America bashing - the opium of the intellectual
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Ramanan Sivan wrote: It draws the almost childish conclusion that all America bashing is done by socialists without anything to support it I did not get the impression the author tries to attribute all America bashing to socialists. I got the impression he is instead interested in presenting relations between various anti american ideologies with focus on Marxism. Especially insightfull is the symbolism surrounding 9/11 attack. Tomaz
But why pick Marxism in the first place ? It has no place in actual American ideology (beyond a nameless hatred of the USSR). Note that he is speaking of America bashers inside the United States as well. Since there is so significant Marxist presence inside the USA where is the logic of drawing parallels between Marxism and America bashing ? "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
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One of the best analysis on America bashing so far, it is long but it is worth reading to the last letter - http://www.policyreview.org/DEC02/harris.html[^] Tomaz
yes, it was long. But this investment of world-historical significance to 9-11 is simply wishful thinking on the part of the left. It is an effort to transform the demented acts of a group of fantasists into the vanguard of the world revolution. ... Any realistic assessment of any possible scenario will inevitably conclude that nothing that al Qaeda can do can cause the collapse of America and the capitalist system. luckily, that's not a feeling shared by many people on the American left. the American right, on the other hand, has taken that feeling to heart and has given us three years of dire warnings of Arabs overrunning western civilization, wrapping western women in burkas, and forcing all to worship allah 5x/day. while chastizing the left for not being properly worried by the threat, they themselves have gone screaming off to the other extreme, where Islamist terrorism is a mortal threat to the very foundations of western civilization. see the soapbox for any number of variations on this, if you doubt me. as far as the rest of it goes... well, i'm not familiar enough with the thought processes of the average European leftist to know if this writer's thesis is strong enough to support his use of all those 20kg words. [ok, i give up. why the votes?] Software | Cleek
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But why pick Marxism in the first place ? It has no place in actual American ideology (beyond a nameless hatred of the USSR). Note that he is speaking of America bashers inside the United States as well. Since there is so significant Marxist presence inside the USA where is the logic of drawing parallels between Marxism and America bashing ? "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
The whole idea of modern left, including fundamental terms, such as class struggle, derives from Marxism. It is the ideological foundation of the entire construct. The article then traces the path of this ideology explaining how it has reinvented itself by focusing on third world and fictional exploitation once the domestic worker was due to higher standard of living no longer interested in the revolution. Tomaz
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The whole idea of modern left, including fundamental terms, such as class struggle, derives from Marxism. It is the ideological foundation of the entire construct. The article then traces the path of this ideology explaining how it has reinvented itself by focusing on third world and fictional exploitation once the domestic worker was due to higher standard of living no longer interested in the revolution. Tomaz
I challenge the premise of the writer in assuming a strong correlation between the American Left and Marxism. While this may be true for many other countries the long history of acrimony between the United States and the USSR makes it extremely unlikely that there are endorsers of Maxrist theory even among the American Left. "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
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One of the best analysis on America bashing so far, it is long but it is worth reading to the last letter - http://www.policyreview.org/DEC02/harris.html[^] Tomaz
An interesting read. However, I find that the narrow definition of "America bashing" presented at beginning of the article serves to limit the usefulness of the concepts provided. For example: "It is not that America went wrong here or there; it is that it is wrong root and branch. The conviction at the heart of those who engage in it is really quite simple: that America is an unmitigated evil, an irredeemable enormity." The author sets forth a definition so limiting, that I cannot conceive of a person fitting into the category of "America basher".
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Negating there's a right-wing anti-americanism[^] is either stupidity or disinformation.
Fold With Us! That's what military intelligence does: fail. They should just drop the facade and call MI the "Department of 'Whoops!'" - Gary Brecher, aka The War Nerd
Does it really matter from whence it came, right or left? Isn't it all really just good old fashioned ethnocentrism? To quote the once wise philosipher :-D Jim Morrison[^], People are strange when you're a stranger[^]
Paul Lyons, CCPL
Certified Code Project Lurker -
That was me, BTW, in case there were any doubts! "The Yahoos refused to be tamed." from 'The Right Nation'
And amazingly enough, two 1 votes on both threads... People are fickle!
Paul Lyons, CCPL
Certified Code Project Lurker -
yes, it was long. But this investment of world-historical significance to 9-11 is simply wishful thinking on the part of the left. It is an effort to transform the demented acts of a group of fantasists into the vanguard of the world revolution. ... Any realistic assessment of any possible scenario will inevitably conclude that nothing that al Qaeda can do can cause the collapse of America and the capitalist system. luckily, that's not a feeling shared by many people on the American left. the American right, on the other hand, has taken that feeling to heart and has given us three years of dire warnings of Arabs overrunning western civilization, wrapping western women in burkas, and forcing all to worship allah 5x/day. while chastizing the left for not being properly worried by the threat, they themselves have gone screaming off to the other extreme, where Islamist terrorism is a mortal threat to the very foundations of western civilization. see the soapbox for any number of variations on this, if you doubt me. as far as the rest of it goes... well, i'm not familiar enough with the thought processes of the average European leftist to know if this writer's thesis is strong enough to support his use of all those 20kg words. [ok, i give up. why the votes?] Software | Cleek
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I challenge the premise of the writer in assuming a strong correlation between the American Left and Marxism. While this may be true for many other countries the long history of acrimony between the United States and the USSR makes it extremely unlikely that there are endorsers of Maxrist theory even among the American Left. "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
Ramanan Sivan wrote: I challenge the premise of the writer in assuming a strong correlation between the American Left and Marxism. While this may be true for many other countries the long history of acrimony between the United States and the USSR makes it extremely unlikely that there are endorsers of Maxrist theory even among the American Left. Perhaps than you could enlighten us as to the real intellectual origins of the modern left. If collectivism, secularism, and stateism are not the modern intellectual progeny of Marx, to whom than can they ultimately be attributed? "The Yahoos refused to be tamed." from 'The Right Nation'
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Ramanan Sivan wrote: I challenge the premise of the writer in assuming a strong correlation between the American Left and Marxism. While this may be true for many other countries the long history of acrimony between the United States and the USSR makes it extremely unlikely that there are endorsers of Maxrist theory even among the American Left. Perhaps than you could enlighten us as to the real intellectual origins of the modern left. If collectivism, secularism, and stateism are not the modern intellectual progeny of Marx, to whom than can they ultimately be attributed? "The Yahoos refused to be tamed." from 'The Right Nation'
Its possible to be Leftist without being Marxist. I would point you to the popular Left support that Lionel Jospin enjoys in France which is not really Marxist (though his views are, his support base is largely Leftist and non-Marxist). I believe the term Left is now being widely used to include all groups that advocate radical change of thought. Its no longer confined in its scope to describe only the Socialists. "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
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Its possible to be Leftist without being Marxist. I would point you to the popular Left support that Lionel Jospin enjoys in France which is not really Marxist (though his views are, his support base is largely Leftist and non-Marxist). I believe the term Left is now being widely used to include all groups that advocate radical change of thought. Its no longer confined in its scope to describe only the Socialists. "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
Ramanan Sivan wrote: Its possible to be Leftist without being Marxist. I would point you to the popular Left support that Lionel Jospin enjoys in France which is not really Marxist (though his views are, his support base is largely Leftist and non-Marxist). I believe the term Left is now being widely used to include all groups that advocate radical change of thought. Its no longer confined in its scope to describe only the Socialists. I can accept that, but it does not really answer my question. To whom do we give credit for the intellectual foundations of the modern left? Is it Lionel Jospin? If so, how would Jospinism be distinquished from Marxism? If not, isn't anyone willing to stand up and take credit for it? You can't really blame people for continueing to call it Marxism when ever the real thinkers behind it remain nameless can you? "The Yahoos refused to be tamed." from 'The Right Nation'
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Ramanan Sivan wrote: Its possible to be Leftist without being Marxist. I would point you to the popular Left support that Lionel Jospin enjoys in France which is not really Marxist (though his views are, his support base is largely Leftist and non-Marxist). I believe the term Left is now being widely used to include all groups that advocate radical change of thought. Its no longer confined in its scope to describe only the Socialists. I can accept that, but it does not really answer my question. To whom do we give credit for the intellectual foundations of the modern left? Is it Lionel Jospin? If so, how would Jospinism be distinquished from Marxism? If not, isn't anyone willing to stand up and take credit for it? You can't really blame people for continueing to call it Marxism when ever the real thinkers behind it remain nameless can you? "The Yahoos refused to be tamed." from 'The Right Nation'
Stan Shannon wrote: To whom do we give credit for the intellectual foundations I'm glad you said credit instead of blame :) If we're seeking to give credit to someone for creating Socialism it would probaby my Marx. If all Leftist thought were Socialist thought we could give Marx the credit for that too. However, since (as you say) clearly is not the case (Leftism has far broader scope than Marxism) I doubt Marx can be called the creator of all radical thought (much as I like Marx) "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
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Chris Losinger wrote: [ok, i give up. why the votes?] Merry Christmas?
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things..."i think the phrase you want is Merry Season of Merryment and Melody[^]. that other one is out of fashion with the evil leftist establishment and all they control. Software | Cleek
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i think the phrase you want is Merry Season of Merryment and Melody[^]. that other one is out of fashion with the evil leftist establishment and all they control. Software | Cleek
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Stan Shannon wrote: To whom do we give credit for the intellectual foundations I'm glad you said credit instead of blame :) If we're seeking to give credit to someone for creating Socialism it would probaby my Marx. If all Leftist thought were Socialist thought we could give Marx the credit for that too. However, since (as you say) clearly is not the case (Leftism has far broader scope than Marxism) I doubt Marx can be called the creator of all radical thought (much as I like Marx) "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
Ramanan Sivan wrote: Leftism has far broader scope than Marxism In what way? Could you give me a couple of example of the "radicalism" embraced by the modern left that Marx would have been uncomfortable with? Ramanan Sivan wrote: much as I like Marx What do you like about him? "The Yahoos refused to be tamed." from 'The Right Nation'
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Fight the power, Chris - Merry Christmas! :rolleyes:
You left me high and dry and changed me You lied to me and now i’m angry**...** -
Ramanan Sivan wrote: Leftism has far broader scope than Marxism In what way? Could you give me a couple of example of the "radicalism" embraced by the modern left that Marx would have been uncomfortable with? Ramanan Sivan wrote: much as I like Marx What do you like about him? "The Yahoos refused to be tamed." from 'The Right Nation'
Stan Shannon wrote: In what way? Could you give me a couple of example of the "radicalism" embraced by the modern left that Marx would have been uncomfortable with? Well, the point I'm trying to make is that Communism and Left principles as we know it now are not the exact same thing. For instance, Marx did not care one way or the other about abortion or gay rights (I think) but these are now more or less part of Leftist thought. Likewise Communism precludes belief in God and the practice of religion which does not mean that everyone who belongs to the Left in the present day world is such. Stan Shannon wrote: What do you like about him? That his ideas were new, extermely relevant to a time of Imperialism "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."
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Does it really matter from whence it came, right or left? Isn't it all really just good old fashioned ethnocentrism? To quote the once wise philosipher :-D Jim Morrison[^], People are strange when you're a stranger[^]
Paul Lyons, CCPL
Certified Code Project LurkerEffectively, no, it doesn't matter, as doesn't matter the target of such xenophobia. The problem is indeed this irrational hatred towards a "different" if not unknown group of people.
Fold With Us! That's what military intelligence does: fail. They should just drop the facade and call MI the "Department of 'Whoops!'" - Gary Brecher, aka The War Nerd