don't read, for you may not feel so well afterwards
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What would that change? I'm still in for the Escape from New York idea.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenChange? Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta)
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Ahhh, then no one should spend one moment in jail or prison, right? Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta)
Toasty0 wrote: Ahhh, then no one should spend one moment in jail or prison, right? Wrong. We are talking about death penalty.. that means to KILL SOMEBODY, you understand? yeah society has to shield itself from murderers and rapists etc. But when you (I mean system, not you Jerry) kill you are no better... Plus while you can release somebody from jail when you find out he's innocent, but when you execute somebody then there is nothing you can do. David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
Change? Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta)
That's your answer?? :confused: David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
Toasty0 wrote: Ahhh, then no one should spend one moment in jail or prison, right? Wrong. We are talking about death penalty.. that means to KILL SOMEBODY, you understand? yeah society has to shield itself from murderers and rapists etc. But when you (I mean system, not you Jerry) kill you are no better... Plus while you can release somebody from jail when you find out he's innocent, but when you execute somebody then there is nothing you can do. David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidySo, even though you think the system is flawed it ok to take only 25 years, 30 years, or more, but you don't consider that a fate worse than death? Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta)
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That's your answer?? :confused: David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidyNo. But I am asking for a clarification. Got a problem with that? Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta)
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No. But I am asking for a clarification. Got a problem with that? Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta)
not really a problem. Well I can't speak for peterchen but IMO what he was saying is that it won't bring her back to life... but then again I can speak only for myself. David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
So, even though you think the system is flawed it ok to take only 25 years, 30 years, or more, but you don't consider that a fate worse than death? Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta)
well I have no idea how is must be to spend years in prison... at least you hava chance to see your kids growing or something, but hell when you die it's not for 20 years it's once for ever... maybe it's just me. Hey I am ateist but I am 110% into "thou shall not kill" David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
Change? Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta)
What would killing him change?
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
What would killing him change?
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenI don't mean this as an argument for or against the death penalty. I just don't understand the argument: peterchen wrote: What would killing him change? I don't think that criminal punishment (incarceration, execution, etc) is meant to change anything, unless you talk in terms of changing a free man into a prisoner or a living person into a dead one. Why is it supposed to change anything? It is not about change, it is about punishment. There is no punishment for any crime that undoes the hurt suffered by the victim. Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Nah, you are not understanding it again. Problem is that judges run in the real world not in world of ones and zeroes... As long as probability of bribing jury or mistakes or someting is bigger then 0% I am against death penalty that's it. While I may not be aginst executing murderers I am against even POSSIBILITY to execute innocent. So in your question is problem with Toasty0 wrote: Anyone think for moment that if this monster is found guilty he should be spared the death penality? If you ask Anyone think for moment that if this monster is guilty he should be spared the death penality? then answer is NO. David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidydnh wrote: While I may not be aginst executing murderers I am against even POSSIBILITY to execute innocent. What about the innocent child who is dead? If we had executed this monster the first time he molested, she would still be alive. Do you accept responsibility for the loss of her innocent life? Stan Shannon
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dnh wrote: While I may not be aginst executing murderers I am against even POSSIBILITY to execute innocent. What about the innocent child who is dead? If we had executed this monster the first time he molested, she would still be alive. Do you accept responsibility for the loss of her innocent life? Stan Shannon
NOBODY have right to end life of somebody else (if it's not someone's will, otherwise arguable). Period. Anonymous wrote: If we had executed this monster the first time he molested If we had locked him she would be alive as well. Anonymous wrote: Do you accept responsibility for the loss of her innocent life? :confused: If I were her parent, if I were there and did nothing to help, if I were jury and made wrong decision, if I were murderer, then I'd accept responsibility of her life. No I don't. Or how was it meant? David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
I don't mean this as an argument for or against the death penalty. I just don't understand the argument: peterchen wrote: What would killing him change? I don't think that criminal punishment (incarceration, execution, etc) is meant to change anything, unless you talk in terms of changing a free man into a prisoner or a living person into a dead one. Why is it supposed to change anything? It is not about change, it is about punishment. There is no punishment for any crime that undoes the hurt suffered by the victim. Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote: It is not about change, it is about punishment :doh: Why am I so naive? I thought it should be about protecting society... David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
Gary Kirkham wrote: It is not about change, it is about punishment :doh: Why am I so naive? I thought it should be about protecting society... David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidyWow, you are naive! I guess that instead of "let the punishment fit the crime", it should be "let the level of protection for the society fit the crime." edit: If you carry that logic farther, then you might say that the maximum level of protection for the society could be achieved by permanently eliminating all convicted criminals. Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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NOBODY have right to end life of somebody else (if it's not someone's will, otherwise arguable). Period. Anonymous wrote: If we had executed this monster the first time he molested If we had locked him she would be alive as well. Anonymous wrote: Do you accept responsibility for the loss of her innocent life? :confused: If I were her parent, if I were there and did nothing to help, if I were jury and made wrong decision, if I were murderer, then I'd accept responsibility of her life. No I don't. Or how was it meant? David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidydnh wrote: Or how was it meant? This child was just as much a victim of failures of the state as any innocent person executed by the state. An innocent person is dead because of the state. We are all just as repsonsible for her death as we would be for any innocent sent to the electric chair. I have no strong opinions regarding the death penalty one way or the other, but I do have problems with those who seem to care far more for the innocents killed by the state in an attempt to protect society from them, than they do for those innocenets killed by the state by not trying hard enough to protect society in the name of some misquided notion of justice. I have no problem with locking these people up permanently, but I also have no problem with simply killing them when convicted. I am willing to take my chances of being wrongfully executed if it helps to save a childs life. Are you? Stan Shannon
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dnh wrote: Or how was it meant? This child was just as much a victim of failures of the state as any innocent person executed by the state. An innocent person is dead because of the state. We are all just as repsonsible for her death as we would be for any innocent sent to the electric chair. I have no strong opinions regarding the death penalty one way or the other, but I do have problems with those who seem to care far more for the innocents killed by the state in an attempt to protect society from them, than they do for those innocenets killed by the state by not trying hard enough to protect society in the name of some misquided notion of justice. I have no problem with locking these people up permanently, but I also have no problem with simply killing them when convicted. I am willing to take my chances of being wrongfully executed if it helps to save a childs life. Are you? Stan Shannon
Anonymous wrote: I have no strong opinions regarding the death penalty one way or the other, but I do have problems with those who seem to care far more for the innocents killed by the state in an attempt to protect society from them, than they do for those innocenets killed by the state by not trying hard enough to protect society in the name of some misquided notion of justice. hmmm. You know the problem is that you can vote against death penalty. You can't vote against killing in the street. I can see your point but what you said I belive has noting to do with how I care for innocents killed on the street. Anonymous wrote: I have no problem with locking these people up permanently, but I also have no problem with simply killing them when convicted. I do. Anonymous wrote: it helps to save a childs life. Are you? Again, I don't see why we (or better you, we in civilized world don't have death penalty) have to kill them? As you too said we can just lock them. Ok maybe give them chance to decide wheater they want to be executed or kept in prison for the rest of their lives? David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
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Wow, you are naive! I guess that instead of "let the punishment fit the crime", it should be "let the level of protection for the society fit the crime." edit: If you carry that logic farther, then you might say that the maximum level of protection for the society could be achieved by permanently eliminating all convicted criminals. Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
[OT] Gary Kirkham wrote: Wow, you are naive! yeah... you know I really belived Phila can beat Detriot. Damned. :((:(( [/OT] Gary Kirkham wrote: If you carry that logic farther There is a suitable term for it... ad absurdum. My opinion depends on what you mean by "permanently eliminating". David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
Anonymous wrote: I have no strong opinions regarding the death penalty one way or the other, but I do have problems with those who seem to care far more for the innocents killed by the state in an attempt to protect society from them, than they do for those innocenets killed by the state by not trying hard enough to protect society in the name of some misquided notion of justice. hmmm. You know the problem is that you can vote against death penalty. You can't vote against killing in the street. I can see your point but what you said I belive has noting to do with how I care for innocents killed on the street. Anonymous wrote: I have no problem with locking these people up permanently, but I also have no problem with simply killing them when convicted. I do. Anonymous wrote: it helps to save a childs life. Are you? Again, I don't see why we (or better you, we in civilized world don't have death penalty) have to kill them? As you too said we can just lock them. Ok maybe give them chance to decide wheater they want to be executed or kept in prison for the rest of their lives? David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidydnh wrote:. You know the problem is that you can vote against death penalty. You can't vote against killing in the street. But you can vote for much harser penalties for certain types of crimes with the same fervor that you would to get rid of the death penalty. You can vote to muzzle groups like the ACLU. This man had already been convicted of molestation, he was in the hands of the state and they let him go. If he had been executed (or permanently locked up if possible) at that time, that little girl would still be alive. There is absolutely no difference between the loss of her innocent life and the lose of an innocent life in the electric chair - none at all, the legal system erred and we sacrificed an innocent life. Her blood is own our hands just as certainly as if we had executed her. dnh wrote: As you too said we can just lock them. The problem is that there will be a hue and cry from groups such as the ACLU that locking sex offenders up forever is "cruel and unusual" and they will end up getting released to molest and kill again. When they do kill, those who oppose the death penalty becuase it is imperfect, will be no where to be found to take repsonsibility for those murdered. Stan Shannon
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dnh wrote:. You know the problem is that you can vote against death penalty. You can't vote against killing in the street. But you can vote for much harser penalties for certain types of crimes with the same fervor that you would to get rid of the death penalty. You can vote to muzzle groups like the ACLU. This man had already been convicted of molestation, he was in the hands of the state and they let him go. If he had been executed (or permanently locked up if possible) at that time, that little girl would still be alive. There is absolutely no difference between the loss of her innocent life and the lose of an innocent life in the electric chair - none at all, the legal system erred and we sacrificed an innocent life. Her blood is own our hands just as certainly as if we had executed her. dnh wrote: As you too said we can just lock them. The problem is that there will be a hue and cry from groups such as the ACLU that locking sex offenders up forever is "cruel and unusual" and they will end up getting released to molest and kill again. When they do kill, those who oppose the death penalty becuase it is imperfect, will be no where to be found to take repsonsibility for those murdered. Stan Shannon
Basicaly we both want the same thing ("surprisingly", no one want monsters like that to walk free), which can be achived by death penalty or life-long jail. I say we don't have right to kill. That's the first time I hear about ACLU. Anonymous wrote: that locking sex offenders up forever is "cruel and unusual" and they will end up getting released to molest and kill again. So, kill them with lethal injection or someting is not "cruel or unusual"? oh please... Again, I'd like to see survey how many prisoners would prefer death sentence against life-long jail... (It would be morbid survey, I know). Maybe I am comletely wrong? I don't know, we don't have death penalty here... and IMHO level of violence is not worse then in USA, but that's just my opinion not based on facts. Anonymous wrote: When they do kill, those who oppose the death penalty becuase it is imperfect Again and again, I don't say release them... but I say don't kill them. yes I am awared it brings some problems too... David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
Basicaly we both want the same thing ("surprisingly", no one want monsters like that to walk free), which can be achived by death penalty or life-long jail. I say we don't have right to kill. That's the first time I hear about ACLU. Anonymous wrote: that locking sex offenders up forever is "cruel and unusual" and they will end up getting released to molest and kill again. So, kill them with lethal injection or someting is not "cruel or unusual"? oh please... Again, I'd like to see survey how many prisoners would prefer death sentence against life-long jail... (It would be morbid survey, I know). Maybe I am comletely wrong? I don't know, we don't have death penalty here... and IMHO level of violence is not worse then in USA, but that's just my opinion not based on facts. Anonymous wrote: When they do kill, those who oppose the death penalty becuase it is imperfect Again and again, I don't say release them... but I say don't kill them. yes I am awared it brings some problems too... David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidydnh wrote: That's the first time I hear about ACLU. American Civil Liberties Union - basically an organization of socialist lawyers dedicated to subverting the legal system to achieve a more leftist social order - all in the guise of defending the constitution (which they could care less about) dnh wrote: So, kill them with lethal injection or someting is not "cruel or unusual"? oh please... Again, I'd like to see survey how many prisoners would prefer death sentence against life-long jail... (It would be morbid survey, I know). Maybe I am comletely wrong? I don't know, we don't have death penalty here... and IMHO level of violence is not worse then in USA, but that's just my opinion not based on facts. A lifetime in prison would be more cruel than a quick death with a needle. I know which I would prefer. But lawyers in organizations such as the ACLU can mkae the most modest forms of punhishment seem like a soviet gulag and have a lot of money and power backing them up to fight their cause. Any prisoner given a life sentence always has a very real hope of being released at some point. dnh wrote: Again and again, I don't say release them Yet they always seem to get released. If those who fight against the death penalty would fight just as hard to prevent very dangerous people from going free, I would agree with you completely. Until then, I will continue to entertain the necessity of the death penalty in a society as inherently violent as ours is in the US.
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I don’t watch a whole lot of television, although when I get home in the evenings around 7PM or so I try to catch some news just to see what’s going on in the world. Well, last night I wish I had not done so. It seems that additional details have arisen regarding the brutal rape and murder of the 9 year old Jessica Lunsford (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7578059/[^]). When you hear the words rape and murder in the same sentence one can reasonably assume that things cannot get any worse for the person involved. However, for this innocent child things were definitely worst: she was buried alive. Bad things happen in the world every day and at every minute: terrorism, war, natural disasters, starvation, rape, murder, and the list goes on and on with just about every bad thing you can think of. By now I would think everyone has adapted to the horrors of the times, such that when we hear bad news its impact on us is minor, perhaps non existent. However, this particular case has taken its toll on me. I’m a father, one three year old girl and a baby of only seven months, both of which I love more than anything else, above and beyond my own life. I just cannot imagine the pain this girl’s parents are feeling at this very moment and will continue to feel for the rest of their lives, no doubt a wound that will never heal. My eyes are watery as I write this thread, an occasional tear hear and there. Sadness? No doubt. Rage? That too. Sometimes I bitch and moan about life, about money usually, always wanting more and more. Bills to pay, mouths to feed, backs to clothe, education to provide, and of course everyone wants those extra luxuries. Yet it's events like these that make me pause, think, and realize how good I really have it. I may not have that beamer I’ve always wanted or that mansion up in the hills, but I do have my two little girls, and that’s worth infinity. Yet, however, more often than not I’m foolish enough to take this fact for granted. Perhaps little Jessica’s parents took her for granted as well, that is, expected her to always be there with her arms wide open, as if it such were a right rather than a privilege. Don’t we all take our children for granted? I know I have. We see and care for them every single day, expecting the next day to be just like the prior one, on so on and so forth. Indeed my eyes have been opened by this case. Nothing in
I gotta tell you, since I had kids, I come close to crying whenever I hear anything like this, or even see movies with a plot that involves harm to children. That's just how it is, at least for me. I'm in Singapore for the MVP conference. Man, I miss them.