London shooting
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Two, sad, things to raise: 1. When you are hunting a dangerous animal, you don't injure it, you kill it. A cornered animal has nothing to lose and an injured cornered animal knows he is about to lose everything. 2. Stun rounds are not very effective, and give the non-lethality of them they tend to be used with less due consideration - resulting in more people being injured, and in some cases very painful fatalities. Normal armed police units do not shoot to kill, even when faced with a direct threat (i.e. someone shooting at them). The police in this case used a shoot-to-kill policy because the people they were hunting had no desire to live. That is a very important difference, that needs consideration.
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David Wulff wrote: Normal armed police units do not shoot to kill No one "shoots to kill." No one "shoots to injure" either. You shoot to stop the threat and you aim center mass while doing it. When your body floods with adrenaline during a high stress situation like that, you lose fine motor control, so you aim for the largest target (the chest). Jeff Martin My Blog
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22? No, I'm 21. If you double click on that clock in the bottom right of your screen you will bring up a calendar which helps with working out complicated things like dates, or years. fat_boy wrote: Wait around sonny, you'll see what I mean. I've got some bad news for you grandpa, I've been involved in the policing of my local community for many years now, so I am well aware of the issues, the schemes, the offenders, and how it all works. Thanks for your concern though - it means a lot. :rose:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
David Wulff wrote: I've been involved in the policing of my local community for many years now Which side were you on? :suss: :-D
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How about the bolloxed up investigations into all the other police shootings? When do you start to feel your trust is misplaced? 'we asked those people to stand forward and take on the responsibilities of all of us' Bollocks, an ex-squaddie or other person of limited inteligence wants a steady job with a pension. He isnt capable of much so he joins the force. Either that or he is a power hungry sadist, and yes, I've met a few coppers like that in my youth too, and wants the job for emotional reasons, like he enjoys shitting on people. I'll tell you what, go down to torquay nick and ask them why they joined. I'll give you a handfull of names too. Dont forget, I know these poeple socially! Ha! we asked them to take on our responsibilites! what a crock of shit. How did you get to be so naive? Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: all the other police shootings All the other police shootings? There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years. Harry Stanley and Jean Charles de Menezes. De Menezes's investigation outcome is not known yet, and Stanley's two investigations have both been quashed - it is also still ongoing. All others have been proven correct. fat_boy wrote: Bollocks, an ex-squaddie or other person of limited inteligence wants a steady job with a pension. He isnt capable of much so he joins the force. You are confused - I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street, I was talking about the men at the top (the Minister for Defence and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, respectively). With great power comes great responsibility. I forget who said that. fat_boy wrote: Ha! we asked them to take on our responsibilites! what a crock of sh*t. How did you get to be so naive? How do you get so incredibly good at completely ignoring the content of every post you respond to?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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You forget, I live in the heart of Devon, hunting is much a part of life round here as breathing is. For many years in my childhood I lived in a village called Kenn, my family owned the local pub there, and there would be hunting parties in there almost daily. It was there that I first learned to handle a rifle, though I couldn't tell much more about it now. Nowadays I prefer to hunt people[^]. fat_boy wrote: The paras used to put A batteries in their SLRs in stead of the ruber bullets. They found them nore effective. Uhuh, and? fat_boy wrote: Cock, they use semi jacketed, or hollow nose bullets. Not the standard ARUs.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
David Wulff wrote: hunt people[^]. Awesome collection, can I come visit? Jeff Martin My Blog
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David Wulff wrote: I've been involved in the policing of my local community for many years now Which side were you on? :suss: :-D
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At times, both. :-O I have no lasting criminal record or anything like that, and I only strayed a little bit. I dread to think where I might be now had I not had to face that when I did, so I owe a lot of thanks to both the police and my teachers for helping me take responsibility for my actions fairly early on into my adolescence. Since then it has all been on the good side though, I promise. :)
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Yes, I agree. That is precisely what I am saying John, the only thing wrong with your statement is the very first sentance. What is happening here right not is not the police force being subject to civilian control, it is a public, sensationalist witch hunt, to make a bunch of scared people in the cities feel better about themselves. Untill the next strike. The IPCC investigation must be allowed to complete unhindered and unswayed by public opinion, otherwise it is nothing more than a clown show.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
David Wulff wrote: The IPCC investigation must be allowed to complete unhindered and unswayed by public opinion, otherwise it is nothing more than a clown show. I agree (and have argued all along) that these matters must be properly investigated by the relevant authorities and we should not be making judgements (in either direction) based on unverified claims published by the media. I disagree with your apparent view that (real or imagined) threats of police strikes should influence how the police involved in the shooting are dealt with. The police must be subject to the law like anyone else, and if they resist this (with strikes or otherwise), they are not fit to be police officers. John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
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David Wulff wrote: hunt people[^]. Awesome collection, can I come visit? Jeff Martin My Blog
Only if you make sure you aren't followed. :suss:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Stan Shannon wrote: our civilization Our "civilization"? Come on, everybody knows that America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
where is this f*cking helmet when I need it?
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We read all about the glories of civilization from Europeans, and opted to give it a miss. ;P BW
Meanwhile, behind the facade of this innocent looking bookstore...
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David Wulff wrote: The IPCC investigation must be allowed to complete unhindered and unswayed by public opinion, otherwise it is nothing more than a clown show. I agree (and have argued all along) that these matters must be properly investigated by the relevant authorities and we should not be making judgements (in either direction) based on unverified claims published by the media. I disagree with your apparent view that (real or imagined) threats of police strikes should influence how the police involved in the shooting are dealt with. The police must be subject to the law like anyone else, and if they resist this (with strikes or otherwise), they are not fit to be police officers. John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
John Carson wrote: I disagree with your apparent view that (real or imagined) threats of police strikes should influence how the police involved in the shooting are dealt with I didn't mean to imply that that should be a reason for consideration, simply that it would be a likely reaction. After officers where charged in the fatal shooting of Mr. Stanley for carrying a table leg members of the Met's armed force handed in their weapons stating that they were unable to perform the roles they were employed to carry out. A fair and logicial conclusion, and one I would expect to see carried out again on a larger scale.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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David Wulff wrote: Would you take a job where the guaranteed reaction to you carrying out your role would be jail time? I wouldn't. Don't compare the UK armed police units with other countries' police forces. We don't arm our cops on the streets, we only have the equivalent of S.W.A.T., and we set our benchmarks very high to keep wankers out of them. I guess, sadly I might add, that you condone their action of executing an innocent man? "Art doesn't want to be familiar. It wants to astonish us. Or, in some cases, to enrage us. It wants to move us. To touch us. Not accommodate us, make us comfortable." -- Jamake Highwater Toasty0.com My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote: I guess, sadly I might add, that you condone their action of executing an innocent man? I guess, not surprisingly I might add, that you did not read this: http://www.codeproject.com/script/comments/forums.asp?msg=1198824&forumid=2605#xx1198824xx[^]
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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You forget, I live in the heart of Devon, hunting is much a part of life round here as breathing is. For many years in my childhood I lived in a village called Kenn, my family owned the local pub there, and there would be hunting parties in there almost daily. It was there that I first learned to handle a rifle, though I couldn't tell much more about it now. Nowadays I prefer to hunt people[^]. fat_boy wrote: The paras used to put A batteries in their SLRs in stead of the ruber bullets. They found them nore effective. Uhuh, and? fat_boy wrote: Cock, they use semi jacketed, or hollow nose bullets. Not the standard ARUs.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
'hunting is much a part of life round here as breathing is' That is an exageration. I know nore people with wetsuits than hunting rifles and I'm not going to say surfing is as much a part of life as breathing. Did your daya have the dodgy fingers? I recall one of the owners of the pub did. 'Uhuh, and' FYI Re expanding/softnosed/hollow point/dum dum ammo, look at this link and scroll to the photo for the story !missing police bullets found". You can clearly see it is a dum dum. The only reason you use this kind of ammo is to kill cleanly, that is why it is mandated for deer shooting. Nunc est bibendum!
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We read all about the glories of civilization from Europeans, and opted to give it a miss. ;P BW
Meanwhile, behind the facade of this innocent looking bookstore...
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22? No, I'm 21. If you double click on that clock in the bottom right of your screen you will bring up a calendar which helps with working out complicated things like dates, or years. fat_boy wrote: Wait around sonny, you'll see what I mean. I've got some bad news for you grandpa, I've been involved in the policing of my local community for many years now, so I am well aware of the issues, the schemes, the offenders, and how it all works. Thanks for your concern though - it means a lot. :rose:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote: an atypical Wulff post Wow, I have benchmarks?! :~ But as John said, although I feel he probably mentioned it for the wrong reasons, I am completely for trusting the police to handle the situations we require them to until any investigations have proven that that trust would be misplaced. The investigation into this shooting has not concoluded yet, and as of yesterday has been set back because the media can't waste a good controversy. We, as members of our respective societies, have to accept the responsibility of the people we employ to protect us, because we are every bit as responsable as they are for what they do. Whether it is a soldier fighting in Iraq, a politician sitting in Westminster, or a policeman trying to protect his community at home, we asked those people to stand forward and take on the responsibilities of all of us, and we should not blindly run away from that whenever something we don't like has happened. Do you think I am happy or pleased that Mr. Menezes is dead? Or that my countries defensive forces are currently involved in overthrowing foreign governments? I'm not, at all, but is not the fault of the policemen or the soldiers. We employ people to stand at the top, whether they are the heads of police forces or members of parliament, and we pay them vast sums of money to unload our responsibilities on them. When something goes wrong, we learn from those mistakes, we trust those people to apply that learning, and if they don't or can't or were negligent in any way we take their heads and we display them on the walls of the London Tower for the ravens to pick at.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
Though in no small way I agree with what you are saying, I still believe that one officer and one officer only is directly responsible--he choose to pump 7 bullets into a man who had not been convicted of any crime and was in fact in custody and not even remotely a threat to anyone. "Art doesn't want to be familiar. It wants to astonish us. Or, in some cases, to enrage us. It wants to move us. To touch us. Not accommodate us, make us comfortable." -- Jamake Highwater Toasty0.com My Grandkids
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fat_boy wrote: all the other police shootings All the other police shootings? There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years. Harry Stanley and Jean Charles de Menezes. De Menezes's investigation outcome is not known yet, and Stanley's two investigations have both been quashed - it is also still ongoing. All others have been proven correct. fat_boy wrote: Bollocks, an ex-squaddie or other person of limited inteligence wants a steady job with a pension. He isnt capable of much so he joins the force. You are confused - I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street, I was talking about the men at the top (the Minister for Defence and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, respectively). With great power comes great responsibility. I forget who said that. fat_boy wrote: Ha! we asked them to take on our responsibilites! what a crock of sh*t. How did you get to be so naive? How do you get so incredibly good at completely ignoring the content of every post you respond to?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years 'I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street' Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. 'I forget who said that' Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! Nunc est bibendum!
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fat_boy wrote: all the other police shootings All the other police shootings? There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years. Harry Stanley and Jean Charles de Menezes. De Menezes's investigation outcome is not known yet, and Stanley's two investigations have both been quashed - it is also still ongoing. All others have been proven correct. fat_boy wrote: Bollocks, an ex-squaddie or other person of limited inteligence wants a steady job with a pension. He isnt capable of much so he joins the force. You are confused - I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street, I was talking about the men at the top (the Minister for Defence and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, respectively). With great power comes great responsibility. I forget who said that. fat_boy wrote: Ha! we asked them to take on our responsibilites! what a crock of sh*t. How did you get to be so naive? How do you get so incredibly good at completely ignoring the content of every post you respond to?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years Thank fuck there aren't more armed ploice then. So how many un mistaken fatal shotings have there been. (And I want reliable sources prooved on both these figures) 'I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street' Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. 'I forget who said that' Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! Nunc est bibendum!
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'hunting is much a part of life round here as breathing is' That is an exageration. I know nore people with wetsuits than hunting rifles and I'm not going to say surfing is as much a part of life as breathing. Did your daya have the dodgy fingers? I recall one of the owners of the pub did. 'Uhuh, and' FYI Re expanding/softnosed/hollow point/dum dum ammo, look at this link and scroll to the photo for the story !missing police bullets found". You can clearly see it is a dum dum. The only reason you use this kind of ammo is to kill cleanly, that is why it is mandated for deer shooting. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: That is an exageration. I know nore people with wetsuits than hunting rifles and I'm not going to say surfing is as much a part of life as breathing. There are not many wet suits here in the farming heart of Devon. It's rare that local people will stray over to the next town, let along the hours drive to the coast. fat_boy wrote: Did your daya have the dodgy fingers? Daya? Father? Dodgy fingers? If you explain on that a little bit more I can try and understand. :~ fat_boy wrote: Re expanding/softnosed/hollow point/dum dum ammo, look at this link and scroll to the photo for the story !missing police bullets found". You can clearly see it is a dum dum. What link? (you forgot to post it)
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years 'I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street' Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. 'I forget who said that' Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years Yes I know, I said so, but why did you quote it and make no comment? fat_boy wrote: Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. If you continue in context, you will find I also say that "we employ people to stand at the top, whether they are the heads of police forces or members of parliament, and we pay them vast sums of money to unload our responsibilities on them". The utlimate responsibility stops with them, you were suggesting it falls on the individual soldiers and police officers, hence my reply. fat_boy wrote: Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! No, it was Uncle Ben to Peter Parker in Spiderman the movie.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years Thank fuck there aren't more armed ploice then. So how many un mistaken fatal shotings have there been. (And I want reliable sources prooved on both these figures) 'I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street' Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. 'I forget who said that' Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: So how many un mistaken fatal shotings have there been None. You waive your right to be considered msitaken when you break the law in a violent way that justifies the use of lethal force to prevent you causing harm to others. fat_boy wrote: And I want reliable sources prooved on both these figures If it came from Sir Ian's mouth directly you wouldn't believe him, so what's the point?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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fat_boy wrote: So how many un mistaken fatal shotings have there been None. You waive your right to be considered msitaken when you break the law in a violent way that justifies the use of lethal force to prevent you causing harm to others. fat_boy wrote: And I want reliable sources prooved on both these figures If it came from Sir Ian's mouth directly you wouldn't believe him, so what's the point?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
