Funny....
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Christian Graus wrote: In the paper on the weekend was a big article basically stating that Americans are ignorant and that's why they voted for Bush. Given this I suppose we should expect the drivel contained in the rest of your post. :rolleyes: I'll give no further comment because it falls on deaf ears and closed minds. :rose: "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Given this I supposed we should expect the drivel contained in the rest of your post Like the bit where I said I disagreed with the article ? Bush was an ignorant choice, from where I stand. But I thought the article was unfair all the same. It just left me thinking about how many people voted because they like Bush, or they voted the way they thought God wanted them to. In the late 80's, I went to a church that told us week in, week out that we'd go to hell if we didn't vote for the Christian Democrats. I think hell would be living in a country run by the Christian Democrats, and I'm a Christian. I no longer attend churches that tell me how to vote, but in the USA, religion and politics seem much more intertwined than they are here ( although the abortion debate is hotting up here, that could change a few things ). So I've seen it first hand, and I was curious. I admit that reading the post below mine meant I probably worded things a little more strongly than I first intended, but I'm still keen to know... Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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My first post of the week is along the lines of the one below - Americans explain their choice. In the paper on the weekend was a big article basically stating that Americans are ignorant and that's why they voted for Bush. I thought that unfair, but the point it made is that Bush won despite being a bad President who is getting the whole world in more and more trouble, because of his holding the 'God card'. So I'm curious - if you voted for Bush, is it because you actually believe that destruction of the environment, endless war on people who are no threat to you ( at the expense of chasing people who are ), and violation of your rights are a good thing, or did you ignore his track record and vote on the basis that although he does nothing to act like Jesus, he takes every opportunity to invoke His name ? The other point it made is that Bin Laden almost certainly acted to try and encourage the US public to vote for Bush, as now he has exactly what he wants, a war between two groups of religious fanatics. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
I voted for Bush precisely because of the very issues you posted. None of them are true, and any one who actually beleives any of that is a complete idiot. There are many perfectly valid, completely reasonable ciriticisms of Bush that couild have been made that would easily have led to his defeat, but these truths were lost behind the same sort of bizarre irrationality that you cite. Christian Graus wrote: destruction of the environment, The US is not "destroying" the environment. To the extent that "global warming" is a valid concern, it is far too late to do anything about it. If it is here, than it is here and some draconian, crippling restrictions on the US economy is not going to stop it. What is clearly obvious is that this is nothing more than a political technigue to economically attack the US, and yet more evidence that we have few friends in the world even before Bush decided to thumb his nose at the UN French over Iraq. Christian Graus wrote: endless war on people who are no threat to you I know of hardly anyone in the US who is comfortable over the Iraq issue. Everyone I know, including myself, believes it was a mistake. However, that is all it was, and as such Bush was very vulnerable in that regard. But again, the insanity of the attacks leveled against Bush were so incredibly beyond the pale that we were all left with a decision of not so much supporting Bush but rather the institution of the presidency itself. To allow a Predsidnet to be successfully brought down by such insane vitriole would truly have left our government crippled in the future. Christian Graus wrote: and violation of your rights are a good thing, Bush has done a far better job of prosecuting the war on terror while protecting the average Americans rights than any other president in US history faced with a similar crisis. His sensitivity to my rights is one of the reasons I was most happy to cast a vote for him. As to religion, I am not religious at all, and it played no part in my vote except that here in the US Chrisitanity has been under such an unrelenting assault for so long that, given a choice between joining one side or the other, Evagelicals or Radical secularists who dominate the left to a much greater extent, I find the former far less a threat than the latter. The notion that there is something wrong with Christians voting their conscious, and that having a politician offe
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I voted for Bush precisely because of the very issues you posted. None of them are true, and any one who actually beleives any of that is a complete idiot. There are many perfectly valid, completely reasonable ciriticisms of Bush that couild have been made that would easily have led to his defeat, but these truths were lost behind the same sort of bizarre irrationality that you cite. Christian Graus wrote: destruction of the environment, The US is not "destroying" the environment. To the extent that "global warming" is a valid concern, it is far too late to do anything about it. If it is here, than it is here and some draconian, crippling restrictions on the US economy is not going to stop it. What is clearly obvious is that this is nothing more than a political technigue to economically attack the US, and yet more evidence that we have few friends in the world even before Bush decided to thumb his nose at the UN French over Iraq. Christian Graus wrote: endless war on people who are no threat to you I know of hardly anyone in the US who is comfortable over the Iraq issue. Everyone I know, including myself, believes it was a mistake. However, that is all it was, and as such Bush was very vulnerable in that regard. But again, the insanity of the attacks leveled against Bush were so incredibly beyond the pale that we were all left with a decision of not so much supporting Bush but rather the institution of the presidency itself. To allow a Predsidnet to be successfully brought down by such insane vitriole would truly have left our government crippled in the future. Christian Graus wrote: and violation of your rights are a good thing, Bush has done a far better job of prosecuting the war on terror while protecting the average Americans rights than any other president in US history faced with a similar crisis. His sensitivity to my rights is one of the reasons I was most happy to cast a vote for him. As to religion, I am not religious at all, and it played no part in my vote except that here in the US Chrisitanity has been under such an unrelenting assault for so long that, given a choice between joining one side or the other, Evagelicals or Radical secularists who dominate the left to a much greater extent, I find the former far less a threat than the latter. The notion that there is something wrong with Christians voting their conscious, and that having a politician offe
Stan Shannon wrote: screw the world Exactly Stan Shannon wrote: Christians voting their conscious Their conscience ? There are a lot of basic problems with this, not least the fact that anyone who thinks they can create a country to lives by God's laws, by force, is both in violation of the basic principles of the Bible, and announcing that they don't believe what it says ( specifically, that Godly law will come with Jesus' return ). Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Stan Shannon wrote: screw the world Exactly Stan Shannon wrote: Christians voting their conscious Their conscience ? There are a lot of basic problems with this, not least the fact that anyone who thinks they can create a country to lives by God's laws, by force, is both in violation of the basic principles of the Bible, and announcing that they don't believe what it says ( specifically, that Godly law will come with Jesus' return ). Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: There are a lot of basic problems with this, not least the fact that anyone who thinks they can create a country to lives by God's laws, by force, is both in violation of the basic principles of the Bible, and announcing that they don't believe what it says ( specifically, that Godly law will come with Jesus' return ). What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean "by force"? The only moral agenda being forced on any one in this country is a secular one. The Christians are doing nothing more than trying to keep a seat at the table - the very table that they, of all groups in this country, are most responsible for creating. The queston is why are the Christians the only group in this country who are not supposed to participate in the process of democracy?
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Christian Graus wrote: There are a lot of basic problems with this, not least the fact that anyone who thinks they can create a country to lives by God's laws, by force, is both in violation of the basic principles of the Bible, and announcing that they don't believe what it says ( specifically, that Godly law will come with Jesus' return ). What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean "by force"? The only moral agenda being forced on any one in this country is a secular one. The Christians are doing nothing more than trying to keep a seat at the table - the very table that they, of all groups in this country, are most responsible for creating. The queston is why are the Christians the only group in this country who are not supposed to participate in the process of democracy?
Stan Shannon wrote: What do you mean "by force"? I dunno, how many abortion clinics have been burned down ? How many doctors have been killed by people claiming to 'protect life' ? Stan Shannon wrote: The only moral agenda being forced on any one in this country is a secular one. You must be kidding. Stan Shannon wrote: The queston is why are the Christians the only group in this country who are not supposed to participate in the process of democracy? I never said that. I said that their (our) participation should not include seeking to legislate our values, for a myriad of reasons. For example, should all drugs ( including alcohol and tobacco ) be illegal because I don't use them on religious grounds ? I've spent time on religious discussion boards, and there are plenty of people in the USA who seriously want any woman who has an abortion to be imprisoned for murder, and any woman who smokes while pregnant to be charged with child abuse. That's just one issue. These are the people who vote for Bush, and who think that anyone who doesn't will go to hell. This is no exaggeration. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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My first post of the week is along the lines of the one below - Americans explain their choice. In the paper on the weekend was a big article basically stating that Americans are ignorant and that's why they voted for Bush. I thought that unfair, but the point it made is that Bush won despite being a bad President who is getting the whole world in more and more trouble, because of his holding the 'God card'. So I'm curious - if you voted for Bush, is it because you actually believe that destruction of the environment, endless war on people who are no threat to you ( at the expense of chasing people who are ), and violation of your rights are a good thing, or did you ignore his track record and vote on the basis that although he does nothing to act like Jesus, he takes every opportunity to invoke His name ? The other point it made is that Bin Laden almost certainly acted to try and encourage the US public to vote for Bush, as now he has exactly what he wants, a war between two groups of religious fanatics. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: is it because you actually believe that destruction of the environment, endless war on people who are no threat to you ( at the expense of chasing people who are ), and violation of your rights are a good thing, Absolutely! Why else would we re-elect him, duh. Like we really wanted some environmentally-friendly neo-anarchist peacenick running this country. That and we ALWAYS do what people in other countries DON'T want us to because we're the USA. If you don't like it, I'm sure we'll welcome you into our beloved country and you could even get your very one vote. Otherwise, stfu. hmph, and you say people in the US are out of touch with reality... :suss: OP
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Christian Graus wrote: is it because you actually believe that destruction of the environment, endless war on people who are no threat to you ( at the expense of chasing people who are ), and violation of your rights are a good thing, Absolutely! Why else would we re-elect him, duh. Like we really wanted some environmentally-friendly neo-anarchist peacenick running this country. That and we ALWAYS do what people in other countries DON'T want us to because we're the USA. If you don't like it, I'm sure we'll welcome you into our beloved country and you could even get your very one vote. Otherwise, stfu. hmph, and you say people in the US are out of touch with reality... :suss: OP
Optimus Prime wrote: Why else would we re-elect him That's the bit the entire world is trying to work out. I was astounded that a mainstream paper would run a US bashing piece as they did on Saturday. I am not suggesting that the USA should act first and foremost with a desire to get in a group hug with the rest of the world, but I am surprised at how little the average voter in the worlds greatest superpower cares about the effect their government has on the world we live in, and also surprised at how much anti USA sentiment is growing around the world and especially amongst your traditional allies in recent years. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Stan Shannon wrote: What do you mean "by force"? I dunno, how many abortion clinics have been burned down ? How many doctors have been killed by people claiming to 'protect life' ? Stan Shannon wrote: The only moral agenda being forced on any one in this country is a secular one. You must be kidding. Stan Shannon wrote: The queston is why are the Christians the only group in this country who are not supposed to participate in the process of democracy? I never said that. I said that their (our) participation should not include seeking to legislate our values, for a myriad of reasons. For example, should all drugs ( including alcohol and tobacco ) be illegal because I don't use them on religious grounds ? I've spent time on religious discussion boards, and there are plenty of people in the USA who seriously want any woman who has an abortion to be imprisoned for murder, and any woman who smokes while pregnant to be charged with child abuse. That's just one issue. These are the people who vote for Bush, and who think that anyone who doesn't will go to hell. This is no exaggeration. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: I dunno, how many abortion clinics have been burned down ? How many doctors have been killed by people claiming to 'protect life' ? Probably about a million less than the number of babies that have been "terminated" in late term abortions. Christian Graus wrote: You must be kidding. I couldn't be more serious, and abortion is a perfect example of it. Christian Graus wrote: I never said that. I said that their (our) participation should not include seeking to legislate our values, for a myriad of reasons. For example, should all drugs ( including alcohol and tobacco ) be illegal because I don't use them on religious grounds ? I think that is a personal decision on your part. If some one else believes that abortion, for example, is an intolerable blight on society based on their understanding of Christianity they should, at the very least, be free to cast a vote reflecting that belief. The fact that secularists in our courts have robbed people of that right is probably an imporant reason why a tiny lunatic fringe has decided to take the law into its own hands. Christian Graus wrote: I've spent time on religious discussion boards, and there are plenty of people in the USA who seriously want any woman who has an abortion to be imprisoned for murder, and any woman who smokes while pregnant to be charged with child abuse. That's just one issue. These are the people who vote for Bush, and who think that anyone who doesn't will go to hell. This is no exaggeration. And I've lived for 51 years deep in the middle of the bible belt, my parents, my grand parents and everyone I have ever known has been members of one faith or another, I am steeped in the attitudes of my culture, I have gone to churches all across Bush country, in the South, in the West and in the Midwest, and I'm telling you that it is an exagerration of looney toon proportions. Those attitudes are not reflected in the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise.
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Optimus Prime wrote: Why else would we re-elect him That's the bit the entire world is trying to work out. I was astounded that a mainstream paper would run a US bashing piece as they did on Saturday. I am not suggesting that the USA should act first and foremost with a desire to get in a group hug with the rest of the world, but I am surprised at how little the average voter in the worlds greatest superpower cares about the effect their government has on the world we live in, and also surprised at how much anti USA sentiment is growing around the world and especially amongst your traditional allies in recent years. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: but I am surprised at how little the average voter in the worlds greatest superpower cares about the effect their government has on the world we live in, and also surprised at how much anti USA sentiment is growing around the world and especially amongst your traditional allies in recent years. Honestly, we have our own problems to worry about. I voted to keep my job and to keep my country safe. I voted because W and L love each other and that means a lot to me. I voted because Kerry offers his cheek when Heinz kisses him. I voted because Heinz and Kerry have a prenuptial(sp?) agreement. I voted because I really didn't trust Kerry. I don't care if the rest of the world doesn't like us very much, sometimes making the right decision makes you unpopular. So what. ~Nitron.
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Christian Graus wrote: but I am surprised at how little the average voter in the worlds greatest superpower cares about the effect their government has on the world we live in, and also surprised at how much anti USA sentiment is growing around the world and especially amongst your traditional allies in recent years. Honestly, we have our own problems to worry about. I voted to keep my job and to keep my country safe. I voted because W and L love each other and that means a lot to me. I voted because Kerry offers his cheek when Heinz kisses him. I voted because Heinz and Kerry have a prenuptial(sp?) agreement. I voted because I really didn't trust Kerry. I don't care if the rest of the world doesn't like us very much, sometimes making the right decision makes you unpopular. So what. ~Nitron.
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startNitron wrote: sometimes making the right decision makes you unpopular. So what. Indeed...
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Christian Graus wrote: I dunno, how many abortion clinics have been burned down ? How many doctors have been killed by people claiming to 'protect life' ? Probably about a million less than the number of babies that have been "terminated" in late term abortions. Christian Graus wrote: You must be kidding. I couldn't be more serious, and abortion is a perfect example of it. Christian Graus wrote: I never said that. I said that their (our) participation should not include seeking to legislate our values, for a myriad of reasons. For example, should all drugs ( including alcohol and tobacco ) be illegal because I don't use them on religious grounds ? I think that is a personal decision on your part. If some one else believes that abortion, for example, is an intolerable blight on society based on their understanding of Christianity they should, at the very least, be free to cast a vote reflecting that belief. The fact that secularists in our courts have robbed people of that right is probably an imporant reason why a tiny lunatic fringe has decided to take the law into its own hands. Christian Graus wrote: I've spent time on religious discussion boards, and there are plenty of people in the USA who seriously want any woman who has an abortion to be imprisoned for murder, and any woman who smokes while pregnant to be charged with child abuse. That's just one issue. These are the people who vote for Bush, and who think that anyone who doesn't will go to hell. This is no exaggeration. And I've lived for 51 years deep in the middle of the bible belt, my parents, my grand parents and everyone I have ever known has been members of one faith or another, I am steeped in the attitudes of my culture, I have gone to churches all across Bush country, in the South, in the West and in the Midwest, and I'm telling you that it is an exagerration of looney toon proportions. Those attitudes are not reflected in the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise.
Stan Shannon wrote: Probably about a million less than the number of babies that have been "terminated" in late term abortions. Probably. What amazes me is that no-one in the USA that I've seen has a remotely sensible attitude to this. On the one hand, there are folks who reckon a woman has total right to kill a baby, virtually until it's born, on the other is the idea that any abortion should be illegal. If we're talking Christianity, surely the example of Jesus is not to legislate, but to make people aware and able to make the right choice because they understand what is right ? Stan Shannon wrote: I couldn't be more serious, and abortion is a perfect example of it. In what way ? Stan Shannon wrote: and I'm telling you that it is an exagerration of looney toon proportions. Those attitudes are not reflected in the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise. It's possible that only the lunatic fringe take the time to post to internet discussion boards, i.e. that my sample is skewed. But I have no idea how many people conform to that standard, and my media is certainly assuring me that they won Bush the election. If that's true or not, I don't know. That's why I asked, because I choose not to believe the media. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Christian Graus wrote: but I am surprised at how little the average voter in the worlds greatest superpower cares about the effect their government has on the world we live in, and also surprised at how much anti USA sentiment is growing around the world and especially amongst your traditional allies in recent years. Honestly, we have our own problems to worry about. I voted to keep my job and to keep my country safe. I voted because W and L love each other and that means a lot to me. I voted because Kerry offers his cheek when Heinz kisses him. I voted because Heinz and Kerry have a prenuptial(sp?) agreement. I voted because I really didn't trust Kerry. I don't care if the rest of the world doesn't like us very much, sometimes making the right decision makes you unpopular. So what. ~Nitron.
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startNitron wrote: I voted to keep my job and to keep my country safe. I voted because W and L love each other and that means a lot to me. I voted because Kerry offers his cheek when Heinz kisses him. I voted because Heinz and Kerry have a prenuptial(sp?) agreement. Those reasons seem incomprehensible to me, but at the same time they do seem comprehensible. Am I making any sense..? :confused: -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. Are you bright too?[^]
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Christian Graus wrote: but I am surprised at how little the average voter in the worlds greatest superpower cares about the effect their government has on the world we live in, and also surprised at how much anti USA sentiment is growing around the world and especially amongst your traditional allies in recent years. Honestly, we have our own problems to worry about. I voted to keep my job and to keep my country safe. I voted because W and L love each other and that means a lot to me. I voted because Kerry offers his cheek when Heinz kisses him. I voted because Heinz and Kerry have a prenuptial(sp?) agreement. I voted because I really didn't trust Kerry. I don't care if the rest of the world doesn't like us very much, sometimes making the right decision makes you unpopular. So what. ~Nitron.
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startNitron wrote: I don't care if the rest of the world doesn't like us very much, sometimes making the right decision makes you unpopular. So what. Just because the US is unpopular, doesn't mean it made the right decision. Actually, when the US makes the right decision, it tends to increase in popularity. i.e., the Marshall plan. When the US makes the wrong decision, it tends to become unpopular, i.e. Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, etc. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Nitron wrote: I voted to keep my job and to keep my country safe. I voted because W and L love each other and that means a lot to me. I voted because Kerry offers his cheek when Heinz kisses him. I voted because Heinz and Kerry have a prenuptial(sp?) agreement. Those reasons seem incomprehensible to me, but at the same time they do seem comprehensible. Am I making any sense..? :confused: -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. Are you bright too?[^]
I think he's suggesting that despite his country having a profound affect on my quality of life, I have no right to ask why they voted in an illiterate moron. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Nitron wrote: sometimes making the right decision makes you unpopular. So what. Indeed...
But as I said, being unpopular does not prove a right decision was made. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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My first post of the week is along the lines of the one below - Americans explain their choice. In the paper on the weekend was a big article basically stating that Americans are ignorant and that's why they voted for Bush. I thought that unfair, but the point it made is that Bush won despite being a bad President who is getting the whole world in more and more trouble, because of his holding the 'God card'. So I'm curious - if you voted for Bush, is it because you actually believe that destruction of the environment, endless war on people who are no threat to you ( at the expense of chasing people who are ), and violation of your rights are a good thing, or did you ignore his track record and vote on the basis that although he does nothing to act like Jesus, he takes every opportunity to invoke His name ? The other point it made is that Bin Laden almost certainly acted to try and encourage the US public to vote for Bush, as now he has exactly what he wants, a war between two groups of religious fanatics. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian what left Europeans do not understand is that their premises are result of propaganda and lack of debate about these issues. You think like this: 1. Premise: Bush is destroying the environment, 2. Premise: war against the Iraq is an agression, 3. Premise: Bush is religious fanatic. --- therefore --- whoever votes for bush is an idiot. But by drawing your conclusiong you already went one step too far. Influenced by Euro propaganda you assumed 1., 2. and 3. to be absolute truths. But Americans had two sided reporting. And in the competition of policies the left in America never really proved 1., 2. and 3. to be some sort of "truths". This only happened in Europe because there was no competition - twas not allowed - the mainstream media took these decisions by itself. So how does someone from other side accepts your thinking? 1. Premise: Bush is destroying the environment, 2. Premise: war against the Iraq is an agression, 3. Premise: Bush is religious fanatic. --- therefore --- you must be a categorical idiot who thinks he can build constructs on things he has in no way proved or made the case for. And when you start thinking that US voters are some sort of religious idiots, extreme gun waving rightists instead of simply accepting that you're building your conclusions on premises into which only you belive but have not made a case for. Thus the other side thinks like this: here's the guy who does not want to talk about his premises. Instead he'd like to proclaim the other side extremist idiots. Let's not lose any time on this guy, he's an idiot. Unfortunately to some people this is a sign of being right. The other side is not responding thus it has nothing to respond. In reality there are basic misunderstandings between Europeans and Americans related to the fact that Europeans were exposed to single sided propaganda and simply accepted some leftist theories as truths which makes any dialog impossible (because they are assertive and ignorant). Tomaz
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Christian what left Europeans do not understand is that their premises are result of propaganda and lack of debate about these issues. You think like this: 1. Premise: Bush is destroying the environment, 2. Premise: war against the Iraq is an agression, 3. Premise: Bush is religious fanatic. --- therefore --- whoever votes for bush is an idiot. But by drawing your conclusiong you already went one step too far. Influenced by Euro propaganda you assumed 1., 2. and 3. to be absolute truths. But Americans had two sided reporting. And in the competition of policies the left in America never really proved 1., 2. and 3. to be some sort of "truths". This only happened in Europe because there was no competition - twas not allowed - the mainstream media took these decisions by itself. So how does someone from other side accepts your thinking? 1. Premise: Bush is destroying the environment, 2. Premise: war against the Iraq is an agression, 3. Premise: Bush is religious fanatic. --- therefore --- you must be a categorical idiot who thinks he can build constructs on things he has in no way proved or made the case for. And when you start thinking that US voters are some sort of religious idiots, extreme gun waving rightists instead of simply accepting that you're building your conclusions on premises into which only you belive but have not made a case for. Thus the other side thinks like this: here's the guy who does not want to talk about his premises. Instead he'd like to proclaim the other side extremist idiots. Let's not lose any time on this guy, he's an idiot. Unfortunately to some people this is a sign of being right. The other side is not responding thus it has nothing to respond. In reality there are basic misunderstandings between Europeans and Americans related to the fact that Europeans were exposed to single sided propaganda and simply accepted some leftist theories as truths which makes any dialog impossible (because they are assertive and ignorant). Tomaz
Tomaž Štih wrote: Influenced by Euro propaganda How would that be the case ? Are you claiming that the ghosts of my dead grandparents are speaking to me in the night ? That's about as viable a source of access to European media as I've got. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Tomaž Štih wrote: Influenced by Euro propaganda How would that be the case ? Are you claiming that the ghosts of my dead grandparents are speaking to me in the night ? That's about as viable a source of access to European media as I've got. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Don't know about Australia (my experience is limited to what I see daily and I know - German, French, Austrian TV), but you definitely fit the pattern of a man so deeply convinced of his premises that any further discussion with you is a loss of time because you're more interested in making accusations based on your premises then to discuss whether they are right or not. I'd say that leftist all over the world are united in their views and that this is nothing new - it has been around ever since the socialist internationale. From praising Hitler after he signed non agression pact with the Soviets via bashing Maggie and Reagan in the 80ties to anti American propaganda after 9/11. Tomaz
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Given this I supposed we should expect the drivel contained in the rest of your post Like the bit where I said I disagreed with the article ? Bush was an ignorant choice, from where I stand. But I thought the article was unfair all the same. It just left me thinking about how many people voted because they like Bush, or they voted the way they thought God wanted them to. In the late 80's, I went to a church that told us week in, week out that we'd go to hell if we didn't vote for the Christian Democrats. I think hell would be living in a country run by the Christian Democrats, and I'm a Christian. I no longer attend churches that tell me how to vote, but in the USA, religion and politics seem much more intertwined than they are here ( although the abortion debate is hotting up here, that could change a few things ). So I've seen it first hand, and I was curious. I admit that reading the post below mine meant I probably worded things a little more strongly than I first intended, but I'm still keen to know... Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: but I'm still keen to know... I doubt that. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for Kerry before I voted against him." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
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Stan Shannon wrote: Probably about a million less than the number of babies that have been "terminated" in late term abortions. Probably. What amazes me is that no-one in the USA that I've seen has a remotely sensible attitude to this. On the one hand, there are folks who reckon a woman has total right to kill a baby, virtually until it's born, on the other is the idea that any abortion should be illegal. If we're talking Christianity, surely the example of Jesus is not to legislate, but to make people aware and able to make the right choice because they understand what is right ? Stan Shannon wrote: I couldn't be more serious, and abortion is a perfect example of it. In what way ? Stan Shannon wrote: and I'm telling you that it is an exagerration of looney toon proportions. Those attitudes are not reflected in the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise. It's possible that only the lunatic fringe take the time to post to internet discussion boards, i.e. that my sample is skewed. But I have no idea how many people conform to that standard, and my media is certainly assuring me that they won Bush the election. If that's true or not, I don't know. That's why I asked, because I choose not to believe the media. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: What amazes me is that no-one in the USA that I've seen has a remotely sensible attitude to this. On the one hand, there are folks who reckon a woman has total right to kill a baby, virtually until it's born, on the other is the idea that any abortion should be illegal. If we're talking Christianity, surely the example of Jesus is not to legislate, but to make people aware and able to make the right choice because they understand what is right ? And I think the vast majority of Americans would agree with that, certainly I do. But you have to understand that the issue of abortion has never been decided in a democratic fashion in this country. It was decided by judicial fiat. The reason that happened is because a secular minority were concerned about the hordes of right-wing-christian-fundamentalists actually having a voice, a say, a vote, on the issue (or any issue for that matter). Because of that the extremists on both sides control the debate. Christian Graus wrote: In what way ? In precisely the way I have discribed. I don't know why that seems to be such a subtle point for so many. Government has no more business promoting secularism over christitanity than it does promoting christianity over secularism. "Separation of Church and State" should cover both contingencies - but it seems to always only be used for the latter rather than the former. Christian Graus wrote: It's possible that only the lunatic fringe take the time to post to internet discussion boards, i.e. that my sample is skewed. But I have no idea how many people conform to that standard, and my media is certainly assuring me that they won Bush the election. If that's true or not, I don't know. That's why I asked, because I choose not to believe the media. All I can say is that I felt I was left with two very clear options in this election. I examined how I was going to vote more carefully than I ever have in my life. I wanted to vote againt Bush and tried to come up with any possible way that I could cast a vote for Kerry. The problem I had was the fact that I have never beleived that the diatribe from the left was merely directed at George Bush. I felt it was directed at me, my family, my parents, my grandparents, my children, my neighbors, everyone, in fact, that I have ever known and loved. It was directed at my country - my way of life. The decision was clear cut - to vote for Kerry and cast a