Withdrawals
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International community is pushing Syria to withdraw from Lebanon[^], and it sounds fair and good. But will the international community push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories Israel is seizing[^]?
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
K(arl) wrote: International community is pushing Syria to withdraw from Lebanon[^], and it sounds fair and good. But will the international community push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories Israel is seizing[^]? Because Israel has claims to the territory, but Syria doesn't? Because Lebanon doesn't exercise terror against Syrian civilians? Because (some? most?) Lebanese want Syria out of Lebanon, not out of existance? Don't expect withdrawals or fence removal any time soon. Until Israelis feel safe, Palestinians will suffer. Any passing day without Israeli death is one day closer to improvement in Palestinian lives.
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K(arl) wrote: International community is pushing Syria to withdraw from Lebanon[^], and it sounds fair and good. But will the international community push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories Israel is seizing[^]? Because Israel has claims to the territory, but Syria doesn't? Because Lebanon doesn't exercise terror against Syrian civilians? Because (some? most?) Lebanese want Syria out of Lebanon, not out of existance? Don't expect withdrawals or fence removal any time soon. Until Israelis feel safe, Palestinians will suffer. Any passing day without Israeli death is one day closer to improvement in Palestinian lives.
Felix Gartsman wrote: Any passing day without Israeli death is one day closer to improvement in Palestinian lives. The trouble with that is that every passing day where Israelis don't steal land from the Palestinians is one step closer to no more suicide bombers. Both sides have to back down at the same time if there's ever going to be peace.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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International community is pushing Syria to withdraw from Lebanon[^], and it sounds fair and good. But will the international community push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories Israel is seizing[^]?
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
I think we are looking at the latest invention to replace democracy: Demonstrocracy. The one with the best street show, wins the election. To me this all looks like it is elborately staged. Someone with money printed all those nice street signs - these definitely are staged event - on a large scale.
Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right. - Schopenhauer
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K(arl) wrote: But will the international community push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories Israel is seizing? Absolutely! I know this cuz' EVERYTHING the international community does is just and fair. :rolleyes: [EDIT] Score: 1.8 (4 votes). Wow! I take a shot at the ENTIRE international community (that means every single country on the planet -- including my own) for their/our pathetic record of justice and fairness over the years and I get voted down without comment. :confused: Who are these defenders of the entire world? Would they like to show me how I'm wrong? [/EDIT] "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: I get voted down without comment. Seems to me like everyone else simply put as much effort into their response as you did. For some people, the sarcastic comment is the knee-jerk reaction (you) and for others, the voting down or up is the knee-jerk reaction. I mean, you expect a thesis to justify a 1 vote for something that really required no thought on your part, but if people voted you a 5 and said nothing, no complaints, right? - T P.S. ITS JUST AN INTERNET VOTE WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE FOR THAT MATTER WHY DO I CARE HUGAGLALGALGAL
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I get voted down without comment. Seems to me like everyone else simply put as much effort into their response as you did. For some people, the sarcastic comment is the knee-jerk reaction (you) and for others, the voting down or up is the knee-jerk reaction. I mean, you expect a thesis to justify a 1 vote for something that really required no thought on your part, but if people voted you a 5 and said nothing, no complaints, right? - T P.S. ITS JUST AN INTERNET VOTE WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE FOR THAT MATTER WHY DO I CARE HUGAGLALGALGAL
Fisticuffs wrote: Seems to me like everyone else simply put as much effort into their response as you did. I've always believed that rhetorical questions deserve sarcastic answers. So... yes, I guess it was a knee-jerk response. Fisticuffs wrote: I mean, you expect a thesis to justify a 1 vote for something that really required no thought on your part, but if people voted you a 5 and said nothing, no complaints, right? Huh? Who asked for a thesis? A simple one or two line comment would suffice... with table of contents, footnotes and sources of course. Fisticuffs wrote: P.S. ITS JUST AN INTERNET VOTE WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE I really don't. I was trying to shame a few lurkers into opening up and expressing their opinions. That is the point of a discussion forum... no? "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Fisticuffs wrote: Seems to me like everyone else simply put as much effort into their response as you did. I've always believed that rhetorical questions deserve sarcastic answers. So... yes, I guess it was a knee-jerk response. Fisticuffs wrote: I mean, you expect a thesis to justify a 1 vote for something that really required no thought on your part, but if people voted you a 5 and said nothing, no complaints, right? Huh? Who asked for a thesis? A simple one or two line comment would suffice... with table of contents, footnotes and sources of course. Fisticuffs wrote: P.S. ITS JUST AN INTERNET VOTE WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE I really don't. I was trying to shame a few lurkers into opening up and expressing their opinions. That is the point of a discussion forum... no? "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: expressing their opinions Opinions are over-rated.
"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
Honoured as one of The Most Helpful Members of 2004
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International community is pushing Syria to withdraw from Lebanon[^], and it sounds fair and good. But will the international community push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories Israel is seizing[^]?
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
How you failed to notice intense pressure on Israel from US? They have already given time table to withdraw from Palestine as US wanted. Deepak Khajuria
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Mike Mullikin wrote: expressing their opinions Opinions are over-rated.
"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
Honoured as one of The Most Helpful Members of 2004
PJ Arends wrote: Opinions are over-rated. If you take the pi out of opinions you might cry. Regardz Colin J Davies The most LinkedIn CPian (that I know of anyhow) :-)
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K(arl) wrote: Replace "International community" by "US" if you feel more comfortable with it, or if you're unable to make the distincti Oddly enough I include the US in the "International Community". ;) Our [the US] blind eye towards Israeli transgressions is terrible and must stop if true peace is ever to be achieved in that region. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Oddly enough I include the US in the "International Community". I may have you confused with another Mike, sorry :-D;)
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
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K(arl) wrote: International community is pushing Syria to withdraw from Lebanon[^], and it sounds fair and good. But will the international community push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories Israel is seizing[^]? Because Israel has claims to the territory, but Syria doesn't? Because Lebanon doesn't exercise terror against Syrian civilians? Because (some? most?) Lebanese want Syria out of Lebanon, not out of existance? Don't expect withdrawals or fence removal any time soon. Until Israelis feel safe, Palestinians will suffer. Any passing day without Israeli death is one day closer to improvement in Palestinian lives.
Felix Gartsman wrote: Because Israel has claims to the territory, but Syria doesn't? AFAIK, Syria does. Seen from Damascus, isn't Lebanon part of the "Greater Syria"? Felix Gartsman wrote: Because Lebanon doesn't exercise terror against Syrian civilians? Would be interesting to know what Palestinians think about Israeli policy towards them, and if they consider is as a terror policy. Felix Gartsman wrote: Because (some? most?) Lebanese want Syria out of Lebanon, not out of existance Some (most?) of the Palestinian want a country and are ready to compromise with Israel (or Abbas wouldn't have been elected with such a huge margin, right?) Felix Gartsman wrote: Don't expect withdrawals or fence removal any time soon I've got no problem with the fence as long as it follows the Green Line and isn't used as an expansionist tool to seize foreign land. Felix Gartsman wrote: Until Israelis feel safe, Palestinians will suffer and vice-versa?
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
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How you failed to notice intense pressure on Israel from US? They have already given time table to withdraw from Palestine as US wanted. Deepak Khajuria
Deepak Khajuria wrote: How you failed to notice intense pressure on Israel from US? Yep, I failed to notice that.
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
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I think we are looking at the latest invention to replace democracy: Demonstrocracy. The one with the best street show, wins the election. To me this all looks like it is elborately staged. Someone with money printed all those nice street signs - these definitely are staged event - on a large scale.
Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right. - Schopenhauer
staged maybe, but with about 800K+ people in the street, and in peace ... I'm surprised and frankly quite happy ...
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
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PJ Arends wrote: Opinions are over-rated. If you take the pi out of opinions you might cry. Regardz Colin J Davies The most LinkedIn CPian (that I know of anyhow) :-)
ColinDavies wrote: If you take the pi out of opinions you might cry. had to give that comment a 5... it really tickled my funnybone :) -- Raoul Snyman Saturn Laboratories e-mail: raoul.snyman@saturnlaboratories.co.za web: http://www.saturnlaboratories.co.za/ blog: http://blog.saturnlaboratories.co.za/ linux user: #333298
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Because Israel has claims to the territory, but Syria doesn't? AFAIK, Syria does. Seen from Damascus, isn't Lebanon part of the "Greater Syria"? Felix Gartsman wrote: Because Lebanon doesn't exercise terror against Syrian civilians? Would be interesting to know what Palestinians think about Israeli policy towards them, and if they consider is as a terror policy. Felix Gartsman wrote: Because (some? most?) Lebanese want Syria out of Lebanon, not out of existance Some (most?) of the Palestinian want a country and are ready to compromise with Israel (or Abbas wouldn't have been elected with such a huge margin, right?) Felix Gartsman wrote: Don't expect withdrawals or fence removal any time soon I've got no problem with the fence as long as it follows the Green Line and isn't used as an expansionist tool to seize foreign land. Felix Gartsman wrote: Until Israelis feel safe, Palestinians will suffer and vice-versa?
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
K(arl) wrote: Because Israel has claims to the territory, but Syria doesn't? AFAIK, Syria does. Seen from Damascus, isn't Lebanon part of the "Greater Syria"? It's theoretic colonial ideas, not concrete claims and were never official. K(arl) wrote: Because Lebanon doesn't exercise terror against Syrian civilians? Would be interesting to know what Palestinians think about Israeli policy towards them, and if they consider is as a terror policy. It's not like Mofaz sits now and plans to bomb Gaza sea-food restaurant. K(arl) wrote: Because (some? most?) Lebanese want Syria out of Lebanon, not out of existance Some (most?) of the Palestinian want a country and are ready to compromise with Israel (or Abbas wouldn't have been elected with such a huge margin, right?) Palestinian presedential elections were nice show, with no real competition. When Hamas participated it won 80% to 20%. Anyhow, Palestinian ideas of a compromise is a non-starter for any future Israeli government. K(arl) wrote: Don't expect withdrawals or fence removal any time soon I've got no problem with the fence as long as it follows the Green Line and isn't used as an expansionist tool to seize foreign land. Unfortunatelly green line is military undefendable in many areas, as usually happens with arbitrary borders.
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K(arl) wrote: Because Israel has claims to the territory, but Syria doesn't? AFAIK, Syria does. Seen from Damascus, isn't Lebanon part of the "Greater Syria"? It's theoretic colonial ideas, not concrete claims and were never official. K(arl) wrote: Because Lebanon doesn't exercise terror against Syrian civilians? Would be interesting to know what Palestinians think about Israeli policy towards them, and if they consider is as a terror policy. It's not like Mofaz sits now and plans to bomb Gaza sea-food restaurant. K(arl) wrote: Because (some? most?) Lebanese want Syria out of Lebanon, not out of existance Some (most?) of the Palestinian want a country and are ready to compromise with Israel (or Abbas wouldn't have been elected with such a huge margin, right?) Palestinian presedential elections were nice show, with no real competition. When Hamas participated it won 80% to 20%. Anyhow, Palestinian ideas of a compromise is a non-starter for any future Israeli government. K(arl) wrote: Don't expect withdrawals or fence removal any time soon I've got no problem with the fence as long as it follows the Green Line and isn't used as an expansionist tool to seize foreign land. Unfortunatelly green line is military undefendable in many areas, as usually happens with arbitrary borders.
Felix Gartsman wrote: It's theoretic colonial ideas As are settlers claims. Felix Gartsman wrote: were never official Are now claims on West Bank and Gaza an official policy from the State of Israel? :confused: Felix Gartsman wrote: it's not like Mofaz sits now and plans to bomb Gaza sea-food restaurant. Oh, it would be some kind of collateral damage, I presume. Felix Gartsman wrote: Palestinian presedential elections were nice show, with no real competition Yeah, legitimity of elections under a military occupation by a foreign power is disputable. Felix Gartsman wrote: Anyhow, Palestinian ideas of a compromise is a non-starter for any future Israeli government. Then the only solution Israel has is now to genocide the palestinian people. Isn't that great? Felix Gartsman wrote: Unfortunatelly green line is military undefendable in many areas, as usually happens with arbitrary borders. Then build the fence inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel.
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
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Felix Gartsman wrote: It's theoretic colonial ideas As are settlers claims. Felix Gartsman wrote: were never official Are now claims on West Bank and Gaza an official policy from the State of Israel? :confused: Felix Gartsman wrote: it's not like Mofaz sits now and plans to bomb Gaza sea-food restaurant. Oh, it would be some kind of collateral damage, I presume. Felix Gartsman wrote: Palestinian presedential elections were nice show, with no real competition Yeah, legitimity of elections under a military occupation by a foreign power is disputable. Felix Gartsman wrote: Anyhow, Palestinian ideas of a compromise is a non-starter for any future Israeli government. Then the only solution Israel has is now to genocide the palestinian people. Isn't that great? Felix Gartsman wrote: Unfortunatelly green line is military undefendable in many areas, as usually happens with arbitrary borders. Then build the fence inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel.
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
K(arl) wrote: It's theoretic colonial ideas As are settlers claims. Not really, the territory was British, the way it was partitioned is disputed. K(arl) wrote: Are now claims on West Bank and Gaza an official policy from the State of Israel? On parts of West Bank, absolutelly. K(arl) wrote: it's not like Mofaz sits now and plans to bomb Gaza sea-food restaurant. Oh, it would be some kind of collateral damage, I presume. Collateral damage is not direct intention. That's why there are different levels of death cause charges in court. K(arl) wrote: Felix Gartsman wrote: Anyhow, Palestinian ideas of a compromise is a non-starter for any future Israeli government. Then the only solution Israel has is now to genocide the palestinian people. Isn't that great? Genocide? Are you serious? K(arl) wrote: Unfortunatelly green line is military undefendable in many areas, as usually happens with arbitrary borders. Then build the fence inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel. There are no such borders. Palestine is not a country (yet). Behaving as the green line is a border is accepting Palestinian claims without agreement, that would be stupid negotiating technique.
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Oddly enough I include the US in the "International Community". I may have you confused with another Mike, sorry :-D;)
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
Either that or you just not giving him the benefit of the doubt. :) Jeremy Falcon
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K(arl) wrote: It's theoretic colonial ideas As are settlers claims. Not really, the territory was British, the way it was partitioned is disputed. K(arl) wrote: Are now claims on West Bank and Gaza an official policy from the State of Israel? On parts of West Bank, absolutelly. K(arl) wrote: it's not like Mofaz sits now and plans to bomb Gaza sea-food restaurant. Oh, it would be some kind of collateral damage, I presume. Collateral damage is not direct intention. That's why there are different levels of death cause charges in court. K(arl) wrote: Felix Gartsman wrote: Anyhow, Palestinian ideas of a compromise is a non-starter for any future Israeli government. Then the only solution Israel has is now to genocide the palestinian people. Isn't that great? Genocide? Are you serious? K(arl) wrote: Unfortunatelly green line is military undefendable in many areas, as usually happens with arbitrary borders. Then build the fence inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel. There are no such borders. Palestine is not a country (yet). Behaving as the green line is a border is accepting Palestinian claims without agreement, that would be stupid negotiating technique.
Felix Gartsman wrote: Collateral damage is not direct intention. That's why there are different levels of death cause charges in court. Glad that you used the death cause charge analogy, but didn't it strike you that it renders the 'Collateral damage is not direct intention.' argument invalid? When you fire a missile at something in a crowded area, it is almost certain that you hit something 'unintended' like children and such. You may call it collateral damage, I call it cold blooded murder. Karl wrote: Then build the fence inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel. Felix Gartsman wrote: There are no such borders. Erh?, yes there is. And how would you react if your neighbour started building a fence in your garden because there were shrubs in the split?, wouldn't you tell him that he should build the damn fence behind the shrub in his own garden? Felix Gartsman wrote: Behaving as the green line is a border is accepting Palestinian claims without agreement, that would be stupid negotiating technique. Terrorizing a population is a stupid negotiating technique, to avoid infuriating the other side is common sense. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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K(arl) wrote: It's theoretic colonial ideas As are settlers claims. Not really, the territory was British, the way it was partitioned is disputed. K(arl) wrote: Are now claims on West Bank and Gaza an official policy from the State of Israel? On parts of West Bank, absolutelly. K(arl) wrote: it's not like Mofaz sits now and plans to bomb Gaza sea-food restaurant. Oh, it would be some kind of collateral damage, I presume. Collateral damage is not direct intention. That's why there are different levels of death cause charges in court. K(arl) wrote: Felix Gartsman wrote: Anyhow, Palestinian ideas of a compromise is a non-starter for any future Israeli government. Then the only solution Israel has is now to genocide the palestinian people. Isn't that great? Genocide? Are you serious? K(arl) wrote: Unfortunatelly green line is military undefendable in many areas, as usually happens with arbitrary borders. Then build the fence inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel. There are no such borders. Palestine is not a country (yet). Behaving as the green line is a border is accepting Palestinian claims without agreement, that would be stupid negotiating technique.
Felix Gartsman wrote: On parts of West Bank, absolutelly. Could you please specify which ones? Is there any map of Israel's territorial claims? :confused: Felix Gartsman wrote: Collateral damage is not direct intention Are you some kind of lawyer? ;-P Some could argue collateral damages are a-priori tolerated homicides, and not manslaughters. Felix Gartsman wrote: Genocide? Are you serious? Partly. I know Israel won't ever do that, however: There's already a "quiet deportation" of East Jerusalem Palestinians [^], not that far from ethnic cleansing. Some extremists are also calling to "kill ‘em all right now"[^]. If Israel isn't able to settle peacefully with the palestinians, what are the other options? Israel won't be able to military dominate them forever, it's a colonial situation, and democracies can't stand that for long. Peace through conpromise is the only way out the circle of violence. Felix Gartsman wrote: There are no such borders Tue, but they are accepted de facto. Imagine that during the 30's France was building the Maginot Line in Saar[^] territory. Wouldn't other countries have considered that as an annexion? Felix Gartsman wrote: that would be stupid negotiating technique. Doing otherwise is an imperialistic technique of taking an advance ("prendre des gages", I don't know how to translate this expression). ----- Slightly OT, what do you think about this current controversy[^] between our countries?
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Felix Gartsman wrote: On parts of West Bank, absolutelly. Could you please specify which ones? Is there any map of Israel's territorial claims? :confused: Felix Gartsman wrote: Collateral damage is not direct intention Are you some kind of lawyer? ;-P Some could argue collateral damages are a-priori tolerated homicides, and not manslaughters. Felix Gartsman wrote: Genocide? Are you serious? Partly. I know Israel won't ever do that, however: There's already a "quiet deportation" of East Jerusalem Palestinians [^], not that far from ethnic cleansing. Some extremists are also calling to "kill ‘em all right now"[^]. If Israel isn't able to settle peacefully with the palestinians, what are the other options? Israel won't be able to military dominate them forever, it's a colonial situation, and democracies can't stand that for long. Peace through conpromise is the only way out the circle of violence. Felix Gartsman wrote: There are no such borders Tue, but they are accepted de facto. Imagine that during the 30's France was building the Maginot Line in Saar[^] territory. Wouldn't other countries have considered that as an annexion? Felix Gartsman wrote: that would be stupid negotiating technique. Doing otherwise is an imperialistic technique of taking an advance ("prendre des gages", I don't know how to translate this expression). ----- Slightly OT, what do you think about this current controversy[^] between our countries?
K(arl) wrote: Could you please specify which ones? Is there any map of Israel's territorial claims? As I understand it (there is no official map because of politics), Israel will claim the major settlements areas like Ariel. K(arl) wrote: Are you some kind of lawyer? No, just part-time hobby. K(arl) wrote: Some could argue collateral damages are a-priori tolerated homicides, and not manslaughters. In the end it is a lose-lose situation - dead Israeli or dead Palestinians. First priority for a goverment is to protect its citizens. K(arl) wrote: There's already a "quiet deportation" of East Jerusalem Palestinians [^], not that far from ethnic cleansing. The issue is reunions. One marries someone from territories and brings them to Israel. This is done systematically to facilitate the "right" of return. Given the fragile Jewish-Arab balance,any movement that unnaturally tips it will provoke resistance. Not pretty, maybe unfair, but Israel without Jewish majority is like France without the French. K(arl) wrote: Some extremists are also calling to "kill ‘em all right now"[^]. There are always such people, luckily most of the time they just talk. K(arl) wrote: Peace through conpromise is the only way out the circle of violence. I don't see Palestinians come even close to acceptable terms. The population needs de-extremenation period after Arafat. K(arl) wrote: Tue, but they are accepted de facto. By who? Both sides dispute them. K(arl) wrote: Doing otherwise is an imperialistic technique of taking an advance ("prendre des gages", I don't know how to translate this expression). The fence path is temporary, and its creation is a result of Palestinian attacks. Unfortunatelly full justice during war is a rare creature. K(arl) wrote: Slightly OT, what do you think about this current controversy[^] between our countries? Weapon industries export is economically important. And usually it's not misstreated, this incident was obviously not such case. Arms dealing is a dirty business.
