Sad
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Shog9 wrote: live in Colorado. Beautiful state Isn't Colorado owned by Texas :) Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
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This is just sad. Clearly the solution is to dramatically cut down the immigration rate, rather than letting themselves be run out of their own country. AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged. ... This small nation is a magnet for immigrants, but statistics suggest there is a quickening flight of the white middle class. Dutch people pulling up roots said they felt a general pessimism about their small and crowded country and about the social tensions that had grown along with the waves of newcomers, most of them Muslims."The Dutch are living in a kind of pressure cooker atmosphere," Mr. Hiltemann said. There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and bent on confrontation. Those leaving have been mostly lured by large English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they say they hope to feel less constricted. In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags. But the killing of the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Muslims, seems to have been a catalyst. "Our Web site got 13,000 hits in the weeks after the van Gogh killing," said Frans Buysse, who runs an agency that handles paperwork for departing Dutch. "That's four times the normal rate." Mr. van Gogh's killing is the only one the police have attributed to an Islamic militant, but since then they have reported finding death lists by local Islamic militants with the names of six prominent politicians. The effects still reverberate. In a recent opinion poll, 35 percent of the native Dutch questioned had negative views about Islam. Link[^] ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
Yeah that is sad, but I am glad my grandparents/parents left that country for Canada in the 50's. Even then they felt the country was too crowded and that a better future lay elsewhere. But isn't that true of all migrants?
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:shrug: If you throw a party, you can shut the door. Or you can deal with the results of random people showing up and getting trashed, after they've already pissed on the pool table and broken your lamp. The later tends to be a lot more fun at first, but sooner or later it'll attract the scum, and all your friends will leave, or lock themselves in the attic with the remains of the good beer. This is hardly unique to Holland. Like the city you're living in? Better hope that the people responsible for the "best place to live" lists don't. Like your little place out in the country, with only waste land as far as the eye can see, and easy access to the highway for when you need to head into town? Better keep a sharp eye out for Del Webb. I live in Colorado. Beautiful state. And i'm not the only one who thinks so - nearly any moderatly large city here is suffering from the pains of rapid growth. I had an easier time navigating through Los Angeles than i do driving in Colorado Springs. The difference with Holland is that they have a nice convenient immigrant minority to blame their problems on. Heh. I'm sorry, but it's a bit late to be worrying about it now. Ask Florida how they like Cubans...
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
Shog9 wrote: This is hardly unique to Holland. Like the city you're living in? Better hope that the people responsible for the "best place to live" lists don't. Sorry, but many Muslims have different ideas about they way society should be constrained. Even if the 99% are perfectly good people, a radical 1% can cause lots of problems. Some of them think it is perfectly justifiable to kill someone if they "blaspheme" the Koran (which is why VanGogh was murdered). Here in the West, you're perfectly within your freedom of speech rights to insult any religion, but that's not the way some people see it. I don't see the population migrations to cities to be comparible to immigration which includes people of very different views on whats acceptable within their society. Shog9 wrote: The difference with Holland is that they have a nice convenient immigrant minority to blame their problems on. Heh. I'm sorry, but it's a bit late to be worrying about it now. Ask Florida how they like Cubans... I think you meant to write, "The difference with Holland is that there is an immigrant minority which is causing problems." This talk about "they're blaming their problems on..." is, unfortunately, placing them in a difficult position: if they reduce immigration you'll accuse them of shifting the blame to the immigrant population (tantamount to racism), and if they don't reduce immigration, they'll wind up in worse trouble than they are currently in. Your view blames the victims and prevents them from doing anything about it unless they are willing to be villified with accusations of racism. Shog9 wrote: I'm sorry, but it's a bit late to be worrying about it now. That statement doesn't make logical sense. For one thing, they can reduce their immigration rates. Secondly, if it's already too late "to worry about this situation", then at least it can serve as a warning to other countries. Take your pick: is it too late (and countries should let this be a warning), or is there something that can be done about it (immigration reform)? Shog9 wrote: You can't have it both ways. I really don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that you either allow immigrants and be overwhelmed by them or no immigrants at all? That there is no middle ground between the two? Your analogy of an open-door party is hardly applicable. In open-door parties, anyone can walk in. In countries, there
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Shog9 wrote: This is hardly unique to Holland. Like the city you're living in? Better hope that the people responsible for the "best place to live" lists don't. Sorry, but many Muslims have different ideas about they way society should be constrained. Even if the 99% are perfectly good people, a radical 1% can cause lots of problems. Some of them think it is perfectly justifiable to kill someone if they "blaspheme" the Koran (which is why VanGogh was murdered). Here in the West, you're perfectly within your freedom of speech rights to insult any religion, but that's not the way some people see it. I don't see the population migrations to cities to be comparible to immigration which includes people of very different views on whats acceptable within their society. Shog9 wrote: The difference with Holland is that they have a nice convenient immigrant minority to blame their problems on. Heh. I'm sorry, but it's a bit late to be worrying about it now. Ask Florida how they like Cubans... I think you meant to write, "The difference with Holland is that there is an immigrant minority which is causing problems." This talk about "they're blaming their problems on..." is, unfortunately, placing them in a difficult position: if they reduce immigration you'll accuse them of shifting the blame to the immigrant population (tantamount to racism), and if they don't reduce immigration, they'll wind up in worse trouble than they are currently in. Your view blames the victims and prevents them from doing anything about it unless they are willing to be villified with accusations of racism. Shog9 wrote: I'm sorry, but it's a bit late to be worrying about it now. That statement doesn't make logical sense. For one thing, they can reduce their immigration rates. Secondly, if it's already too late "to worry about this situation", then at least it can serve as a warning to other countries. Take your pick: is it too late (and countries should let this be a warning), or is there something that can be done about it (immigration reform)? Shog9 wrote: You can't have it both ways. I really don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that you either allow immigrants and be overwhelmed by them or no immigrants at all? That there is no middle ground between the two? Your analogy of an open-door party is hardly applicable. In open-door parties, anyone can walk in. In countries, there
Brit wrote: Your view blames the victims and prevents them from doing anything about it unless they are willing to be villified with accusations of racism. I said nothing about racism. Most of the article seemed to be about problems caused by an increase in population, and the loss of peace and greenspace that such an increase brings. In this case the origin of the population increase is immigration from (primarily Muslim) countries, so they're having all the cultural clashes that come from an infusion of relatively backwards, intolerant people... but even without this, it sounds like people would be leaving, based on the decreasing quality of life that crowding brings. Holland always sounded like a nice place to me, i can't really blame anyone for wanting to move there - if the natives are suffering now because of this, well, it *is* there own fault for letting so many in... Brit wrote: In open-door parties, anyone can walk in. In countries, there are immigration offices. So, maybe we can blame the immigration office, then. Since they obviously haven't been acting in the best interests of the existing citizens. Letting in militants and malcontents and unemployables and all. Though i suppose the immigration office might not necessarily be a sovereign entity... but, well, that might eventually lay the blame back on the citizens.
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
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It's also, IMO, bizarre. Racism is bad and all, but so is voluntarily abandoning the lands you are indiginous to just because some one else wants to live there. Most indiginous people put up some kind of a fight. Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal. If it were me, I'd be joining the nearest "hate" group rather than just turning tail and running away, if I truly felt those were my only two options. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal Holland != Europe Which genocide are you talking about? I know of the one that happened in the 1940s - but that was a while ago. That happened in one country: Germany != Europe
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Stan Shannon wrote: Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal Holland != Europe Which genocide are you talking about? I know of the one that happened in the 1940s - but that was a while ago. That happened in one country: Germany != Europe
You must be new here. Stan doesn't care about the fine details. :) -- My name in Katakana is ヨルゲン. My name in German is Jörgen. My name in Mandarin/Kanji is 乔尔根 西格瓦德森. I blog too now[^]
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It's also, IMO, bizarre. Racism is bad and all, but so is voluntarily abandoning the lands you are indiginous to just because some one else wants to live there. Most indiginous people put up some kind of a fight. Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal. If it were me, I'd be joining the nearest "hate" group rather than just turning tail and running away, if I truly felt those were my only two options. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: If it were me, I'd be joining the nearest "hate" group rather than just turning tail and running away, if I truly felt those were my only two options. Join your local chapter of the Anti-Jew-Black-Muslim Enforcement League today! Enjoy bombing public Jew-Black-Muslim restaurants with plenty of women and children to make the front page - it's good for the cause! Join your brothers and sisters in righteous combat against the infidels and invaders of our Homeland! Remember - only you can make the difference! Only you can save our traditions and ideology! Only you can prove with the blood of our enemies that WE ARE IN THE RIGHT!!! AJBMEL - for a better tomorrow... today! Whew! It sure is a good thing to know who the good guys and the bad guys in the world are!
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Stan Shannon wrote: If it were me, I'd be joining the nearest "hate" group rather than just turning tail and running away, if I truly felt those were my only two options. Join your local chapter of the Anti-Jew-Black-Muslim Enforcement League today! Enjoy bombing public Jew-Black-Muslim restaurants with plenty of women and children to make the front page - it's good for the cause! Join your brothers and sisters in righteous combat against the infidels and invaders of our Homeland! Remember - only you can make the difference! Only you can save our traditions and ideology! Only you can prove with the blood of our enemies that WE ARE IN THE RIGHT!!! AJBMEL - for a better tomorrow... today! Whew! It sure is a good thing to know who the good guys and the bad guys in the world are!
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Stan Shannon wrote: Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal Holland != Europe Which genocide are you talking about? I know of the one that happened in the 1940s - but that was a while ago. That happened in one country: Germany != Europe
Dan Bennett wrote: Holland != Europe <NeedlessPedantry> I believe the original post was about the whole of The Netherlands, not just the largest province (well two provinces Noord Holland and Zuid Holland) </NeedlessPedantry>
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It's also, IMO, bizarre. Racism is bad and all, but so is voluntarily abandoning the lands you are indiginous to just because some one else wants to live there. Most indiginous people put up some kind of a fight. Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal. If it were me, I'd be joining the nearest "hate" group rather than just turning tail and running away, if I truly felt those were my only two options. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
I think the muslims aren't the only problem. They live there with 400-500 people per 1 km². That's a lot. That's, too much. Yeah, sure NY eg. has more, but you can live somewhere else without leaving your country. In the Netherlands you can't. Europe, as you state, is too crowded and that's a very big problem. "If I don't see you in this world, I'll see you in the next one... and don't be late." ~ Jimi Hendrix
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You must be new here. Stan doesn't care about the fine details. :) -- My name in Katakana is ヨルゲン. My name in German is Jörgen. My name in Mandarin/Kanji is 乔尔根 西格瓦德森. I blog too now[^]
I know his crude labelling well :) Occaisonally I like to point out the stupidty of what he is saying - which probably makes me a coummunist plotting the destruction of the good old US of A (in his eyes).
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Dan Bennett wrote: Holland != Europe <NeedlessPedantry> I believe the original post was about the whole of The Netherlands, not just the largest province (well two provinces Noord Holland and Zuid Holland) </NeedlessPedantry>
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You have been talking too much with 'brabanders" (inhabitants of the province Braband) They officially hate anyone who calls The Netherlands Holland :P:):) Rutger
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You have been talking too much with 'brabanders" (inhabitants of the province Braband) They officially hate anyone who calls The Netherlands Holland :P:):) Rutger
I guess there are a few Friesians who also fall into that category too. I also spotted the Friesian flag in this[^] badge promoting independence for various countries and regions
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You have been talking too much with 'brabanders" (inhabitants of the province Braband) They officially hate anyone who calls The Netherlands Holland :P:):) Rutger
Rutger Ellen wrote: They officially hate anyone who calls The Netherlands Holland I can see their point. I have been insulted many times (not intentionally, but I find it insulting nonetheless) by people who ask me about England. I'm not English. I don't live in England. I even had a tourist ask me in the street a question about where he could find a "Traditional English..." something-or-other. Perhaps if he'd travel 100km south he might have found what he was looking for. I took a Dutch language course once and one of the lessons was on nationality and countries. It said about Scots and Welsh not to worry about Dutch people calling them English as it was the word they used for the whole island. Well, no! QUITE FRANKLY I DON'T FIND THAT ACCEPTABLE - IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN CULTURAL DISENFANCHISEMENT! There are words existing in the Dutch language that for British (Brits) and Britain (Brittannië). One of the first sentences I had to learn in Dutch was "Ik ben schots" to ensure that it is perfectly clear who I am. I feel that I am being denied my existance and my identity. If you don't understand what I mean ask a Dutch person how they would feel if someone said "You're German", or a Canadian if someone says "Your from the U.S." Excuse my little rant - I have to get that out occasionally - Normal service shall now be resumed....
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This is just sad. Clearly the solution is to dramatically cut down the immigration rate, rather than letting themselves be run out of their own country. AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged. ... This small nation is a magnet for immigrants, but statistics suggest there is a quickening flight of the white middle class. Dutch people pulling up roots said they felt a general pessimism about their small and crowded country and about the social tensions that had grown along with the waves of newcomers, most of them Muslims."The Dutch are living in a kind of pressure cooker atmosphere," Mr. Hiltemann said. There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and bent on confrontation. Those leaving have been mostly lured by large English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they say they hope to feel less constricted. In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags. But the killing of the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Muslims, seems to have been a catalyst. "Our Web site got 13,000 hits in the weeks after the van Gogh killing," said Frans Buysse, who runs an agency that handles paperwork for departing Dutch. "That's four times the normal rate." Mr. van Gogh's killing is the only one the police have attributed to an Islamic militant, but since then they have reported finding death lists by local Islamic militants with the names of six prominent politicians. The effects still reverberate. In a recent opinion poll, 35 percent of the native Dutch questioned had negative views about Islam. Link[^] ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
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It's also, IMO, bizarre. Racism is bad and all, but so is voluntarily abandoning the lands you are indiginous to just because some one else wants to live there. Most indiginous people put up some kind of a fight. Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal. If it were me, I'd be joining the nearest "hate" group rather than just turning tail and running away, if I truly felt those were my only two options. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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It's also, IMO, bizarre. Racism is bad and all, but so is voluntarily abandoning the lands you are indiginous to just because some one else wants to live there. Most indiginous people put up some kind of a fight. Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal. If it were me, I'd be joining the nearest "hate" group rather than just turning tail and running away, if I truly felt those were my only two options. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: Europe seemed to go right from being genicidal to being suicidal. If it were me, I'd be joining the nearest "hate" group rather than just turning tail and running away, if I truly felt those were my only two options. Hate groups are nothing but genocidal.
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This is just sad. Clearly the solution is to dramatically cut down the immigration rate, rather than letting themselves be run out of their own country. AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged. ... This small nation is a magnet for immigrants, but statistics suggest there is a quickening flight of the white middle class. Dutch people pulling up roots said they felt a general pessimism about their small and crowded country and about the social tensions that had grown along with the waves of newcomers, most of them Muslims."The Dutch are living in a kind of pressure cooker atmosphere," Mr. Hiltemann said. There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and bent on confrontation. Those leaving have been mostly lured by large English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they say they hope to feel less constricted. In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags. But the killing of the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Muslims, seems to have been a catalyst. "Our Web site got 13,000 hits in the weeks after the van Gogh killing," said Frans Buysse, who runs an agency that handles paperwork for departing Dutch. "That's four times the normal rate." Mr. van Gogh's killing is the only one the police have attributed to an Islamic militant, but since then they have reported finding death lists by local Islamic militants with the names of six prominent politicians. The effects still reverberate. In a recent opinion poll, 35 percent of the native Dutch questioned had negative views about Islam. Link[^] ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
Yeah there seems to be a real effort to suppress any indiginous pride in oneself, all for supporting a minority of immigrants. I think strange immigration policies, i.e. letting people into a crowded country, are to balance out the decline of birthrates, and population and the last engine of economic growth in developed nations. It is a cheat to boost GDP numbers. Immigation is always going to cause friction between people on the street mostly caused by little aggravations - language barriers, cultural misunderstandings and leftover disputes. Not that there aren't frictions between peoples of the same culture, but it does seem to make matters worse. And there is much larger "cultural distance" between Muslims from poor nations and the West. Affirmative action programs don't help either, giving immigrants an unfair advantage over native borns. I think governments should just face facts that they have a delining birthrate, lower immigration rates, and their GDP is going to drop because of it.
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Rutger Ellen wrote: They officially hate anyone who calls The Netherlands Holland I can see their point. I have been insulted many times (not intentionally, but I find it insulting nonetheless) by people who ask me about England. I'm not English. I don't live in England. I even had a tourist ask me in the street a question about where he could find a "Traditional English..." something-or-other. Perhaps if he'd travel 100km south he might have found what he was looking for. I took a Dutch language course once and one of the lessons was on nationality and countries. It said about Scots and Welsh not to worry about Dutch people calling them English as it was the word they used for the whole island. Well, no! QUITE FRANKLY I DON'T FIND THAT ACCEPTABLE - IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN CULTURAL DISENFANCHISEMENT! There are words existing in the Dutch language that for British (Brits) and Britain (Brittannië). One of the first sentences I had to learn in Dutch was "Ik ben schots" to ensure that it is perfectly clear who I am. I feel that I am being denied my existance and my identity. If you don't understand what I mean ask a Dutch person how they would feel if someone said "You're German", or a Canadian if someone says "Your from the U.S." Excuse my little rant - I have to get that out occasionally - Normal service shall now be resumed....
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I've read these message boards for several years now, but I've completely avoided posting in the Soapbox. Today, I'll make an exception because I'm Dutch (particularly from North Brabant). Firstly, I consider the terms 'The Netherlands' and 'Holland' equivalent. I've never heard of anybody feeling insulted by the term 'Hollander'. I prefer being called a 'Dutchman/Nederlander', but it's just a matter of taste. Your post was a bit of an eye-opener for me, because I'm guilty too of calling all the inhabitants of the United Kingdom English. The term 'Brits' is used only very rarely, everybody living in the UK is erroneously considered 'Engels' by us. If I write in English, I do make the distinction between the British and the English. And if somebody labelled me a German I'd politely tell him/her I live in a country just next to it and that I prefer to be called Dutch. I certainly wouldn't feel offended. A bit of cultural disenfranchisement.. so what? You English folk should lighten up. ;)
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I've read these message boards for several years now, but I've completely avoided posting in the Soapbox. Today, I'll make an exception because I'm Dutch (particularly from North Brabant). Firstly, I consider the terms 'The Netherlands' and 'Holland' equivalent. I've never heard of anybody feeling insulted by the term 'Hollander'. I prefer being called a 'Dutchman/Nederlander', but it's just a matter of taste. Your post was a bit of an eye-opener for me, because I'm guilty too of calling all the inhabitants of the United Kingdom English. The term 'Brits' is used only very rarely, everybody living in the UK is erroneously considered 'Engels' by us. If I write in English, I do make the distinction between the British and the English. And if somebody labelled me a German I'd politely tell him/her I live in a country just next to it and that I prefer to be called Dutch. I certainly wouldn't feel offended. A bit of cultural disenfranchisement.. so what? You English folk should lighten up. ;)
First, sorry that it seemed to be a rant at the Dutch. (I've calmed down now). A lot of other people do the same thing so I hope you don't take it too personally. Diederik van Houten wrote: Firstly, I consider the terms 'The Netherlands' and 'Holland' equivalent. Fair enough - I once worked with a guy who wanted Friesland to be independent and he didn't view it that way. I took situation to be somewhat similar between Scotland and England - a situation I could empathise with. Diederik van Houten wrote: And if somebody labelled me a German I'd politely tell him/her I live in a country just next to it and that I prefer to be called Dutch. I certainly wouldn't feel offended. It depends how often people tell you that. I used to work overseas alot and people from all over the world would often say "Oh! Your from England". If I corrected them, politely of course, all would be fine for a while until they started talking about England as if it was my country. In reality I've rarely gone to England - I've visited the Netherlands or Spain more frequently than England.
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