The Culture Of Life
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Jim Crafton wrote: There is also her family to consider as well, isn't there? No. US laws favor the spouse. Her family had to make a case of his incompetence if they wanted control. They failed. Only her husband (not the law) needs to consider her families feelings and they his. Their opinions are diametrically opposed, hence the 8 year legal fight. Jim Crafton wrote: Honestly, I don't have a clue what the "right" answer is, or if there even is one. Put yourself in Terri's position and the "right" answer becomes crystal clear. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Put yourself in Terri's position and the "right" answer becomes crystal clear Maybe for you. I doesn't at all seem crytal clear to me. But then I also think Marc brought up some really good points. At best, we are all speculating on this - not a single one of us outside of her family and husband really understands or knows what the hell is going on. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Mike Gaskey wrote: his common law wife and later their two children Why would that motivate him to want to pull Terri's feeding tube? What do you imagine his motivation is? "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Why would that motivate him to want to pull Terri's feeding tube? What do you imagine his motivation is? Pretty difficult to care for a severely handicapped wife while trying to provide for another family, don't you think? Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
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This is Randall Terry[^]:
"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed... If we're going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along. They are here to take over... Somebody like Susan Smith should be dead. She should be dead now. Some people will go, "Well how do you know God doesn't have a wonderful plan for her life?" He does, it's listed in the Bible. His plan for her is that she should be dead."
So what?
“Our family asked Randall Terry to come, and we gave him carte blanche to put Terri’s fight in front of the American people,” Schindler [Terri Shiavo's father] said. “He did exactly what we asked, and more. Randall organized vigils and protests, he coordinated the media, he helped us meet with Governor Bush.”
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That evil bastard! Just as soon as the state is finished killing Terri, we should all do something about that hypocrite! "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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Mike Gaskey wrote: The husband is trying to kill her through starvation and deprivation of water. You're goofy! She was "killed" 15 years ago when her brain was starved of oxygen during a heart attack. Her parents are in denial. Keeping a brain-dead human body "alive" for no reason other than to pacify their own feelings is sick. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike, thats absurd. I agree that the husband has the right to make the decision, but she is, in fact, being killed. I won't call it murder, but if the only thing you need to live is food and water and it is purposefully withheld, that is not being "allowed to die" that is being killed - regardless of the condition you are in otherwise. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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Chris Losinger wrote: and what was that ? his common law wife and later their two children. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
please note that court records indicate that her parents encouraged him to date other women. Image Toolkits | Image Processing | Cleek
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Why would that motivate him to want to pull Terri's feeding tube? What do you imagine his motivation is? Pretty difficult to care for a severely handicapped wife while trying to provide for another family, don't you think? Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Mike Gaskey wrote: Pretty difficult to care for a severely handicapped wife while trying to provide for another family, don't you think? BS. Her family has offered to accept all responsibility for her. It didn't sway him. This is most certainly NOT about time or money. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Why would that motivate him to want to pull Terri's feeding tube? What do you imagine his motivation is? Pretty difficult to care for a severely handicapped wife while trying to provide for another family, don't you think? Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Mike Gaskey wrote: Pretty difficult to care for a severely handicapped wife while trying to provide for another family, don't you think? if he just wanted to get her out of the way, he could hand her off to her parents. Image Toolkits | Image Processing | Cleek
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Mike, thats absurd. I agree that the husband has the right to make the decision, but she is, in fact, being killed. I won't call it murder, but if the only thing you need to live is food and water and it is purposefully withheld, that is not being "allowed to die" that is being killed - regardless of the condition you are in otherwise. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: ...but she is, in fact, being killed. I disagree. In order to be "killed" one must be truly alive. Human life is defined by self awareness. Lacking awareness for 15+ years is a pretty good indication that she's already dead - only her brain stem doesn't know it. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Fisticuffs wrote: Why do you even feel qualified to pass judgement on this case without hearing the evidence? The evidence I see is a husband with a new (common law)wife and two children who suddenly remembered that his first wife didn't want to live this way (after he took nursing courses to help her live this way) and denied her any therapy, even to the extent of demanding the television not be turned on so all forms of stimulation were denied. This, contrasted with parents and siblings who want her to live and would care for her. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Mike Gaskey wrote: The evidence I see Let me rephrase my point. 1. The courts already knew this and it didn't affect the decision. 2. The courts saw way more evidence on this case than you ever will. Why do you even feel qualified to pass judgement without hearing all the evidence? You have no right to an opinion on this case. Nobody does.
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Mike Gaskey wrote: The evidence I see Let me rephrase my point. 1. The courts already knew this and it didn't affect the decision. 2. The courts saw way more evidence on this case than you ever will. Why do you even feel qualified to pass judgement without hearing all the evidence? You have no right to an opinion on this case. Nobody does.
Fisticuffs wrote: You have no right to an opinion on this case. Nobody does. I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
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Stan Shannon wrote: ...but she is, in fact, being killed. I disagree. In order to be "killed" one must be truly alive. Human life is defined by self awareness. Lacking awareness for 15+ years is a pretty good indication that she's already dead - only her brain stem doesn't know it. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: I disagree. In order to be "killed" one must be truly alive. Human life is defined by self awareness. Lacking awareness for 15+ years is a pretty good indication that she's already dead - only her brain stem doesn't know it. First, there are many who question whether she was, in fact, that far gone. The husband was an ass, at least, for not letting another test or two be done. Second, her family, not including the husband, felt she was capable of some responsiveness. Their concerns should have been given more credence. I bow to the legal decisions, but the court's refusal to be more responsive to their pleas is pathetic. Medical science has been wrong before and could have been wrong about Terri. Lastly, we are skating onto very thin ice when we arbitrarily decide what represents "truly alive". If she had 10% more brain functioning would she have been truly alive? 20%? Where is the line? I think the fact that she needed only food and water to survive, just as you and I do, is as good a metric for being truly alive as any other. I think it is always best to err on the side of life and continue to insist that she is being killed. If the death is necessary than it is necessary, but it should not be minimized to make us all feel more comforable about it. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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Fisticuffs wrote: You have no right to an opinion on this case. Nobody does. I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Mike Gaskey wrote: I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Well, actually, since you seem to have such strong beliefs and are doing absolutely nothing about them, you're already on par with the 'good' germans who did nothing about it. In fact, you're a little bit worse, since you CLEARLY BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT KNOW that what's going on is EVIL and you're doing nothing about it. Unless you count bitching on the internet as 'action.' Way to keep to those convictions, skippy! Once again: Your opinion on this case is worthless because you haven't seen all the evidence.
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Mike Gaskey wrote: I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Well, actually, since you seem to have such strong beliefs and are doing absolutely nothing about them, you're already on par with the 'good' germans who did nothing about it. In fact, you're a little bit worse, since you CLEARLY BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT KNOW that what's going on is EVIL and you're doing nothing about it. Unless you count bitching on the internet as 'action.' Way to keep to those convictions, skippy! Once again: Your opinion on this case is worthless because you haven't seen all the evidence.
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K(arl) wrote: Or don't you respect the decisions of your judicial system? Isn't his husband his legal representant? The judge in this case is supporting euthanasia, and no I don't respect it. K(arl) wrote: did this woman expressed any will on her situation? According to her husband, yes. According to her family and childhood best friend, no - as a matter of fact she said she wouldn't want this to happen to her. K(arl) wrote: A lethal injection would be more appropriate. Nah, let's just fire up the ovens. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
K(arl) wrote: Or don't you respect the decisions of your judicial system? Mike Gaskey wrote: The judge in this case disagrees with me, so no I don't respect it.
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Fisticuffs wrote: You have no right to an opinion on this case. Nobody does. I most certainly do, to not have an opinion would place me on a par with Germans who stood and watched others fire the ovens during WWII. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
What would you do if trying to save Terri put your wifes life on immediate risk?
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
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Fisticuffs wrote: Why do you even feel qualified to pass judgement on this case without hearing the evidence? The evidence I see is a husband with a new (common law)wife and two children who suddenly remembered that his first wife didn't want to live this way (after he took nursing courses to help her live this way) and denied her any therapy, even to the extent of demanding the television not be turned on so all forms of stimulation were denied. This, contrasted with parents and siblings who want her to live and would care for her. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Mike Gaskey wrote: even to the extent of demanding the television not be turned on so all forms of stimulation were denied Well, now, I would say that the stimulation from TV would only lead to further brain death! (Sorry to make a macabre joke out of this subject. I hope no one is truly offended). Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing YAPO
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Jim Crafton wrote: There is also her family to consider as well, isn't there? No. US laws favor the spouse. Her family had to make a case of his incompetence if they wanted control. They failed. Only her husband (not the law) needs to consider her families feelings and they his. Their opinions are diametrically opposed, hence the 8 year legal fight. Jim Crafton wrote: Honestly, I don't have a clue what the "right" answer is, or if there even is one. Put yourself in Terri's position and the "right" answer becomes crystal clear. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Put yourself in Terri's position and the "right" answer becomes crystal clear. If all I could do was to occaisionally follow a baloon with my eyes, my constant wish would be somebody...please...PULL THE F***ING PLUG! is this the 'crystal clear' you had in mind? Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Put yourself in Terri's position and the "right" answer becomes crystal clear. If all I could do was to occaisionally follow a baloon with my eyes, my constant wish would be somebody...please...PULL THE F***ING PLUG! is this the 'crystal clear' you had in mind? Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I disagree. In order to be "killed" one must be truly alive. Human life is defined by self awareness. Lacking awareness for 15+ years is a pretty good indication that she's already dead - only her brain stem doesn't know it. First, there are many who question whether she was, in fact, that far gone. The husband was an ass, at least, for not letting another test or two be done. Second, her family, not including the husband, felt she was capable of some responsiveness. Their concerns should have been given more credence. I bow to the legal decisions, but the court's refusal to be more responsive to their pleas is pathetic. Medical science has been wrong before and could have been wrong about Terri. Lastly, we are skating onto very thin ice when we arbitrarily decide what represents "truly alive". If she had 10% more brain functioning would she have been truly alive? 20%? Where is the line? I think the fact that she needed only food and water to survive, just as you and I do, is as good a metric for being truly alive as any other. I think it is always best to err on the side of life and continue to insist that she is being killed. If the death is necessary than it is necessary, but it should not be minimized to make us all feel more comforable about it. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: Second, her family, not including the husband, felt she was capable of some responsiveness. Their concerns should have been given more credence. Every single expert who has examined her says they are NOT responses - only reflexs. How many experts must agree before the parents understand? Stan Shannon wrote: If the death is necessary than it is necessary, but it should not be minimized to make us all feel more comforable about it. Nor should it be prolonged artificially out of selfish denial and hopeless prayers. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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What would you do if trying to save Terri put your wifes life on immediate risk?
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenpeterchen wrote: What would you do if trying to save Terri put your wifes life on immediate risk? Not that I agree with Mr. Gaskey's analogy but... name a single national revolution where a great number of people didn't put their lives and their families lives in danger. History is full of such people. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick