Evolution and Stickers Revisted
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jan larsen wrote: , but isn't there anything in your constitution, that protects the children and those who can't speak for themselves? I'm sure a competant enough secularist could "discover" that in our constitution if it could be used to further the marginalization of non-secular pholosophies. But, otherwise, no, the federal constitution bascially only outlines how the federal government is to function in a very generic way and than says every other consideration should be taken care of by the local yokels in their home towns. It is a very generic document now being used to force a very specific set of political principles upon the people in direct opposition to the intentions of the framers. jan larsen wrote: Yes, children must learn to think for themselves, but you don't start teaching children math by going through the principles, and then let them figure it out. You need to set up some basic rules, and with time, some of them will start asking questions. And if I were a resident of Cobb Co, GA, that is very much the argument I would have made to dissuade them from putting up their silly stickers. But I am not a resident of that county, and neither are you, so the issue really doesn't concern us. What should be an issue to all of us is putting political power back into the hands of the people and letting them sort these kinds of issues out for themselves. The schools, the books, and the children all belong to the people of Cobb CO, Ga. They don't need big daddy government or me or you telling them how to manage their local affairs. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: says every other consideration should be taken care of by the local yokels in their home towns The point of state-sponsored education is to expose the student to the collectively acquired knowledge of the human race and not just whatever yokels #31-63 decide their children should learn. It is the state's responsibility to ensure that students in all parts of the country get an equally representative education. Without educational standards, how can you then compare the ability of two students from across the country when all you get is a transcript? Switch to a 'teach the standardized test' system? How is that education?
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Stan Shannon wrote: says every other consideration should be taken care of by the local yokels in their home towns The point of state-sponsored education is to expose the student to the collectively acquired knowledge of the human race and not just whatever yokels #31-63 decide their children should learn. It is the state's responsibility to ensure that students in all parts of the country get an equally representative education. Without educational standards, how can you then compare the ability of two students from across the country when all you get is a transcript? Switch to a 'teach the standardized test' system? How is that education?
Anonymous wrote: The point of state-sponsored education is to expose the student to the collectively acquired knowledge of the human race and not just whatever yokels #31-63 decide their children should learn. If you had ever been exposed to the "collectively acquired knowledge of the human race" than you would understand that in the case of the US, that is not true. Our government was originally designed specifically to be managed from the bottom up by local yokels. That was the entire point of the American Revolution and why it was such a significant event in world history. But I can't blame you for not knowing that since the Secualrist state is very selective about what it wants you to know. Anonymous wrote: It is the state's responsibility to ensure that students in all parts of the country get an equally representative education. No, it is the state's repsonsibility to make sure the mail gets delivered on time, and to make sure that no one invades the country while the rest of us are dealing with how to raise our children however we damn well please. Anonymous wrote: Without educational standards, how can you then compare the ability of two students from across the country when all you get is a transcript? Switch to a 'teach the standardized test' system? How is that education? The only way to prevent education from evolving into political indoctrination (which given arguments such as yours has clearly already happened )is to keep the government as far away from the process as possible. Relax and let the parents run the show, they know what is best for their own children. Besides, a little exposure to diverse moral philosophies such as christianity is not going to harm anyone. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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time to get out your flintlock and start the revolution. kill some lefties for jesus! Image Toolkits | Image Processing | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: time to get out your flintlock and start the revolution. kill some lefties for jesus! Hopefully, if W has the balls to actually act like a conservative and pack the courts with judges who interpret the constitution as written, it will be the left grabbing their muskets to kill some neo-cons for .... well, for "the great nothing" or whatever the hell it is they believe in. Oh wait, their liberals, they don't have muskets! Well too bad than, eh? I suppose they'll just have to continue their revolution of whining. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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Chris Losinger wrote: time to get out your flintlock and start the revolution. kill some lefties for jesus! Hopefully, if W has the balls to actually act like a conservative and pack the courts with judges who interpret the constitution as written, it will be the left grabbing their muskets to kill some neo-cons for .... well, for "the great nothing" or whatever the hell it is they believe in. Oh wait, their liberals, they don't have muskets! Well too bad than, eh? I suppose they'll just have to continue their revolution of whining. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: I suppose they'll just have to continue their revolution of whining. the irony is so thick i can barely breathe Image Toolkits | Image Processing | Cleek
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jan larsen wrote: , but isn't there anything in your constitution, that protects the children and those who can't speak for themselves? I'm sure a competant enough secularist could "discover" that in our constitution if it could be used to further the marginalization of non-secular pholosophies. But, otherwise, no, the federal constitution bascially only outlines how the federal government is to function in a very generic way and than says every other consideration should be taken care of by the local yokels in their home towns. It is a very generic document now being used to force a very specific set of political principles upon the people in direct opposition to the intentions of the framers. jan larsen wrote: Yes, children must learn to think for themselves, but you don't start teaching children math by going through the principles, and then let them figure it out. You need to set up some basic rules, and with time, some of them will start asking questions. And if I were a resident of Cobb Co, GA, that is very much the argument I would have made to dissuade them from putting up their silly stickers. But I am not a resident of that county, and neither are you, so the issue really doesn't concern us. What should be an issue to all of us is putting political power back into the hands of the people and letting them sort these kinds of issues out for themselves. The schools, the books, and the children all belong to the people of Cobb CO, Ga. They don't need big daddy government or me or you telling them how to manage their local affairs. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: The schools, the books, and the children all belong to the people of Cobb CO, Ga. They don't need big daddy government or me or you telling them how to manage their local affairs. And where do you put the limit then?, what if a county finds it a splendid idea, that the young should learn sex by the old?. This is, according to Christian Graus, part of the aboriginal culture, so I guess that a county should be small enough, to cough up enough loonies to pass such an idea. What kind of control would you suggest to avoid such situations if your idea of total autonomy was implemented? "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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Anonymous wrote: The point of state-sponsored education is to expose the student to the collectively acquired knowledge of the human race and not just whatever yokels #31-63 decide their children should learn. If you had ever been exposed to the "collectively acquired knowledge of the human race" than you would understand that in the case of the US, that is not true. Our government was originally designed specifically to be managed from the bottom up by local yokels. That was the entire point of the American Revolution and why it was such a significant event in world history. But I can't blame you for not knowing that since the Secualrist state is very selective about what it wants you to know. Anonymous wrote: It is the state's responsibility to ensure that students in all parts of the country get an equally representative education. No, it is the state's repsonsibility to make sure the mail gets delivered on time, and to make sure that no one invades the country while the rest of us are dealing with how to raise our children however we damn well please. Anonymous wrote: Without educational standards, how can you then compare the ability of two students from across the country when all you get is a transcript? Switch to a 'teach the standardized test' system? How is that education? The only way to prevent education from evolving into political indoctrination (which given arguments such as yours has clearly already happened )is to keep the government as far away from the process as possible. Relax and let the parents run the show, they know what is best for their own children. Besides, a little exposure to diverse moral philosophies such as christianity is not going to harm anyone. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
I notice you completely ignored the point about educational standardization and fell back to the talking points of your own agenda. Stan Shannon wrote: Our government was originally designed specifically to be managed from the bottom up by local yokels. If historical prescedent was the deciding factor in all state policies then black people and women still wouldn't be able to vote in many parts of the country. Stan Shannon wrote: Besides, a little exposure to diverse moral philosophies such as christianity is not going to harm anyone. The irony here is that the kind of system you are pushing is specifically designed to minimize diversity.
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I find it amazing that these stickers even exist. :omg: " The schools placed the stickers after more than 2,000 parents complained the textbooks presented evolution as fact, without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life. " Erm... they are Biology textbooks, they are designed to teach science not religion. Until religion can explain why our hearts beat at x times per second or why our blood is red and not green we need science. Leave religious views to RE lessons. I would like to see stickers placed on the covers of Bibles: " This book contains material on God. God is a theory, not a fact, that requires an individuals faith to work. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered. "
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
David Wulff wrote: I would like to see stickers placed on the covers of Bibles You took the words right out of my mouth. Well said.
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David Wulff wrote: I would like to see stickers placed on the covers of Bibles You took the words right out of my mouth. Well said.
Well it was just so obvious - I can't believe they didn't see that one coming. :rolleyes:
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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I notice you completely ignored the point about educational standardization and fell back to the talking points of your own agenda. Stan Shannon wrote: Our government was originally designed specifically to be managed from the bottom up by local yokels. If historical prescedent was the deciding factor in all state policies then black people and women still wouldn't be able to vote in many parts of the country. Stan Shannon wrote: Besides, a little exposure to diverse moral philosophies such as christianity is not going to harm anyone. The irony here is that the kind of system you are pushing is specifically designed to minimize diversity.
Anonymous wrote: I notice you completely ignored the point about educational standardization and fell back to the talking points of your own agenda. I ignored it because it is entirely irrelevant. You can't justified trashing the constitution to achieve "standardization". Well, I mean, unless you have an agenda you are trying to push and "standardization" is merely a means to an end for you. Anonymous wrote: If historical prescedent was the deciding factor in all state policies then black people and women still wouldn't be able to vote in many parts of the country. No they wouldn't. Both groups acquired the right to vote precisely as mandated by the framers of the constitution - by amendment. So that tired old liberal stand by has no validity in this case. Anonymous wrote: The irony here is that the kind of system you are pushing is specifically designed to minimize diversity. So having every local community deciding issues for themselves limits diversity but having a judge dictate to them what their standards will be enhances diversity? It is easy to tell that you have been brainwashed indoctrinated educated by the Secularist state. So much for critical thinking over mindlessly accepting a spoon feed world view - the religious nuts of Cobb Co., GA have nothing on you. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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Stan Shannon wrote: I suppose they'll just have to continue their revolution of whining. the irony is so thick i can barely breathe Image Toolkits | Image Processing | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: i can barely breathe Than I suppose I won't need that flintlock after all... "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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Anonymous wrote: The point of state-sponsored education is to expose the student to the collectively acquired knowledge of the human race and not just whatever yokels #31-63 decide their children should learn. If you had ever been exposed to the "collectively acquired knowledge of the human race" than you would understand that in the case of the US, that is not true. Our government was originally designed specifically to be managed from the bottom up by local yokels. That was the entire point of the American Revolution and why it was such a significant event in world history. But I can't blame you for not knowing that since the Secualrist state is very selective about what it wants you to know. Anonymous wrote: It is the state's responsibility to ensure that students in all parts of the country get an equally representative education. No, it is the state's repsonsibility to make sure the mail gets delivered on time, and to make sure that no one invades the country while the rest of us are dealing with how to raise our children however we damn well please. Anonymous wrote: Without educational standards, how can you then compare the ability of two students from across the country when all you get is a transcript? Switch to a 'teach the standardized test' system? How is that education? The only way to prevent education from evolving into political indoctrination (which given arguments such as yours has clearly already happened )is to keep the government as far away from the process as possible. Relax and let the parents run the show, they know what is best for their own children. Besides, a little exposure to diverse moral philosophies such as christianity is not going to harm anyone. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Btw, consider the Jonestown massacre. If counties were given free reign in the name of democracy, what then would stop eg. KKK members to overrun a single county and reinstate slavery? "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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Anonymous wrote: The point of state-sponsored education is to expose the student to the collectively acquired knowledge of the human race and not just whatever yokels #31-63 decide their children should learn. If you had ever been exposed to the "collectively acquired knowledge of the human race" than you would understand that in the case of the US, that is not true. Our government was originally designed specifically to be managed from the bottom up by local yokels. That was the entire point of the American Revolution and why it was such a significant event in world history. But I can't blame you for not knowing that since the Secualrist state is very selective about what it wants you to know. Anonymous wrote: It is the state's responsibility to ensure that students in all parts of the country get an equally representative education. No, it is the state's repsonsibility to make sure the mail gets delivered on time, and to make sure that no one invades the country while the rest of us are dealing with how to raise our children however we damn well please. Anonymous wrote: Without educational standards, how can you then compare the ability of two students from across the country when all you get is a transcript? Switch to a 'teach the standardized test' system? How is that education? The only way to prevent education from evolving into political indoctrination (which given arguments such as yours has clearly already happened )is to keep the government as far away from the process as possible. Relax and let the parents run the show, they know what is best for their own children. Besides, a little exposure to diverse moral philosophies such as christianity is not going to harm anyone. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: it is the state's repsonsibility to make sure the mail gets delivered on time :wtf: Why that, from your point of view?
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck Doch seh ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links
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A judge ruled[^] that the stickers placed in textbooks informing readers that evolution is a theory is unconstitutional. Yeah, the stickers are a bad idea, but are they really unconstitutional? Afterall, they aren't endorsing a religion. In fact, they aren't endorsing any alternative theory. Consider a textbook about physics (Brian Greene would be the author of course :)). If a sticker were placed in that book that read, "This textbook contains material on superstring theory. Superstrings provide a theory, not a fact, on the origin of the universe. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." It would be pretty silly right? But, is it actually unconstitutional? Just because it's silly and a waste of taxpayer money doesn't make it unconsitutional right?
I think the judge should be removed. Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. Hell, I think they should put a sticker on every text book that says, "This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." It's just a sound advice. Unconstitutional, indeed. Dumb ass. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
Stan Shannon wrote: The schools, the books, and the children all belong to the people of Cobb CO, Ga. They don't need big daddy government or me or you telling them how to manage their local affairs. And where do you put the limit then?, what if a county finds it a splendid idea, that the young should learn sex by the old?. This is, according to Christian Graus, part of the aboriginal culture, so I guess that a county should be small enough, to cough up enough loonies to pass such an idea. What kind of control would you suggest to avoid such situations if your idea of total autonomy was implemented? "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
jan larsen wrote: What kind of control would you suggest to avoid such situations if your idea of total autonomy was implemented? The kind that was put in place by the founders. The entire US system was predicated upon the ideal that people know what is in thier own best interest, and that, guided by moral principles acquired from a deeply rooted social appreciation for Judeo-Christian concepts, there would be no need for the government to concern itself with communites going towards extremes. If that did occur, than the constitution could be amended to deal with such unpredicatble contingencies as they occured. That is preciesly the way this country existed quite effectively for nearly 200 years. If our social fabric cannot exist within those parameters than the entire justification for our Revolution and our existence as a unique nation and culture is invalid. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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Yet another perfect example of the unrelenting attack from the Secularists to utterly displace any competitive set of moral principles. The people of Cobb county Ga were acting perfectly within their constitutional rights to have any damned thing they wanted plaecd within any text book they wanted in their own school district. That is precisely the how the people who wrote the constitution intended for it to work, not to be used by some fucking judge to impose his own personal set of principles without regard to the will of the people. And than the liberals stand around scratching their heads wondering why there is a reaction against this kind of tyranny. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: The people of Cobb county Ga were acting perfectly within their constitutional rights to have any damned thing they wanted plaecd within any text book they wanted in their own school district. What about the rights of the scientists who wrote the book, a piece of copyrighted material, not to have their work compromised by people who clearly don't understand how science works? There are legally protected forums for what These People want to push; the science classroom is not one of them, and in fact is also a legally protected forum: for discussion of science. There are cases when the will of the majority of people is clearly the wrong thing. It used to be the case with segregation (and still is, I'm sure, in MANY places), and is currently the case regarding gay rights. Judges, in my view, are here to protect what is right, public will be damned.
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Btw, consider the Jonestown massacre. If counties were given free reign in the name of democracy, what then would stop eg. KKK members to overrun a single county and reinstate slavery? "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
jan larsen wrote: what then would stop eg. KKK members to overrun a single county and reinstate slavery? The 13th amendment. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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The stickers clearly religiously motivated, and although the wording tried to dance around the motive, the intent was uncontitutional. Why not just a sticker with a definition of the word "Theory"? Why single out evolution? By picking that specific target, they exposed their motivation, which was an unconstitutional intrusion of religion, a backhanded endorsement of that creationism BS. I, for one am glad my tax money won't be wasted on this stupidity. Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
Of course it's religiously motivated, but in the end asking students to keep an open mind on the issue is not unconstitutional. There was no mention or endorsement of any specific relgion. Maybe spending money on stickers is a waste of money, but that's a different issue than calling them unconstitutional. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
I think the judge should be removed. Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. Hell, I think they should put a sticker on every text book that says, "This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." It's just a sound advice. Unconstitutional, indeed. Dumb ass. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the Newbrianwelsch wrote: Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. You clearly don't understand what scientific theories are. Theories that stand up over time are the strongest foundation upon which all of science is built. Because of all of the challenges that are brought against it (that it has withstood), evolution is one of the most tried and true theories in all of science.
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I find it amazing that these stickers even exist. :omg: " The schools placed the stickers after more than 2,000 parents complained the textbooks presented evolution as fact, without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life. " Erm... they are Biology textbooks, they are designed to teach science not religion. Until religion can explain why our hearts beat at x times per second or why our blood is red and not green we need science. Leave religious views to RE lessons. I would like to see stickers placed on the covers of Bibles: " This book contains material on God. God is a theory, not a fact, that requires an individuals faith to work. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered. "
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
David Wulff wrote: complained the textbooks presented evolution as fact it isn't fact, though is it? Just haven't come up with a better theory yet. I personally think it'd be great to teach other views of creation in school. It'd help to get kids to realize that there are a myriad viewpoints in the real world and what they learn in school is but the tip of the iceberg. Certainly, put it all in context who believes what, etc. but let the students make up their own mind based on available info. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
Stan Shannon wrote: The people of Cobb county Ga were acting perfectly within their constitutional rights to have any damned thing they wanted plaecd within any text book they wanted in their own school district. What about the rights of the scientists who wrote the book, a piece of copyrighted material, not to have their work compromised by people who clearly don't understand how science works? There are legally protected forums for what These People want to push; the science classroom is not one of them, and in fact is also a legally protected forum: for discussion of science. There are cases when the will of the majority of people is clearly the wrong thing. It used to be the case with segregation (and still is, I'm sure, in MANY places), and is currently the case regarding gay rights. Judges, in my view, are here to protect what is right, public will be damned.
David Kentley wrote: Judges, in my view, are here to protect what is right, public will be damned. I find that statement to be absolutely incredible and so anti-American as to be beyond belief. The entire rational for our Revolution was to free us from precisely that kind of thinking. The historic significance of the American Revolution was that it finally over turned the ability of a specific class of government sanctioned individuals to impose their moral will upon people and left the power to do just that in the hands of the people. What the hell is the difference between haing a government ran by religious authorities dictating morality and having one run by federal judges dictating moral authority? Your secularist philosophies hurl our society backwards in time 2000 years. Is that what you want?!!!! Christ almight, could you try actually thinking rather than just apeing something some fucking Marxist professor taught you. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."