Evolution and Stickers Revisted
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Anonymous wrote: The point of state-sponsored education is to expose the student to the collectively acquired knowledge of the human race and not just whatever yokels #31-63 decide their children should learn. If you had ever been exposed to the "collectively acquired knowledge of the human race" than you would understand that in the case of the US, that is not true. Our government was originally designed specifically to be managed from the bottom up by local yokels. That was the entire point of the American Revolution and why it was such a significant event in world history. But I can't blame you for not knowing that since the Secualrist state is very selective about what it wants you to know. Anonymous wrote: It is the state's responsibility to ensure that students in all parts of the country get an equally representative education. No, it is the state's repsonsibility to make sure the mail gets delivered on time, and to make sure that no one invades the country while the rest of us are dealing with how to raise our children however we damn well please. Anonymous wrote: Without educational standards, how can you then compare the ability of two students from across the country when all you get is a transcript? Switch to a 'teach the standardized test' system? How is that education? The only way to prevent education from evolving into political indoctrination (which given arguments such as yours has clearly already happened )is to keep the government as far away from the process as possible. Relax and let the parents run the show, they know what is best for their own children. Besides, a little exposure to diverse moral philosophies such as christianity is not going to harm anyone. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: it is the state's repsonsibility to make sure the mail gets delivered on time :wtf: Why that, from your point of view?
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A judge ruled[^] that the stickers placed in textbooks informing readers that evolution is a theory is unconstitutional. Yeah, the stickers are a bad idea, but are they really unconstitutional? Afterall, they aren't endorsing a religion. In fact, they aren't endorsing any alternative theory. Consider a textbook about physics (Brian Greene would be the author of course :)). If a sticker were placed in that book that read, "This textbook contains material on superstring theory. Superstrings provide a theory, not a fact, on the origin of the universe. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." It would be pretty silly right? But, is it actually unconstitutional? Just because it's silly and a waste of taxpayer money doesn't make it unconsitutional right?
I think the judge should be removed. Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. Hell, I think they should put a sticker on every text book that says, "This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." It's just a sound advice. Unconstitutional, indeed. Dumb ass. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
Stan Shannon wrote: The schools, the books, and the children all belong to the people of Cobb CO, Ga. They don't need big daddy government or me or you telling them how to manage their local affairs. And where do you put the limit then?, what if a county finds it a splendid idea, that the young should learn sex by the old?. This is, according to Christian Graus, part of the aboriginal culture, so I guess that a county should be small enough, to cough up enough loonies to pass such an idea. What kind of control would you suggest to avoid such situations if your idea of total autonomy was implemented? "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
jan larsen wrote: What kind of control would you suggest to avoid such situations if your idea of total autonomy was implemented? The kind that was put in place by the founders. The entire US system was predicated upon the ideal that people know what is in thier own best interest, and that, guided by moral principles acquired from a deeply rooted social appreciation for Judeo-Christian concepts, there would be no need for the government to concern itself with communites going towards extremes. If that did occur, than the constitution could be amended to deal with such unpredicatble contingencies as they occured. That is preciesly the way this country existed quite effectively for nearly 200 years. If our social fabric cannot exist within those parameters than the entire justification for our Revolution and our existence as a unique nation and culture is invalid. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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Yet another perfect example of the unrelenting attack from the Secularists to utterly displace any competitive set of moral principles. The people of Cobb county Ga were acting perfectly within their constitutional rights to have any damned thing they wanted plaecd within any text book they wanted in their own school district. That is precisely the how the people who wrote the constitution intended for it to work, not to be used by some fucking judge to impose his own personal set of principles without regard to the will of the people. And than the liberals stand around scratching their heads wondering why there is a reaction against this kind of tyranny. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: The people of Cobb county Ga were acting perfectly within their constitutional rights to have any damned thing they wanted plaecd within any text book they wanted in their own school district. What about the rights of the scientists who wrote the book, a piece of copyrighted material, not to have their work compromised by people who clearly don't understand how science works? There are legally protected forums for what These People want to push; the science classroom is not one of them, and in fact is also a legally protected forum: for discussion of science. There are cases when the will of the majority of people is clearly the wrong thing. It used to be the case with segregation (and still is, I'm sure, in MANY places), and is currently the case regarding gay rights. Judges, in my view, are here to protect what is right, public will be damned.
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Btw, consider the Jonestown massacre. If counties were given free reign in the name of democracy, what then would stop eg. KKK members to overrun a single county and reinstate slavery? "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
jan larsen wrote: what then would stop eg. KKK members to overrun a single county and reinstate slavery? The 13th amendment. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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The stickers clearly religiously motivated, and although the wording tried to dance around the motive, the intent was uncontitutional. Why not just a sticker with a definition of the word "Theory"? Why single out evolution? By picking that specific target, they exposed their motivation, which was an unconstitutional intrusion of religion, a backhanded endorsement of that creationism BS. I, for one am glad my tax money won't be wasted on this stupidity. Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
Of course it's religiously motivated, but in the end asking students to keep an open mind on the issue is not unconstitutional. There was no mention or endorsement of any specific relgion. Maybe spending money on stickers is a waste of money, but that's a different issue than calling them unconstitutional. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
I think the judge should be removed. Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. Hell, I think they should put a sticker on every text book that says, "This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." It's just a sound advice. Unconstitutional, indeed. Dumb ass. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the Newbrianwelsch wrote: Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. You clearly don't understand what scientific theories are. Theories that stand up over time are the strongest foundation upon which all of science is built. Because of all of the challenges that are brought against it (that it has withstood), evolution is one of the most tried and true theories in all of science.
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I find it amazing that these stickers even exist. :omg: " The schools placed the stickers after more than 2,000 parents complained the textbooks presented evolution as fact, without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life. " Erm... they are Biology textbooks, they are designed to teach science not religion. Until religion can explain why our hearts beat at x times per second or why our blood is red and not green we need science. Leave religious views to RE lessons. I would like to see stickers placed on the covers of Bibles: " This book contains material on God. God is a theory, not a fact, that requires an individuals faith to work. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered. "
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
David Wulff wrote: complained the textbooks presented evolution as fact it isn't fact, though is it? Just haven't come up with a better theory yet. I personally think it'd be great to teach other views of creation in school. It'd help to get kids to realize that there are a myriad viewpoints in the real world and what they learn in school is but the tip of the iceberg. Certainly, put it all in context who believes what, etc. but let the students make up their own mind based on available info. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
Stan Shannon wrote: The people of Cobb county Ga were acting perfectly within their constitutional rights to have any damned thing they wanted plaecd within any text book they wanted in their own school district. What about the rights of the scientists who wrote the book, a piece of copyrighted material, not to have their work compromised by people who clearly don't understand how science works? There are legally protected forums for what These People want to push; the science classroom is not one of them, and in fact is also a legally protected forum: for discussion of science. There are cases when the will of the majority of people is clearly the wrong thing. It used to be the case with segregation (and still is, I'm sure, in MANY places), and is currently the case regarding gay rights. Judges, in my view, are here to protect what is right, public will be damned.
David Kentley wrote: Judges, in my view, are here to protect what is right, public will be damned. I find that statement to be absolutely incredible and so anti-American as to be beyond belief. The entire rational for our Revolution was to free us from precisely that kind of thinking. The historic significance of the American Revolution was that it finally over turned the ability of a specific class of government sanctioned individuals to impose their moral will upon people and left the power to do just that in the hands of the people. What the hell is the difference between haing a government ran by religious authorities dictating morality and having one run by federal judges dictating moral authority? Your secularist philosophies hurl our society backwards in time 2000 years. Is that what you want?!!!! Christ almight, could you try actually thinking rather than just apeing something some fucking Marxist professor taught you. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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I don't think that the stickers themselves are unconstitutional, but the underlying motive (the teaching of religious beliefs as fact in school) either is or should be. I spend about ZERO seconds thinking about evolution on any given day. I think it's probably true -- it's certainly the best explanation currently out there -- but it just doesn't affect my daily life. The reason it does affect the lives of these religious poeple -- and the reason it bothers them enough to make this sticker -- is because it makes more sense than creationism to post-superstitious humans. Evolution disproves creationism and god says (in the bible) that he created the world -- so maybe god isn't real. That's the real issue, and no stickers are going to fix it.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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There are plenty of people who believe both in evolution and God. They aren't mutually exclusive. The theory, as I understand it, is that evolution is possibly the method by which God created/creates life, or even that evolution was put in place by God. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
brianwelsch wrote: Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. You clearly don't understand what scientific theories are. Theories that stand up over time are the strongest foundation upon which all of science is built. Because of all of the challenges that are brought against it (that it has withstood), evolution is one of the most tried and true theories in all of science.
Which can still be debunked, because at the end of the day it isn't known as the truth. It is the best explanation science can give based on current data, but that does not mean it is 100% fact. That's why people don't go around calling it the "Fact of Evolution". ;) BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
David Wulff wrote: complained the textbooks presented evolution as fact it isn't fact, though is it? Just haven't come up with a better theory yet. I personally think it'd be great to teach other views of creation in school. It'd help to get kids to realize that there are a myriad viewpoints in the real world and what they learn in school is but the tip of the iceberg. Certainly, put it all in context who believes what, etc. but let the students make up their own mind based on available info. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the Newbrianwelsch wrote: it isn't fact, though is it? Just haven't come up with a better theory yet. But it isn't taught as fact. (At least not during my education.) It is called "The Theory of Evolution" and every biology book starts with the words "Scientists believe..." As another David says below, scientific theories are very different from my theory, say, that giraffes are all pink with five legs. You can proove me wrong. brianwelsch wrote: I personally think it'd be great to teach other views of creation in school. Do you not have Religious Education classes over there? It would not surprise me greatly if you didn't, being a nation so vast that you can spend your entire life without meeting a person of another religion, maybe even of another race. With forty-five percent of Americans believing that God created human beings in their present form about 10,000 years ago*, this whole problem was never about presenting alternative theories - it was about presenting the GOD theory as pure unadulterated fact and giving no time to the others (if they could only get away with it). * http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/default.aspx?ci=14107[^]
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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Of course it's religiously motivated, but in the end asking students to keep an open mind on the issue is not unconstitutional. There was no mention or endorsement of any specific relgion. Maybe spending money on stickers is a waste of money, but that's a different issue than calling them unconstitutional. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the Newbrianwelsch wrote: There was no mention or endorsement of any specific relgion. And yet ask any person and they will tell you exactly what the intention was and which religion they are endorsing. How is that any different from stating it in writing? Whatever happened to "In The Spirit Of The Law"?
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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brianwelsch wrote: it isn't fact, though is it? Just haven't come up with a better theory yet. But it isn't taught as fact. (At least not during my education.) It is called "The Theory of Evolution" and every biology book starts with the words "Scientists believe..." As another David says below, scientific theories are very different from my theory, say, that giraffes are all pink with five legs. You can proove me wrong. brianwelsch wrote: I personally think it'd be great to teach other views of creation in school. Do you not have Religious Education classes over there? It would not surprise me greatly if you didn't, being a nation so vast that you can spend your entire life without meeting a person of another religion, maybe even of another race. With forty-five percent of Americans believing that God created human beings in their present form about 10,000 years ago*, this whole problem was never about presenting alternative theories - it was about presenting the GOD theory as pure unadulterated fact and giving no time to the others (if they could only get away with it). * http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/default.aspx?ci=14107[^]
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
David Wulff wrote: Do you not have Religious Education classes over there? Not as part of standard curriculum, at least not 15 years ago where I went to school. Some high schools may offer such classes as an elective to satisfy social study requirements. Or religion would be touched on in classes dealing with other civilizations/cultures, perhaps even in history if appropriate. I don't recall much discussion on actual creation though outside of evolution. David Wulff wrote: But it isn't taught as fact Nor during mine, but it sounded like the pro-sticker folks were concerned that it was being taught as such. I'm not familiar with their school, so can't say they are wrong or right. David Wulff wrote: it was about presenting the GOD theory as pure unadulterated fact and giving no time to the others (if they could only get away with it). I live in the middle of the Bible Belt in the US (the county in question is about 2 hrs. away), and would be very surprised if a majority would want to do away with teaching evolution alltogether. My only real issue with this whole deal is that the stickers were found unconstitutional. That seems absurd to me. The desire for the sticker seems absurd to me also, but that it was found unconstitutional sort of leaves me dumbfounded. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New -
Mike Gaskey wrote: He believes that the president has the power to retire federal judge By definition and talking about democratic principles, isn't such an action a violation of the separation of the powers and then a first step to a presidential dictatorship?
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck Doch seh ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links
K(arl) wrote: By definition and talking about democratic principles, isn't such an action a violation of the separation of the powers and then a first step to a presidential dictatorship? Good question, thanks for asking. The situation that we have (a crisis depending upon who you listen to) is that judges are legislating, not applying the law as they are charged with doing. This is something that needs correcting as they are acting outside the context of their constituitionally granted powers. The change, from applying to creating law, has been incremental over many many years. It can't be corrected by waiting for individual judges to retire. Another approach is to impeach and try individual judges by Congress but that would tie up Congress such that not much else would get done for years (which might not be all that bad). The idea of retiring judges really does not distort the idea of seperation of judges because once that arm of the judiciary was retired and replaced it would still operate independently. The fact that judges are creating, not applying law is in fact distorting federal power. One example is the one subject "you" hear constantly, that of seperation of state and church. There is absolutely no question what so ever that the idea was that there be no state sactioned religion (as with: the Church of England, Iran and Islam) not that no references to God exist in public life. Our coinage for example has always had, "in God we trust" stamped on it. Secularists and liberal judges have preverted the seperation concept. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
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I think the judge should be removed. Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. Hell, I think they should put a sticker on every text book that says, "This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." It's just a sound advice. Unconstitutional, indeed. Dumb ass. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the Newbrianwelsch wrote: I think the judge should be removed. Acknowledging evolution as anything but a theory is covering up the truth. Hell, I think they should put a sticker on every text book that says, "This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." It's just a sound advice. Unconstitutional, indeed. Dumb ass. The sticker does not simply say evolution is a theory. It says evolution is "not a fact". In the opinion of the overwhelming majority of scientists in the relevant fields, evolution is both a theory and a fact --- a fact attested to by an overwhelming body of evidence. Those putting on the sticker are thus promoting ignorance of accepted scientific facts for religious reasons. Material should indeed be "approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." If the creationists had done that, we wouldn't need to be having this debate. John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
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Which can still be debunked, because at the end of the day it isn't known as the truth. It is the best explanation science can give based on current data, but that does not mean it is 100% fact. That's why people don't go around calling it the "Fact of Evolution". ;) BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the Newbrianwelsch wrote: That's why people don't go around calling it the "Fact of Evolution". "People" may not, but scientists do. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html[^] John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
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David Kentley wrote: Judges, in my view, are here to protect what is right, public will be damned. I find that statement to be absolutely incredible and so anti-American as to be beyond belief. The entire rational for our Revolution was to free us from precisely that kind of thinking. The historic significance of the American Revolution was that it finally over turned the ability of a specific class of government sanctioned individuals to impose their moral will upon people and left the power to do just that in the hands of the people. What the hell is the difference between haing a government ran by religious authorities dictating morality and having one run by federal judges dictating moral authority? Your secularist philosophies hurl our society backwards in time 2000 years. Is that what you want?!!!! Christ almight, could you try actually thinking rather than just apeing something some fucking Marxist professor taught you. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: David Kentley wrote: Judges, in my view, are here to protect what is right, public will be damned. I find that statement to be absolutely incredible and so anti-American as to be beyond belief. If I had written "Judges are here to protect the law" would it make you feel better? They also make sure the laws that are made are constitutional, all of which is why I say they are here to protect what is right. The laws are written by elected officials, the judges are appointed by those officials or in many cases elected directly. It's still ultimately the will of the people at work. However, when it comes to specific issues like this, it is the judge's duty to follow what they believe is right and lawful. Do you not understand the ingenious checks and balances system this country employs? It sounds like you want to strip the judicial branch of its power by giving the executive branch iron fisted control over it. Presidents and senators bow to the will of the masses (or lobbyists); judges impose the will of the law, and the constitution, and are required to ignore the will of the masses, or else they are not doing their job. You talk about hurling society back in time, but that is exactly what would happen if fanatics, even large groups of fanatics, are allowed to run amok and impose superstition on our science classes. If these people's faith is so flimsy that observation of the real world around them theatens it, it's time for them to get a new faith, not stick their heads and the heads of their children in the sand. The judge in this case did absolutely the right thing according to the law, and proves once again that this country's system usually works. "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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K(arl) wrote: By definition and talking about democratic principles, isn't such an action a violation of the separation of the powers and then a first step to a presidential dictatorship? Good question, thanks for asking. The situation that we have (a crisis depending upon who you listen to) is that judges are legislating, not applying the law as they are charged with doing. This is something that needs correcting as they are acting outside the context of their constituitionally granted powers. The change, from applying to creating law, has been incremental over many many years. It can't be corrected by waiting for individual judges to retire. Another approach is to impeach and try individual judges by Congress but that would tie up Congress such that not much else would get done for years (which might not be all that bad). The idea of retiring judges really does not distort the idea of seperation of judges because once that arm of the judiciary was retired and replaced it would still operate independently. The fact that judges are creating, not applying law is in fact distorting federal power. One example is the one subject "you" hear constantly, that of seperation of state and church. There is absolutely no question what so ever that the idea was that there be no state sactioned religion (as with: the Church of England, Iran and Islam) not that no references to God exist in public life. Our coinage for example has always had, "in God we trust" stamped on it. Secularists and liberal judges have preverted the seperation concept. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
Mike Gaskey wrote: The situation that we have (a crisis depending upon who you listen to) is that judges are legislating, not applying the law as they are charged with doing. AFAIK, judges can create jurisprudence when no law can't be applied. Jurisprudence decisions have force of law. Isn't it the task of the Supreme Court to decide if their judgment respects the constitution or not? Anyway, even if I agree there should be "something" to control Judges' decisions, it should not be done by another branch, legislative or executive.
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck Doch seh ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links
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brianwelsch wrote: That's why people don't go around calling it the "Fact of Evolution". "People" may not, but scientists do. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html[^] John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
To me a fact is absolute truth. This obviously differs from the scientific definition. I do not doubt evolution as such, but I have a difficult time believing we know for fact how life was created. If there is a good explanation that I haven't seen, I'd be happy to read it. BW
"Get up and open your eyes. Don't let yourself ever fall down.
Get through it and learn how to fly. I know you will find a way...
Today"
-Days of the New