely respect and understand that. Being Canadian, we do not exactly have a clean track record with how we treated the Native North Americans upon our early arrival. While I don't mind discussing it, I also feel that I would never have treated the aboriginal peoples with the disrespect that they have endured historically. Sometimes I find them somewhat oversensitive about it, particularly when I am just inquiring for general knowledge and not trying to cause trouble... ah well... I just think it's good to understand what occured at that point in history so such mistakes are not repeated. John Theal Physicist at Large Got CAD? http://www.presenter3d.com[^]
There is one big problem though. The debt of the children. There is no doubt that I directly benefited from Apartheid. I received education that non-whites of my age were refused. I received health care* that they did not. My home situation was far better. I had a nice house, my parents had good jobs, we ate well and I got to play in nice jungle gyms. All the while black kids my age got none of that. Thanks to all that I have grown up better situated to earn a living and live in this world. In this year 2004, 10 years after apartheid officially ended, black guys of my age are still worse off than I am. Because they are black and for no other reason. So now I have to live with this. And Gemans have to live with the fact that many aspects, good and bad, of their life are as they are because of what Hitler did. A Jew may have their job right now had the Jews' grandparents or parents not being persecuted. Your ancestors persecuted the Native North Americans hundreds of years ago. Long before apartheid. Long before Hitler. From what little I know there are still Native American problems, claims and such being made for the return of homeland and monetary debt to be paid. So when is the debt paid? Is there a debt to pay? How many generations, if any at all, must pay? I personally have to just live with it and treat it as a "well, what if?" It's harsh but I am no good to South Africa if I grind to a halt in a haze of guilt and self hatred. Should I though go further and sacrifice my life to the righting of past wrongs? Subsume all personal desire and ambition for the betterment of the wronged? I buy nice things. I lead a nice life. I want to see the world and eat good things. A few miles away guys my age are barely surviving. They are forced into crime because my parents stood idly by as their peers persecuted these guys' parents. Do I have a right to these nice things in life when it comes off the back of all that? * I had meningitis when I was 1 years old, that was 1980. In that day and age, had I been black, I probably wouldn't be here as I wouldn't have got proper medical care which saved my life. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
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I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? I was pondering a similar thougth when i read an article about the movie. Will i watch the movie? i probably would. I have already seen programs on the history chanel about terrible leaders(stalin, hitler, czars of russ,saddam,the guys from cambodia,king john ill:) of NK). Hitler is certainly human,and many humans in the right conditions would easily rise/drop to his level. The problem is, there are many dickheads out there who would misunderstand such portrayals or misuse them to discredit the history. Today in some parts of America it's fashionable to fly the confederate flag, and people are ones again proud of their ancestors who shared those terrible beliefs and want monuments to them. Will there come a time when it will be ok to admire your nazi ancestors? Bottom line is, out of intellectual curiosity, i wouldn't mind seeing hitler or any other 'ivan the terrible',for all they are(monsters,humans,geniuses..). Don't however ask me to tell that to a concentration camp survivor. Looking for me in cyberspace? I am the electron with the red hat, occupying 3rd sit on the left of the data bus. by the way, perl stinks. "I believe god invented man, because he was disappointed in the monkey" Mark Twain
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pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? I agree with those that say yes. The one comment I have to add; failure to see him as a person makes it more likely that we will allow history to repeat it self. From what I see he was one of the most charismatic leaders of the last century. We need to remember that. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: From what I see he was one of the most charismatic leaders of the last century. Are you suggesting that clinton is hitler incarnate?:) Looking for me in cyberspace? I am the electron with the red hat, occupying 3rd sit on the left of the data bus. by the way, perl stinks. "I believe god invented man, because he was disappointed in the monkey" Mark Twain
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There is one big problem though. The debt of the children. There is no doubt that I directly benefited from Apartheid. I received education that non-whites of my age were refused. I received health care* that they did not. My home situation was far better. I had a nice house, my parents had good jobs, we ate well and I got to play in nice jungle gyms. All the while black kids my age got none of that. Thanks to all that I have grown up better situated to earn a living and live in this world. In this year 2004, 10 years after apartheid officially ended, black guys of my age are still worse off than I am. Because they are black and for no other reason. So now I have to live with this. And Gemans have to live with the fact that many aspects, good and bad, of their life are as they are because of what Hitler did. A Jew may have their job right now had the Jews' grandparents or parents not being persecuted. Your ancestors persecuted the Native North Americans hundreds of years ago. Long before apartheid. Long before Hitler. From what little I know there are still Native American problems, claims and such being made for the return of homeland and monetary debt to be paid. So when is the debt paid? Is there a debt to pay? How many generations, if any at all, must pay? I personally have to just live with it and treat it as a "well, what if?" It's harsh but I am no good to South Africa if I grind to a halt in a haze of guilt and self hatred. Should I though go further and sacrifice my life to the righting of past wrongs? Subsume all personal desire and ambition for the betterment of the wronged? I buy nice things. I lead a nice life. I want to see the world and eat good things. A few miles away guys my age are barely surviving. They are forced into crime because my parents stood idly by as their peers persecuted these guys' parents. Do I have a right to these nice things in life when it comes off the back of all that? * I had meningitis when I was 1 years old, that was 1980. In that day and age, had I been black, I probably wouldn't be here as I wouldn't have got proper medical care which saved my life. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
Hey Paul - You raise good points. Points that I do not have answers for. Indeed the aboriginals in Canada were treated unfairly - land was taken away and never returned and certainly money was lost. I do not think such things can ever be undone completely. The Canadian government is trying bit by bit to attempt to right things. Will the damage ever be undone? Probably not. I has been almost 60 years since the end of WWII and even now neo-nazi groups are in existence. I think what is important is to educate the young as to what circumstances brought these injustices into existence so that lessons can be learned and mistakes not repeated. If that can be considered as payoff of some of the debt, then maybe in some small way everyone is better off as a result. I really don't know. :confused: John Theal Physicist at Large Got CAD? http://www.presenter3d.com[^]
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There is one big problem though. The debt of the children. There is no doubt that I directly benefited from Apartheid. I received education that non-whites of my age were refused. I received health care* that they did not. My home situation was far better. I had a nice house, my parents had good jobs, we ate well and I got to play in nice jungle gyms. All the while black kids my age got none of that. Thanks to all that I have grown up better situated to earn a living and live in this world. In this year 2004, 10 years after apartheid officially ended, black guys of my age are still worse off than I am. Because they are black and for no other reason. So now I have to live with this. And Gemans have to live with the fact that many aspects, good and bad, of their life are as they are because of what Hitler did. A Jew may have their job right now had the Jews' grandparents or parents not being persecuted. Your ancestors persecuted the Native North Americans hundreds of years ago. Long before apartheid. Long before Hitler. From what little I know there are still Native American problems, claims and such being made for the return of homeland and monetary debt to be paid. So when is the debt paid? Is there a debt to pay? How many generations, if any at all, must pay? I personally have to just live with it and treat it as a "well, what if?" It's harsh but I am no good to South Africa if I grind to a halt in a haze of guilt and self hatred. Should I though go further and sacrifice my life to the righting of past wrongs? Subsume all personal desire and ambition for the betterment of the wronged? I buy nice things. I lead a nice life. I want to see the world and eat good things. A few miles away guys my age are barely surviving. They are forced into crime because my parents stood idly by as their peers persecuted these guys' parents. Do I have a right to these nice things in life when it comes off the back of all that? * I had meningitis when I was 1 years old, that was 1980. In that day and age, had I been black, I probably wouldn't be here as I wouldn't have got proper medical care which saved my life. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
Very good points Paul. My 5 I can say the same about most of the issues you state. I was born 8+ week premature with underdeveloped lungs and barely 4 lbs (which I did not maintain) in 1954 not to many made it. If I had been black or native I likely would not have. Also I agree with how many generations? As stated I benefited by my race, but I can also point out that many of my ancestors held the belief that man was equal independant of race, and died for their beliefs. So does that make up for me, even though I clearly benefited? There simply is no one answer. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? I was pondering a similar thougth when i read an article about the movie. Will i watch the movie? i probably would. I have already seen programs on the history chanel about terrible leaders(stalin, hitler, czars of russ,saddam,the guys from cambodia,king john ill:) of NK). Hitler is certainly human,and many humans in the right conditions would easily rise/drop to his level. The problem is, there are many dickheads out there who would misunderstand such portrayals or misuse them to discredit the history. Today in some parts of America it's fashionable to fly the confederate flag, and people are ones again proud of their ancestors who shared those terrible beliefs and want monuments to them. Will there come a time when it will be ok to admire your nazi ancestors? Bottom line is, out of intellectual curiosity, i wouldn't mind seeing hitler or any other 'ivan the terrible',for all they are(monsters,humans,geniuses..). Don't however ask me to tell that to a concentration camp survivor. Looking for me in cyberspace? I am the electron with the red hat, occupying 3rd sit on the left of the data bus. by the way, perl stinks. "I believe god invented man, because he was disappointed in the monkey" Mark Twain
Or wear Che Guevara t-shirts, carry hammer and sickle emblazoned handbags or have KKK tatoos. All fun and games, Che looks enigmatic and charming, it's cool to have him on your t-shirt. He was a freedom fighter man! uhuh. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: From what I see he was one of the most charismatic leaders of the last century. Are you suggesting that clinton is hitler incarnate?:) Looking for me in cyberspace? I am the electron with the red hat, occupying 3rd sit on the left of the data bus. by the way, perl stinks. "I believe god invented man, because he was disappointed in the monkey" Mark Twain
mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: Are you suggesting that clinton is hitler incarnate? NO I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: From what I see he was one of the most charismatic leaders of the last century. Are you suggesting that clinton is hitler incarnate?:) Looking for me in cyberspace? I am the electron with the red hat, occupying 3rd sit on the left of the data bus. by the way, perl stinks. "I believe god invented man, because he was disappointed in the monkey" Mark Twain
Actually, you here a lot of people saying bush isn't too smart, but he's real "charismatic". Hmm... I still haven't found what I'm lookin' for - U2
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Hey Paul - You raise good points. Points that I do not have answers for. Indeed the aboriginals in Canada were treated unfairly - land was taken away and never returned and certainly money was lost. I do not think such things can ever be undone completely. The Canadian government is trying bit by bit to attempt to right things. Will the damage ever be undone? Probably not. I has been almost 60 years since the end of WWII and even now neo-nazi groups are in existence. I think what is important is to educate the young as to what circumstances brought these injustices into existence so that lessons can be learned and mistakes not repeated. If that can be considered as payoff of some of the debt, then maybe in some small way everyone is better off as a result. I really don't know. :confused: John Theal Physicist at Large Got CAD? http://www.presenter3d.com[^]
John Theal wrote: land was taken away and never returned and certainly money was lost. I don't think anyone who didn't participate in any of those actions has anything to be guilty of. We live in a rather unique period in time, it seems people have being treating each other like crap for a long time. It just so happened that the acts that we're most concious of happened to converge with our modern time. If you're a decent humanbeing who isn't preoccupied with preying on others, you have nothing to be ashame of. Looking for me in cyberspace? I am the electron with the red hat, occupying 3rd sit on the left of the data bus. by the way, perl stinks. "I believe god invented man, because he was disappointed in the monkey" Mark Twain