Microsoft -ARRRGGGHHHH
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If you're gonna be a Windows developer for long, i think you need to come to grips with the fact that Microsoft likes to fuck with developers. That's all there is to it. Accept it, and you can code happily, if maybe not productively. Deny it, and you'll spend weeks trying to figure out why a given tool or API suddenly pukes on you. I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Don't ever let Microsoft code think you rely on it. Is a major portion of your app built around the ListView control? Build in a 3rd-party control, somewhere unimportant, just to make the ListView think it has to work for it's place. Are you utterly lost without Visual Studio? Fire up a good text editor every few hours, and smile real big when you do... then look back at VS and sigh, deeply. Keep 'em all jealous, and they'll behave themselves... mostly*****. But woe betide you, should they ever guess how ruined you would be if they broke... *the big exception here are add-ons. Don't like part of Explorer? Would you like to take advantage of it's wonderfully flexible object model to make some changes? Well, you better also like frequent crashes, that's all i can say. Better replace the whole shell while you're in there...
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
It's those very developer tools that have kept me using Windows. In all honesty I would be using OS X now were it not for VS.NET. That's it, VS.NET is the only thing tying me to Windows. I think Microsoft is damn fine to developers. Sure they've done some odd things but, shudder, at least our IDE isn't a Java app. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
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It's those very developer tools that have kept me using Windows. In all honesty I would be using OS X now were it not for VS.NET. That's it, VS.NET is the only thing tying me to Windows. I think Microsoft is damn fine to developers. Sure they've done some odd things but, shudder, at least our IDE isn't a Java app. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
I do not disagree. I use Visual Studio exclusively, and I avoid Java like I avoid decaffeinated coffee and light cigarettes. :-) MS development tools are definitely the best thing going. But it's still pointless, and stupid, and just bad architecture to arbitrarily intimately link all this stuff to Internet Explorer. Robert
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It's those very developer tools that have kept me using Windows. In all honesty I would be using OS X now were it not for VS.NET. That's it, VS.NET is the only thing tying me to Windows. I think Microsoft is damn fine to developers. Sure they've done some odd things but, shudder, at least our IDE isn't a Java app. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
Paul Watson wrote: I think Microsoft is damn fine to developers. Sure they've done some odd things but, shudder, at least our IDE isn't a Java app. How long before it's a .NET app? :) I think VS.NET is a definite improvement over VS6. And when the day comes that a non-buggy version of VS2k5 is released, i will probably enjoy using it (i'm serious! the beta does more things right than any VS i've used before, by far. when it works...). But i still have this nagging suspicion that, if i wasn't being babied by Intellisense (or i could get it elsewhere), i'd have ditched VS for a text editor and makefile system long ago, and would be more productive for it. It's so *frustrating* at times! I have all these fantastic programs, but they all have some problem. If i could only take bits and pieces of each and somehow mash them all together into a magical code gumbo...
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
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Paul Watson wrote: I think Microsoft is damn fine to developers. Sure they've done some odd things but, shudder, at least our IDE isn't a Java app. How long before it's a .NET app? :) I think VS.NET is a definite improvement over VS6. And when the day comes that a non-buggy version of VS2k5 is released, i will probably enjoy using it (i'm serious! the beta does more things right than any VS i've used before, by far. when it works...). But i still have this nagging suspicion that, if i wasn't being babied by Intellisense (or i could get it elsewhere), i'd have ditched VS for a text editor and makefile system long ago, and would be more productive for it. It's so *frustrating* at times! I have all these fantastic programs, but they all have some problem. If i could only take bits and pieces of each and somehow mash them all together into a magical code gumbo...
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
Shog9 wrote: It's so *frustrating* at times! I have all these fantastic programs, but they all have some problem. If i could only take bits and pieces of each and somehow mash them all together into a magical code gumbo... You mean Shog.IDE? I'd get frustrated with it and want to write Watson.IDE which would be a balls-up for Stan who'd want Stan.IDE With Gun Rack Edition. You would despise the IDE I'd love. Please don't get me wrong. VS.NET or VS6 or VS2025 are not perfect. They are just a good deal better than the alternative IDEs. I don't think I could write a better IDE for everyone even with the resources of MS at my disposal. The thing is I am sure the hard working boys and girls who designed and built VS.NET thought long and hard about every dialog, pane and button. And then they had to start compromising. They have to please the marketeers ("oooh, gradients"), the die-managed-code-die crowd, the W3C-tree-huggers (like me) and the drag-drop-wizardize lot. I'll bet half the time a coder like us bitches about a bit of VS.NET some poor MS dev downs a zolax and mutters "They made me put that in". I know you know this and I get your drift. Maybe we need a super-decoupled-yet-still-seamless IDE*. I think they need to focus more on the text-editor and less on the bits that surround it, but that doesn't make for great slogans so that Wizard is still going in. Like you said, magical. * It would take two days to pick the right install options but hell it'd be super-fly once up. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
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Shog9 wrote: It's so *frustrating* at times! I have all these fantastic programs, but they all have some problem. If i could only take bits and pieces of each and somehow mash them all together into a magical code gumbo... You mean Shog.IDE? I'd get frustrated with it and want to write Watson.IDE which would be a balls-up for Stan who'd want Stan.IDE With Gun Rack Edition. You would despise the IDE I'd love. Please don't get me wrong. VS.NET or VS6 or VS2025 are not perfect. They are just a good deal better than the alternative IDEs. I don't think I could write a better IDE for everyone even with the resources of MS at my disposal. The thing is I am sure the hard working boys and girls who designed and built VS.NET thought long and hard about every dialog, pane and button. And then they had to start compromising. They have to please the marketeers ("oooh, gradients"), the die-managed-code-die crowd, the W3C-tree-huggers (like me) and the drag-drop-wizardize lot. I'll bet half the time a coder like us bitches about a bit of VS.NET some poor MS dev downs a zolax and mutters "They made me put that in". I know you know this and I get your drift. Maybe we need a super-decoupled-yet-still-seamless IDE*. I think they need to focus more on the text-editor and less on the bits that surround it, but that doesn't make for great slogans so that Wizard is still going in. Like you said, magical. * It would take two days to pick the right install options but hell it'd be super-fly once up. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
Paul Watson wrote: * It would take two days to pick the right install options but hell it'd be super-fly once up. Ever build the Linux kernel from sources? Well, the first step is to configure the build options, and lemme tell you, you are eyeball-deep in options. I think the MS-Word options dialog is ridiculous, but it's got nothing on the kernel compilation options. Wow. Don't know that it's relevant, but your comment brought it to mind...
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
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It's those very developer tools that have kept me using Windows. In all honesty I would be using OS X now were it not for VS.NET. That's it, VS.NET is the only thing tying me to Windows. I think Microsoft is damn fine to developers. Sure they've done some odd things but, shudder, at least our IDE isn't a Java app. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
I totally agree. That's one thing MS has always done right IMO -- provide developers with tools. Apple finally caught on with the developer tools for Mac OSX though (much better than the old stuff like the standalone MPW - unless you're a command line buff). Maybe one day, they'll even have the kind of extensive documentation like MSDN that can integrate with the tools (I'm too lazy to use PDFs and their website for everything). I won't hold my breath, but hey ya never know. Jeremy Falcon
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I generally support Microsoft, and anyone that thinks that any sort of majority out there will ever actually prefer Linux to Windows needs to get from behind that Linux box they are so rabidly obsessed with and get out of the house at least long enough to get their head examined. But some things about MS really piss me off sometimes. My VS NET debugger stopped working - and I am not talking about ASP or Web Services, Im talking it would not start the debugger for a friggin Win32 Hello World application. So I did a repair on VS NET. Waste of 2 hours. I completely uninstalled VS NET and the framework and reimnstalled it. More wasted hours. I searched MSDN, web sites. For naught. I ran Windows repair. Nothing. I was almost to the point of thinking I was going to have to do a Windows complete reinstall. Oh man, what a nightmare! Having to prepare to rebuild all my MSDE/SQL Server data6bases, reinstall all my development tools... Finally, as a last attempt before the unthinkable I decided to run repair in IE. Did nothing so I decided to completely uninstall IE6. Then I reinstalled it. Lo and behold, my debugger now works (although the NET startup page now throws script errors so something is still out of wack). Now why in the world should IE6 have anything to do with stepping through a pure Win32 simple Hello World application in debug mode? Does MS not understand anything about rationalization, componentization, decoupling??? Sure they do! But they have a policy now that they are going to incorporate IE intimately into all their applications and platforms, from the OS itself to MS Office to every part of NET. For no good reason except in a few cases, it's got this raggedy-ass piece of shit called Internet Explorer intertwined into every aspect. Why? Because Bill Gates is a friggin' megalomaniac now and is obsessed with the fact that MS is not the only or for that mattrer even a major player in the whole scheme of the Internet. So now my development platform, and my applications are intimately connected to this fragile piece of crap IE that requires constants patches and updates, any or all of which are authored in such a shitty fashion that they may cause any or all of my software - which should have no connection to IE - to stop working at any given time. Arrrggggghhhhhh!!!!! Man those guys piss me off sometimes. Robert:mad::mad::mad:
If MS had it their way you'd need IE to take a piss. :) Jeremy Falcon
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It's those very developer tools that have kept me using Windows. In all honesty I would be using OS X now were it not for VS.NET. That's it, VS.NET is the only thing tying me to Windows. I think Microsoft is damn fine to developers. Sure they've done some odd things but, shudder, at least our IDE isn't a Java app. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
vs.net is the only thing keeping me from solely using gentoo linux (I have it installed and configured) -Steven Hicks
CPA
CodeProjectAddict
Actual Linux Penguins were harmed in the creation of this message.
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If MS had it their way you'd need IE to take a piss. :) Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: If MS had it their way you'd need IE to take a piss. Yeah, no kidding! It's pissed me off plenty! LOL Again, I totally agree, I would not dream of developing on any platform besides VS. But I still have two major problems with NET: One - this whole business of being so dependent on IE is just scary. I mean, I don't download a bunch of crap off the ineternet. I download service packs and SDKs and patches from MS. And one of the IE updates totally screwed my VS.NET IDE installation. Now, as far as I checked, my compiled NET apps were not affected. But if it can screw my IDE setup, the possibility always exists that some IE update will totally f*** my compiled apps. What happens when a client experiences this problem? It is a developer's nightmare!!!! Distributed apps being screwed by a MS patch!!! Nobody knows what these things are, a lot of times you cannot uninstall them again without breaking something, and even if you could, how would you troubleshoot this for a client without being on their site? VS6 certainly has it's problems, but none of my VS6 code could be broken by IE because the only thing I use that is part of IE is the ShellBrowser, and I just use the basic functions supported by all versions of the shell DLL ditributed as part of IE4 and higher. Two: Users are not developers. They do not necessarily have the latest OS, a fast internet connection, or believe it or not, an internet connection at all! I work in the healthcare sector. A lot of these guys are running Win98 still. A lot do not have internet connections on most of their machines because health information is very sensitive, and a typical doctor's office does not have a sys admin, does not have a firewall, and does not want to risk having their system attacked or hacked because one of the medical assistants surfs the web on their lunch break. A lot of these guys are not running systems that will have the Framework installed. With VB if I did not have to worry about MDAC the runtime install was less than 2 megs. 20+ megs just to install the framework is a big difference. From my perspective, the only practical way to release software in NET at this time is by media. If I want to do it by Internet download, I stick to VS6 still, because 30 meg downloads just don't cut it ... Robert
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It's those very developer tools that have kept me using Windows. In all honesty I would be using OS X now were it not for VS.NET. That's it, VS.NET is the only thing tying me to Windows. I think Microsoft is damn fine to developers. Sure they've done some odd things but, shudder, at least our IDE isn't a Java app. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
Yep. If there was anything even remotely close to VS.NET for Linux, then MS would be in trouble. At the moment MS dev tools bomb anything Linux has to offer into the Stone Age. I've dabbled with Linux development and it is an incredibly frustrating and unproductive experience (printf debug messages anyone?) - but as soon as there is a decent and reliable integrated development environment/debugger I'll be back. You have to be able to rely on youtr development tools - I have had the odd crash in the past with VS 2003 but on the whole, it IS incredibly reliable and easy to use (IE6 dependencies aside!).
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I generally support Microsoft, and anyone that thinks that any sort of majority out there will ever actually prefer Linux to Windows needs to get from behind that Linux box they are so rabidly obsessed with and get out of the house at least long enough to get their head examined. But some things about MS really piss me off sometimes. My VS NET debugger stopped working - and I am not talking about ASP or Web Services, Im talking it would not start the debugger for a friggin Win32 Hello World application. So I did a repair on VS NET. Waste of 2 hours. I completely uninstalled VS NET and the framework and reimnstalled it. More wasted hours. I searched MSDN, web sites. For naught. I ran Windows repair. Nothing. I was almost to the point of thinking I was going to have to do a Windows complete reinstall. Oh man, what a nightmare! Having to prepare to rebuild all my MSDE/SQL Server data6bases, reinstall all my development tools... Finally, as a last attempt before the unthinkable I decided to run repair in IE. Did nothing so I decided to completely uninstall IE6. Then I reinstalled it. Lo and behold, my debugger now works (although the NET startup page now throws script errors so something is still out of wack). Now why in the world should IE6 have anything to do with stepping through a pure Win32 simple Hello World application in debug mode? Does MS not understand anything about rationalization, componentization, decoupling??? Sure they do! But they have a policy now that they are going to incorporate IE intimately into all their applications and platforms, from the OS itself to MS Office to every part of NET. For no good reason except in a few cases, it's got this raggedy-ass piece of shit called Internet Explorer intertwined into every aspect. Why? Because Bill Gates is a friggin' megalomaniac now and is obsessed with the fact that MS is not the only or for that mattrer even a major player in the whole scheme of the Internet. So now my development platform, and my applications are intimately connected to this fragile piece of crap IE that requires constants patches and updates, any or all of which are authored in such a shitty fashion that they may cause any or all of my software - which should have no connection to IE - to stop working at any given time. Arrrggggghhhhhh!!!!! Man those guys piss me off sometimes. Robert:mad::mad::mad:
If it makes you feel any better, last week I've searched tree days finding why my debugger (and release) failed for some ASP.NET apps. I completely uninstalled VS and .NET and IIS and re-installed them. I openend up the app and within 3 minutes I found out that it was a // before a --> in my html page making the tags incorrect. This stuff should have been detected by the compiler, but noooooo. :-). Ah well, such is life. (go run a marathon, swim the canal and jump around, then calmly try to sit back at your desk) "If I don't see you in this world, I'll see you in the next one... and don't be late." ~ Jimi Hendrix
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I generally support Microsoft, and anyone that thinks that any sort of majority out there will ever actually prefer Linux to Windows needs to get from behind that Linux box they are so rabidly obsessed with and get out of the house at least long enough to get their head examined. But some things about MS really piss me off sometimes. My VS NET debugger stopped working - and I am not talking about ASP or Web Services, Im talking it would not start the debugger for a friggin Win32 Hello World application. So I did a repair on VS NET. Waste of 2 hours. I completely uninstalled VS NET and the framework and reimnstalled it. More wasted hours. I searched MSDN, web sites. For naught. I ran Windows repair. Nothing. I was almost to the point of thinking I was going to have to do a Windows complete reinstall. Oh man, what a nightmare! Having to prepare to rebuild all my MSDE/SQL Server data6bases, reinstall all my development tools... Finally, as a last attempt before the unthinkable I decided to run repair in IE. Did nothing so I decided to completely uninstall IE6. Then I reinstalled it. Lo and behold, my debugger now works (although the NET startup page now throws script errors so something is still out of wack). Now why in the world should IE6 have anything to do with stepping through a pure Win32 simple Hello World application in debug mode? Does MS not understand anything about rationalization, componentization, decoupling??? Sure they do! But they have a policy now that they are going to incorporate IE intimately into all their applications and platforms, from the OS itself to MS Office to every part of NET. For no good reason except in a few cases, it's got this raggedy-ass piece of shit called Internet Explorer intertwined into every aspect. Why? Because Bill Gates is a friggin' megalomaniac now and is obsessed with the fact that MS is not the only or for that mattrer even a major player in the whole scheme of the Internet. So now my development platform, and my applications are intimately connected to this fragile piece of crap IE that requires constants patches and updates, any or all of which are authored in such a shitty fashion that they may cause any or all of my software - which should have no connection to IE - to stop working at any given time. Arrrggggghhhhhh!!!!! Man those guys piss me off sometimes. Robert:mad::mad::mad:
What version of Windows was this? Back in the good old days of Windows 2000, I used to have an interesting debugging / Internet Explorer issue. Using VC6, if I had my C++ code stopped at a breakpoint and then went to a web-page by typing the http address into the Start->Run box, IE would start but the page wouldn't be displayed. If I hit F5 to continue my code, then IE would load the page. I never did get to the bottom of the problem but XP doesn't have the same issue. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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I do not disagree. I use Visual Studio exclusively, and I avoid Java like I avoid decaffeinated coffee and light cigarettes. :-) MS development tools are definitely the best thing going. But it's still pointless, and stupid, and just bad architecture to arbitrarily intimately link all this stuff to Internet Explorer. Robert
I think you hit upon the reason why in that it's a strategically driven embed rather than a good-product/help-user driven embed. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "
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What version of Windows was this? Back in the good old days of Windows 2000, I used to have an interesting debugging / Internet Explorer issue. Using VC6, if I had my C++ code stopped at a breakpoint and then went to a web-page by typing the http address into the Start->Run box, IE would start but the page wouldn't be displayed. If I hit F5 to continue my code, then IE would load the page. I never did get to the bottom of the problem but XP doesn't have the same issue. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Odd, i get something similar on XP now and again. I'll be in the debugger, and try to open up an explorer window (not IE, just explorer)... nada. I hit run, and everything wakes up. I've been chalking it down to an explorer resource being used somewhere in my app, and unluckily behing held when all threads are suspended by the debugger... but who knows? I use the MSHTML control in my app, so maybe there's a connection... :suss:
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...