Oh Cack
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If anyone is charged, let's hope it ISN'T the people who pulled the trigger - they had orders to kill and should not be made scapegoats because of any failings further up the chain of command.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: let's hope it ISN'T the people who pulled the trigger I would rather say, let's hope they won't be the only ones charged. "Following the orders" can't be accepted as the ultimate apology, or then most of the torturers, butchers and to sum up assholes are irresponsible or innocent.
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paulb wrote: trigger happy cops Here we go again, tabloid spin. If he hadn't been taken out, and had been a terrorist, and another 50 people had been killed, the same media would have been clamouring that the security services hadn't been doing their jobs properly. Have you got the faintest idea how stringent the selection and training is for armed officers? Most applicants don't even get through the first level of selection. Picture yourself in his place: bombs have just gone off killing 50+ people in London, and more attacks are expected. A man emerges from a house containing terrorists and goes into a crowded tube train. Your job is to protect the public. You don't know if he has a bomb on him, or a trigger device for a bomb elsewhere. Your choice is to take him out and potentially save many lives. You know there is a chance that he is innocent. You have a split second to make that choice. What do you do? The Police everywhere make mistakes, it's part of being human. It's impossible to stop mistakes happening, all we can do is to try to minimise the number of mistakes and their effects. Of course it is tragic that an innocent man died, but the blame for his death lies totally with the terrorists. Without them there is no way he would have been shot that day.
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This really brought a tear to my eye this morning: that poor young man, an innocent killed for what turns out to be no reason after a series of incredible, stupid blunders. And it is a terrible shame that the police felt they needed to cover it up: mistakes, however horrific, do happen and by trying to evade the truth they have not done themselves any favours. It is precisley at times like these that they should be seen to be doing their jobs in a highly professional and impartial manner. Whilst none of that will bring back Mr Menezes or offer any solace to his bereaved family hopefully the police can learn lessons for the future. The British police, whilst hamstrung by mountains of paperwork and awful leadership are, for the most part, decent honest people trying to do a very hard job under difficult circumstances.
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Having defended the police at the time because I believed they were professionals doing their jobs properly and they were telling the truth about what happened. I can only post this. http://www.itv.com/news/index_1677571.html[^] Words fail me.:( pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "So keep that smile on your face. Have a drink to help you sleep at night. They got what they desired. We're passive in their brave new world." New Model Army
I wonder why this didn't get out earlier? Best guess is that they must have classified the CCTV footage. Nasty business, made much worse by a good old british cock up and cover. Ryan
O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold Are but a cheat contrived by men of old, Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust And died in baseness—and their law is dust. al-Ma'arri (973-1057)
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'brought a tear to my eye' You are either lying or way too sensitive. Nunc est bibendum!
No really, this sort of thing does sadden me greatly and I'm not known for being a particularly sensitive soul. It was just a waste of a young life. I do feel, btw, you are being overly harsh and unfair with the police (a couple of your posts above). These men and women undertake an utterly thankless task. If they get it wrong they are villified. If they get it right, well, nobody notices, really, do they? I'm just glad that I don't have to shoulder that level of responsibility and I'm glad that someone as bitterly angry as you chose not to as well. Just what is it that has made you feel like that?
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K(arl) wrote: You can't apologize the men who pulled the triggers that easily. Tey aren't irresponsible people, or then prepare to be killed in the name of the so-called war on Terrorism. Please rephrase this: your meaning isn't clear. K(arl) wrote: It doesn't mean you aren't accountable for the mistakes you make. It may, however, mean that the person who took the decision (for whatever reason) to allow the trigger to be pulled is responsible and should shoulder that responsibility. I'm pretty sure that the man who actually pulled the trigger (and all of the police involved that day) must be feeling terrible remorse but, given the conditions and context, made the right decision at that moment in time. It is easy with hindsight to castigate all of the participants in this tragedy but bear in mind the circumstances surrounding the days events and that all of us, all of us, make mistakes.
Mark Merrens wrote: Please rephrase this: your meaning isn't clear Ok, let's try. I mean that the men who decided to shoot that man bears a part of responsibility for the mistake they made. It was probably a mistake, they probably didn't intend to kill a innocent, nonetheless they did, and should be accountable for this homicide. Mark Merrens wrote: It may, however, mean that the person who took the decision (for whatever reason) to allow the trigger to be pulled is responsible and should shoulder that responsibility Yes, this person is also IMO the main one who should shoulder that responsibility. However, I also think the shooter was part of the process. Mark Merrens wrote: bear in mind the circumstances surrounding the days events and that all of us, all of us, make mistakes I do! Let's take another example: A plane pilot makes a mistake, the plane crashes, everybody get killed. Because it is a mistake, does that mean that no one is responsible, and the families shouldn't get a compensation?
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No really, this sort of thing does sadden me greatly and I'm not known for being a particularly sensitive soul. It was just a waste of a young life. I do feel, btw, you are being overly harsh and unfair with the police (a couple of your posts above). These men and women undertake an utterly thankless task. If they get it wrong they are villified. If they get it right, well, nobody notices, really, do they? I'm just glad that I don't have to shoulder that level of responsibility and I'm glad that someone as bitterly angry as you chose not to as well. Just what is it that has made you feel like that?
Like I said, I cant see why they didnt stop him in the street way before he got to the tube. That decision was sheer stupidity. I've had police lie in court and cause me to get points and fines. OK, here you go, your car gets broken into. One WPC comes round, if you are lucky, and takes a statement. Fuck all happens. You get stopped without road tax, its a month out, and you have one special, one normal cop, a traffic car with a copper in it, and a panda with a copper for half an hour. Its hapened to me. I personally think our police are useless, they just pick on the motorist because it is an easy life and theyt are lazy fuckkers. They are also thugs. If they werent in uniform they would be behind bars. I happen to know this as my wife was a cop for 5 years and I went to a lot of police social events. Nunc est bibendum!
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: let's hope it ISN'T the people who pulled the trigger I would rather say, let's hope they won't be the only ones charged. "Following the orders" can't be accepted as the ultimate apology, or then most of the torturers, butchers and to sum up assholes are irresponsible or innocent.
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Sorry, but in this case, you're wrong. According to the leaked report they had explicit orders to shoot to kill. Whoever gave that order needs to be punished. If the officers who pulled the trigger are held responsible, then you can kiss any armed police presence in London goodbye - the others would down their weapons and hand in their cards.
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Like I said, I cant see why they didnt stop him in the street way before he got to the tube. That decision was sheer stupidity. I've had police lie in court and cause me to get points and fines. OK, here you go, your car gets broken into. One WPC comes round, if you are lucky, and takes a statement. Fuck all happens. You get stopped without road tax, its a month out, and you have one special, one normal cop, a traffic car with a copper in it, and a panda with a copper for half an hour. Its hapened to me. I personally think our police are useless, they just pick on the motorist because it is an easy life and theyt are lazy fuckkers. They are also thugs. If they werent in uniform they would be behind bars. I happen to know this as my wife was a cop for 5 years and I went to a lot of police social events. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: theyt are lazy f***kers. They are also thugs. I happen to know this as my wife was a cop for 5 years Which, by your usual twisted logic, makes her a thug and a lazy fucker right? You seem to have this knack of tarring entire groups of people with the same brush. Pathetic. The police do a (mostly) thankless job for fucking peanuts.
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What cock. If he was so suspicious he needed shooting if he ran, why the fuck didnt the police stop him on the street way before he got to any where crowded? The police are fucking idiots. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: The police are f***ing idiots. So every single police officer in the UK is a "fucking idiot" - or is it that some opiniated twat sat in Belgium is simply spouting his usual crap? Mmmm... My sister-in-law is in SO19, so I take your comments personally. Once again you demonstrate your stupidity. Yeh, someone fucked up bad - but that doesn't make the entire police force responsible.
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Mark Merrens wrote: Please rephrase this: your meaning isn't clear Ok, let's try. I mean that the men who decided to shoot that man bears a part of responsibility for the mistake they made. It was probably a mistake, they probably didn't intend to kill a innocent, nonetheless they did, and should be accountable for this homicide. Mark Merrens wrote: It may, however, mean that the person who took the decision (for whatever reason) to allow the trigger to be pulled is responsible and should shoulder that responsibility Yes, this person is also IMO the main one who should shoulder that responsibility. However, I also think the shooter was part of the process. Mark Merrens wrote: bear in mind the circumstances surrounding the days events and that all of us, all of us, make mistakes I do! Let's take another example: A plane pilot makes a mistake, the plane crashes, everybody get killed. Because it is a mistake, does that mean that no one is responsible, and the families shouldn't get a compensation?
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I can't say you're wrong in any of the points you make. I do feel that some of the posters are a being a little harsh in their judgements of the police. And of course I agree that where a mistake is made the perpetrator of that mistake should be big enough to hold their hands up and admit to it. Sadly, in real life, that does not (usually) happen. And with your final example I do agree but would point out that no amount of copensation can ever make up for the loss of a loved one, especially a child.
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K(arl) wrote: You can't apologize the men who pulled the triggers that easily. Tey aren't irresponsible people, or then prepare to be killed in the name of the so-called war on Terrorism. Please rephrase this: your meaning isn't clear. K(arl) wrote: It doesn't mean you aren't accountable for the mistakes you make. It may, however, mean that the person who took the decision (for whatever reason) to allow the trigger to be pulled is responsible and should shoulder that responsibility. I'm pretty sure that the man who actually pulled the trigger (and all of the police involved that day) must be feeling terrible remorse but, given the conditions and context, made the right decision at that moment in time. It is easy with hindsight to castigate all of the participants in this tragedy but bear in mind the circumstances surrounding the days events and that all of us, all of us, make mistakes.
Mark Merrens wrote: It may, however, mean that the person who took the decision (for whatever reason) to allow the trigger to be pulled is responsible and should shoulder that responsibility. I'm pretty sure that the man who actually pulled the trigger (and all of the police involved that day) must be feeling terrible remorse but, given the conditions and context, made the right decision at that moment in time. I agree. 5. Blaming the shooter would be idiotic, given what has been leaked today.
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fat_boy wrote: theyt are lazy f***kers. They are also thugs. I happen to know this as my wife was a cop for 5 years Which, by your usual twisted logic, makes her a thug and a lazy fucker right? You seem to have this knack of tarring entire groups of people with the same brush. Pathetic. The police do a (mostly) thankless job for fucking peanuts.
Yeah, she has thuggish tendencies, but as a copper, she was one of the rare ones who actually solved petty crime cases. The police get no thanks because they dont do their job. They just pick on motorists and drunk kids hanging around town centers. And as for their pay being peanuts, that is cock. Since these people are mostly un qualified, or ex-army, they actually get a good pay considering their level of inteligence. Any one with a degree will get fast tracked up to sargent within two years and will be on 35k sterling. Nunc est bibendum!
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What cock. If he was so suspicious he needed shooting if he ran, why the fuck didnt the police stop him on the street way before he got to any where crowded? The police are fucking idiots. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: What cock. If he was so suspicious he needed shooting if he ran, why the f*** didnt the police stop him on the street way before he got to any where crowded? The police are f***ing idiots. Riiiight, f***ing idiots. They were watching the house to try and get information about the activities of terrorists, for Christ's sake. They started trailing a suspect who could have led them to the ringleader, or to a meeting of suicide bombers, or to who knows what information. Taking him out as soon as he left the front door would have alerted everyone in the house, and they would have immediately alerted all their associates that they were being watched. That would have been really smart. The Police aren't just trying to prevent an attack, they are trying to collect enough information to convict the potential bombers, and to lead them to their associates, ringleaders, funders, leaders etc. If you're trailing a suspect, you don't take them out right away, you try to get as much information from them as possible while they don't think they're being watched first. "f***ing idiots" Jeez.....
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Like I said, I cant see why they didnt stop him in the street way before he got to the tube. That decision was sheer stupidity. I've had police lie in court and cause me to get points and fines. OK, here you go, your car gets broken into. One WPC comes round, if you are lucky, and takes a statement. Fuck all happens. You get stopped without road tax, its a month out, and you have one special, one normal cop, a traffic car with a copper in it, and a panda with a copper for half an hour. Its hapened to me. I personally think our police are useless, they just pick on the motorist because it is an easy life and theyt are lazy fuckkers. They are also thugs. If they werent in uniform they would be behind bars. I happen to know this as my wife was a cop for 5 years and I went to a lot of police social events. Nunc est bibendum!
Look, I've also had a couple of 'experiences' with the police but I won't be pushed to think they are all bad because 1 or 2 may be. And I wish you were not quite so quick to judge; especially as you say your wife was in the force. You display a singular lack of tolerance with your remarks. Shame.
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Sorry, but in this case, you're wrong. According to the leaked report they had explicit orders to shoot to kill. Whoever gave that order needs to be punished. If the officers who pulled the trigger are held responsible, then you can kiss any armed police presence in London goodbye - the others would down their weapons and hand in their cards.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: According to the leaked report they had explicit orders to shoot to kill. Whoever gave that order needs to be punished. If the officers who pulled the trigger are held responsible, then you can kiss any armed police presence in London goodbye - the others would down their weapons and hand in their cards. And the terrorists will have free rein to run wild in London, safe and sound in the knowledge that the Police aren't armed. That would make me feel MUCH safer. Whoever gave the order to shoot to kill was absolutely justified and should be supported for having the courage to make that decision. Are we trying to protect the general population or the terrorists here?
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Like I said, I cant see why they didnt stop him in the street way before he got to the tube. That decision was sheer stupidity. I've had police lie in court and cause me to get points and fines. OK, here you go, your car gets broken into. One WPC comes round, if you are lucky, and takes a statement. Fuck all happens. You get stopped without road tax, its a month out, and you have one special, one normal cop, a traffic car with a copper in it, and a panda with a copper for half an hour. Its hapened to me. I personally think our police are useless, they just pick on the motorist because it is an easy life and theyt are lazy fuckkers. They are also thugs. If they werent in uniform they would be behind bars. I happen to know this as my wife was a cop for 5 years and I went to a lot of police social events. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: Its hapened to me. I personally think our police are useless, they just pick on the motorist because it is an easy life and theyt are lazy f***kers. They are also thugs. If they werent in uniform they would be behind bars. Don't forget that the role of the police is to protect the law. Politicians make laws, so if the police are spending a lot of time chasing motorists, it's largely because of the emphasis politicians have placed on speeding, because it's an emotive headline subject with deaths blamed on it. If you want to complain about the jobs the police are doing, lean on your MP or vote Monster Raving Loony Party. Oh, sorry, I forgot, they are already in power.
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Sorry, but in this case, you're wrong. According to the leaked report they had explicit orders to shoot to kill. Whoever gave that order needs to be punished. If the officers who pulled the trigger are held responsible, then you can kiss any armed police presence in London goodbye - the others would down their weapons and hand in their cards.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Whoever gave that order needs to be punished I totally agree, but IMHO the shooters should be put in trial too, not with the same degree of responsability of course, even if they should be declared not guilty or be symbolically condemned. A weapon holder has to be responsible for the use (s)he mades of it, (s)he isn't a mindless robot.
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Whoever gave that order needs to be punished I totally agree, but IMHO the shooters should be put in trial too, not with the same degree of responsability of course, even if they should be declared not guilty or be symbolically condemned. A weapon holder has to be responsible for the use (s)he mades of it, (s)he isn't a mindless robot.
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Sorry, but you won't convince me Karl - not in this specific case. Dragging an officer through the courts for this would a terrible error and would basically tell every other armed officer in the UK that they have no backup and no support from above. There are such things as rules of engagement - and on that day, the rule was "shoot to kill". This is not a Nazi soldier being ordered to shoot people he KNOWS are innocent - this was a someone shooting a man who he believed (thanks to crap intel) was one of the London bombers.
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I can't say you're wrong in any of the points you make. I do feel that some of the posters are a being a little harsh in their judgements of the police. And of course I agree that where a mistake is made the perpetrator of that mistake should be big enough to hold their hands up and admit to it. Sadly, in real life, that does not (usually) happen. And with your final example I do agree but would point out that no amount of copensation can ever make up for the loss of a loved one, especially a child.
Agreed on everything. Mark Merrens wrote: I do feel that some of the posters are a being a little harsh in their judgements of the police. IMHO, people may be more shocked by the cover-up of the story than by the mistake which was made.
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