Is misery valuable?
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Shog9 wrote: Consider all the moments of your life (or those you can remember), and your enjoyment (or lack) of them, subjective though it is. Consider the value you place on your life. Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had? This is something that's kind of odd about us humans. We wouldn't want to change the past in many cases - even when it is painful. Yet, if you said, "Take a particular painful experience that you would not have wanted to eliminate from your past, now imagine that you have the choice to going to go through it again, would you want to?" In the majority of cases, suddenly people will change their answer. All the arguments about "I learned something from that painful experience" seem to fade away simply by moving the location of an experience from past to future. I think part of this is explained by the fact that our past - even the painful past - is part of our life, and we feel less complete when you take away pieces of our life. That's what life is: the "bitter-sweet symphony", yet that doesn't mean life has the right mixture of bitter and sweet. Marc wrote: Nope. It's those painful moments that taught me things. Whether to look both ways crossing the street or look both ways before getting into a relationship. Marc is arguing here that painful moments taught him things. Look closely, though, because he's really arguing that all painful experiences taught him things. I would argue that many painful experiences teach us things, but there are some experiences which leave us weakened and harmed. Neitsche says, "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger", but he's wrong. I can come up with plenty of experiences that I would take away from people's pasts. My friend's sister was in a car accident (a drunk driver hit them) and killed her brother-in-law. I think the experience was bad. I would prevent that accident from ever happening if I could reach into the past and change it. Too much was lost and nothing was gained. I have another friend who's fiance died suddenly three months ago. I would stop that from happening as well. Ultimately, we have to ask, "Does the painful experience produce enough good to legitimize the pain?" In some cases the answer is clearly no. [Edit] Consider this possibility: you have the choice to rape someone today. Do you do it? What if that person you raped decided years f
A characteristically thoughtful and rational post. John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
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Shog9 wrote: Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Nope. It's those painful moments that taught me things. Whether to look both ways crossing the street or look both ways before getting into a relationship. Shog9 wrote: Would it be worthless if they were all you had? Nope. Life would still be worthwhile because it's life. Infinitely better than the alternative. However, I can also empathize with people who feel differently. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
Marc Clifton wrote: or look both ways before getting into a relationship. Ah, a fellow-(got-into-a-bad-relationship) guy :-) Been there, done that, know what it's like. And it wasn't nice, not at all! X| Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Consider all the moments of your life (or those you can remember), and your enjoyment (or lack) of them, subjective though it is. Consider the value you place on your life. Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..."As much as I wish the painful moments had never happened, they taught me lessons that now allow me to appreciate my life a lot better than I would otherwise.
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Shog9 wrote: Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Nope. It's those painful moments that taught me things. Whether to look both ways crossing the street or look both ways before getting into a relationship. Shog9 wrote: Would it be worthless if they were all you had? Nope. Life would still be worthwhile because it's life. Infinitely better than the alternative. However, I can also empathize with people who feel differently. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
Marc Clifton wrote: look both ways crossing the street Have you been hit by a car?
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
Consider all the moments of your life (or those you can remember), and your enjoyment (or lack) of them, subjective though it is. Consider the value you place on your life. Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..."Shog9 wrote: Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had? Have I learned from the pain? Have I learned that the suffering may have a greater purpose? Have I found the source of that greater purpose?
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
Consider all the moments of your life (or those you can remember), and your enjoyment (or lack) of them, subjective though it is. Consider the value you place on your life. Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..."Something else I wonder about is if the cause of my misery enables happiness or a learned lesson for someone else. We are all connected so I don't think you can look at misery simply from your own POV. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
Marc Clifton wrote: or look both ways before getting into a relationship. Ah, a fellow-(got-into-a-bad-relationship) guy :-) Been there, done that, know what it's like. And it wasn't nice, not at all! X| Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
You have many, many fellows. Bad relationships come with life, no extra charge, they are character building.:) regards, Paul Watson South Africa Michael Dunn wrote: "except the sod who voted this a 1, NO SOUP FOR YOU" Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Shog9 wrote: Consider all the moments of your life (or those you can remember), and your enjoyment (or lack) of them, subjective though it is. Consider the value you place on your life. Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had? This is something that's kind of odd about us humans. We wouldn't want to change the past in many cases - even when it is painful. Yet, if you said, "Take a particular painful experience that you would not have wanted to eliminate from your past, now imagine that you have the choice to going to go through it again, would you want to?" In the majority of cases, suddenly people will change their answer. All the arguments about "I learned something from that painful experience" seem to fade away simply by moving the location of an experience from past to future. I think part of this is explained by the fact that our past - even the painful past - is part of our life, and we feel less complete when you take away pieces of our life. That's what life is: the "bitter-sweet symphony", yet that doesn't mean life has the right mixture of bitter and sweet. Marc wrote: Nope. It's those painful moments that taught me things. Whether to look both ways crossing the street or look both ways before getting into a relationship. Marc is arguing here that painful moments taught him things. Look closely, though, because he's really arguing that all painful experiences taught him things. I would argue that many painful experiences teach us things, but there are some experiences which leave us weakened and harmed. Neitsche says, "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger", but he's wrong. I can come up with plenty of experiences that I would take away from people's pasts. My friend's sister was in a car accident (a drunk driver hit them) and killed her brother-in-law. I think the experience was bad. I would prevent that accident from ever happening if I could reach into the past and change it. Too much was lost and nothing was gained. I have another friend who's fiance died suddenly three months ago. I would stop that from happening as well. Ultimately, we have to ask, "Does the painful experience produce enough good to legitimize the pain?" In some cases the answer is clearly no. [Edit] Consider this possibility: you have the choice to rape someone today. Do you do it? What if that person you raped decided years f
I agree with much of what you wrote. It is very thoughtful, however not very practical. The whatif's you talk about are nothing more than a mental exercise. We still can't turn back time or know the future. In the present, our mistakes and the wrongs done to us by others leave us with options, none of which involve erasing the past. We can choose to learn from our mistakes and from the pain inflicted by others and grow stronger or we can spend our life in bitterness, unforgiveness, and resentment. I chose the former. Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Marc Clifton wrote: look both ways crossing the street Have you been hit by a car?
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: Have you been hit by a car? Yes, when I was 17. It was a complicated situation (aren't they always). I was crossing an intersection on a bicycle, with a green light. The intersection did not have a separate left turn process, so the opposing traffic was going both straight and turning left. The left turn was a two lane turn out of a shopping mall (I was going to Radio Shack, can you say GEEK?) The car in the outer left lane appropriately stopped for me, as they should for any vehicular traffic going straight through the intersection. The car in the inner left lane did not see me and did not stop. Nor did I see them. The result was a fractured knee joint. Fortunately no more, because I wasn't wearing a helmet (>20 years ago before helmet laws) and I also had a minor concussion. The intersection was subsequently made into a 3-way intersection--first mall traffic exits, then the street traffic can move forward into the mall. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
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Consider all the moments of your life (or those you can remember), and your enjoyment (or lack) of them, subjective though it is. Consider the value you place on your life. Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..."Porch sitting wouldn't be much fun if we didn't have past tales of woe to tell, now would it? Brit has a point. Most of my bad experiences have taught me something but there are a few I'd prefer not to have had. Many of my experiences have been a closely knit string of good and bad. Sometimes the bad had to happen to get through to the good. Some of the bad ones were the most profound moments of my life, not to be traded in for anything. Some of them I would live through again if for nothing else than the stark reality of the moment, the feeling of being very much alive. Cliched it may be but the idea of good and bad being opposite sides of the coin of life seems apt to me. It would be unthinkable to remove one side, it wouldn't be a coin anymore, not a life. So what got you to thinking such profound thoughts, young man? regards, Paul Watson South Africa Michael Dunn wrote: "except the sod who voted this a 1, NO SOUP FOR YOU" Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Porch sitting wouldn't be much fun if we didn't have past tales of woe to tell, now would it? Brit has a point. Most of my bad experiences have taught me something but there are a few I'd prefer not to have had. Many of my experiences have been a closely knit string of good and bad. Sometimes the bad had to happen to get through to the good. Some of the bad ones were the most profound moments of my life, not to be traded in for anything. Some of them I would live through again if for nothing else than the stark reality of the moment, the feeling of being very much alive. Cliched it may be but the idea of good and bad being opposite sides of the coin of life seems apt to me. It would be unthinkable to remove one side, it wouldn't be a coin anymore, not a life. So what got you to thinking such profound thoughts, young man? regards, Paul Watson South Africa Michael Dunn wrote: "except the sod who voted this a 1, NO SOUP FOR YOU" Crikey! ain't life grand?
:) There was a discussion a few threads back that got me thinking... It's easy to talk about the percieved worth of others' lives, especially in hypothetical situations. But more interesting to discuss your own, i think...
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..." -
Consider all the moments of your life (or those you can remember), and your enjoyment (or lack) of them, subjective though it is. Consider the value you place on your life. Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..."It worked for Fyodor Dostoevsky, he would have been a nobody if he grew up in a life of leisure in the Bahamas. Most everyone needs goads to excel in life look at anyone truly sucessful and they didn't get that way because they "thought it might be interesting". Underlying every great life or even every great action is probably a lot of misery somewhere.
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You have many, many fellows. Bad relationships come with life, no extra charge, they are character building.:) regards, Paul Watson South Africa Michael Dunn wrote: "except the sod who voted this a 1, NO SOUP FOR YOU" Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: Bad relationships come with life, no extra charge, they are character building Pay attention to the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. I have been married ( to the same woman ) for 35 years. We dated for two years before making the big step and we knew each others good and bad points. We have had our highs and lows - like any couple would - but never in all those years have we even came close to the point where we would consider leaving each other - even the time when she left me at a gas station 145 mile from home for telling her that her beef stew was horrible. Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
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I agree with much of what you wrote. It is very thoughtful, however not very practical. The whatif's you talk about are nothing more than a mental exercise. We still can't turn back time or know the future. In the present, our mistakes and the wrongs done to us by others leave us with options, none of which involve erasing the past. We can choose to learn from our mistakes and from the pain inflicted by others and grow stronger or we can spend our life in bitterness, unforgiveness, and resentment. I chose the former. Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote: or we can spend our life in bitterness, unforgiveness, and resentment Being bitter and resentfull can have its moments - look at the Democratic Party for example.. Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
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Paul Watson wrote: Bad relationships come with life, no extra charge, they are character building Pay attention to the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. I have been married ( to the same woman ) for 35 years. We dated for two years before making the big step and we knew each others good and bad points. We have had our highs and lows - like any couple would - but never in all those years have we even came close to the point where we would consider leaving each other - even the time when she left me at a gas station 145 mile from home for telling her that her beef stew was horrible. Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
Richard Stringer wrote: even the time when she left me at a gas station 145 mile from home for telling her that her beef stew was horrible. :omg: What did you learn from that? One might be tempted to learn that, "honesty doesn't pay." I have always found that it was best to keep my mouth shut. However, then you get the "we never talk anymore" speech. :) Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Gary Kirkham wrote: or we can spend our life in bitterness, unforgiveness, and resentment Being bitter and resentfull can have its moments - look at the Democratic Party for example.. Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
:) Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Richard Stringer wrote: even the time when she left me at a gas station 145 mile from home for telling her that her beef stew was horrible. :omg: What did you learn from that? One might be tempted to learn that, "honesty doesn't pay." I have always found that it was best to keep my mouth shut. However, then you get the "we never talk anymore" speech. :) Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote: What did you learn from that? One might be tempted to learn that, "honesty doesn't pay." One of the many things that comes with age is the ability to critize without being blunt or damaging someones ego. Not really the ability ( that must be learned ) but the necessity of doing so. So instead of saying "The stew sucked" I would now say "That was OK but seemed to be lacking a little something". That "little something" of course being that it tasted like an old tire but we need not mention that part :) Its like someone asking you to look at a piece of code and give your opinion. So you look at this little gem and notice that there are 0 comments - multiple exit points from functions - unneeded code that actually did nothing - variables that were not initialised - etc.. Other than that the code did what it was supposed to but was about 3 times as lengthy as it needed to be. Do you say "This code sucks" or do you say "If I were you I would make sure that I got no warnings on level 4 before using this. It seems a bit lengthy and verbose". Or something like that. Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
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Gary Kirkham wrote: What did you learn from that? One might be tempted to learn that, "honesty doesn't pay." One of the many things that comes with age is the ability to critize without being blunt or damaging someones ego. Not really the ability ( that must be learned ) but the necessity of doing so. So instead of saying "The stew sucked" I would now say "That was OK but seemed to be lacking a little something". That "little something" of course being that it tasted like an old tire but we need not mention that part :) Its like someone asking you to look at a piece of code and give your opinion. So you look at this little gem and notice that there are 0 comments - multiple exit points from functions - unneeded code that actually did nothing - variables that were not initialised - etc.. Other than that the code did what it was supposed to but was about 3 times as lengthy as it needed to be. Do you say "This code sucks" or do you say "If I were you I would make sure that I got no warnings on level 4 before using this. It seems a bit lengthy and verbose". Or something like that. Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
Life is full of learning opportunities. Like the time, not long after we started dating, that I asked my future wife what she wanted for her birthday. Her ony reply was that she wanted a new power cord for her electric skillet. You guessed it, that was all I got her. The lesson learned on my part, and the means by which I learned it, is obvious. Still, to this day (22 years later) she tells me what she really wants, when I ask her. Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Consider all the moments of your life (or those you can remember), and your enjoyment (or lack) of them, subjective though it is. Consider the value you place on your life. Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Would it be worthless if they were all you had?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..."Shog9 wrote: Would it be worth more to you if all moments of physical or emotional pain and suffering had not existed? Considering how I've lived until now, it wouldn't make my life any more valuable. I'm where I'm at because of what I've done and experienced. Although some things could be better, but I'm pretty much content with my life right now. Shog9 wrote: Would it be worthless if they were all you had? If it was all I had ever had, then I'd probably be very ill. Maybe so ill that I'd just give up and jump. -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. I blog too now[^]
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I agree with much of what you wrote. It is very thoughtful, however not very practical. The whatif's you talk about are nothing more than a mental exercise. We still can't turn back time or know the future. In the present, our mistakes and the wrongs done to us by others leave us with options, none of which involve erasing the past. We can choose to learn from our mistakes and from the pain inflicted by others and grow stronger or we can spend our life in bitterness, unforgiveness, and resentment. I chose the former. Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote: We still can't turn back time or know the future. In the present, our mistakes and the wrongs done to us by others leave us with options, none of which involve erasing the past. We can choose to learn from our mistakes and from the pain inflicted by others and grow stronger or we can spend our life in bitterness, unforgiveness, and resentment. I chose the former. Acknowledgement that past misery has not been worth the good that came from it is a different issue than trying to make the best of it. Pretending that past pain produced more good than bad may be a useful psychological trick to prevent us from becoming bitter. Though that's only an issue if you can't simply accept the truth about the past without getting bitter about it. ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]