London shooting
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote: an atypical Wulff post Wow, I have benchmarks?! :~ But as John said, although I feel he probably mentioned it for the wrong reasons, I am completely for trusting the police to handle the situations we require them to until any investigations have proven that that trust would be misplaced. The investigation into this shooting has not concoluded yet, and as of yesterday has been set back because the media can't waste a good controversy. We, as members of our respective societies, have to accept the responsibility of the people we employ to protect us, because we are every bit as responsable as they are for what they do. Whether it is a soldier fighting in Iraq, a politician sitting in Westminster, or a policeman trying to protect his community at home, we asked those people to stand forward and take on the responsibilities of all of us, and we should not blindly run away from that whenever something we don't like has happened. Do you think I am happy or pleased that Mr. Menezes is dead? Or that my countries defensive forces are currently involved in overthrowing foreign governments? I'm not, at all, but is not the fault of the policemen or the soldiers. We employ people to stand at the top, whether they are the heads of police forces or members of parliament, and we pay them vast sums of money to unload our responsibilities on them. When something goes wrong, we learn from those mistakes, we trust those people to apply that learning, and if they don't or can't or were negligent in any way we take their heads and we display them on the walls of the London Tower for the ravens to pick at.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
Though in no small way I agree with what you are saying, I still believe that one officer and one officer only is directly responsible--he choose to pump 7 bullets into a man who had not been convicted of any crime and was in fact in custody and not even remotely a threat to anyone. "Art doesn't want to be familiar. It wants to astonish us. Or, in some cases, to enrage us. It wants to move us. To touch us. Not accommodate us, make us comfortable." -- Jamake Highwater Toasty0.com My Grandkids
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fat_boy wrote: all the other police shootings All the other police shootings? There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years. Harry Stanley and Jean Charles de Menezes. De Menezes's investigation outcome is not known yet, and Stanley's two investigations have both been quashed - it is also still ongoing. All others have been proven correct. fat_boy wrote: Bollocks, an ex-squaddie or other person of limited inteligence wants a steady job with a pension. He isnt capable of much so he joins the force. You are confused - I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street, I was talking about the men at the top (the Minister for Defence and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, respectively). With great power comes great responsibility. I forget who said that. fat_boy wrote: Ha! we asked them to take on our responsibilites! what a crock of sh*t. How did you get to be so naive? How do you get so incredibly good at completely ignoring the content of every post you respond to?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years 'I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street' Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. 'I forget who said that' Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! Nunc est bibendum!
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fat_boy wrote: all the other police shootings All the other police shootings? There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years. Harry Stanley and Jean Charles de Menezes. De Menezes's investigation outcome is not known yet, and Stanley's two investigations have both been quashed - it is also still ongoing. All others have been proven correct. fat_boy wrote: Bollocks, an ex-squaddie or other person of limited inteligence wants a steady job with a pension. He isnt capable of much so he joins the force. You are confused - I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street, I was talking about the men at the top (the Minister for Defence and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, respectively). With great power comes great responsibility. I forget who said that. fat_boy wrote: Ha! we asked them to take on our responsibilites! what a crock of sh*t. How did you get to be so naive? How do you get so incredibly good at completely ignoring the content of every post you respond to?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years Thank fuck there aren't more armed ploice then. So how many un mistaken fatal shotings have there been. (And I want reliable sources prooved on both these figures) 'I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street' Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. 'I forget who said that' Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! Nunc est bibendum!
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'hunting is much a part of life round here as breathing is' That is an exageration. I know nore people with wetsuits than hunting rifles and I'm not going to say surfing is as much a part of life as breathing. Did your daya have the dodgy fingers? I recall one of the owners of the pub did. 'Uhuh, and' FYI Re expanding/softnosed/hollow point/dum dum ammo, look at this link and scroll to the photo for the story !missing police bullets found". You can clearly see it is a dum dum. The only reason you use this kind of ammo is to kill cleanly, that is why it is mandated for deer shooting. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: That is an exageration. I know nore people with wetsuits than hunting rifles and I'm not going to say surfing is as much a part of life as breathing. There are not many wet suits here in the farming heart of Devon. It's rare that local people will stray over to the next town, let along the hours drive to the coast. fat_boy wrote: Did your daya have the dodgy fingers? Daya? Father? Dodgy fingers? If you explain on that a little bit more I can try and understand. :~ fat_boy wrote: Re expanding/softnosed/hollow point/dum dum ammo, look at this link and scroll to the photo for the story !missing police bullets found". You can clearly see it is a dum dum. What link? (you forgot to post it)
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years 'I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street' Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. 'I forget who said that' Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years Yes I know, I said so, but why did you quote it and make no comment? fat_boy wrote: Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. If you continue in context, you will find I also say that "we employ people to stand at the top, whether they are the heads of police forces or members of parliament, and we pay them vast sums of money to unload our responsibilities on them". The utlimate responsibility stops with them, you were suggesting it falls on the individual soldiers and police officers, hence my reply. fat_boy wrote: Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! No, it was Uncle Ben to Peter Parker in Spiderman the movie.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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There have been two fatal and mistaken shootings by amred police officers in the last ten years Thank fuck there aren't more armed ploice then. So how many un mistaken fatal shotings have there been. (And I want reliable sources prooved on both these figures) 'I was not talking about the soldiers, or the police officers on the street' Yes you were, you wrote 'soldier in Iraq' and 'policeman trying to protect his community at home'. 'I forget who said that' Wasnt you was it? You just forgot what you posted half an hour ago! Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: So how many un mistaken fatal shotings have there been None. You waive your right to be considered msitaken when you break the law in a violent way that justifies the use of lethal force to prevent you causing harm to others. fat_boy wrote: And I want reliable sources prooved on both these figures If it came from Sir Ian's mouth directly you wouldn't believe him, so what's the point?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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fat_boy wrote: So how many un mistaken fatal shotings have there been None. You waive your right to be considered msitaken when you break the law in a violent way that justifies the use of lethal force to prevent you causing harm to others. fat_boy wrote: And I want reliable sources prooved on both these figures If it came from Sir Ian's mouth directly you wouldn't believe him, so what's the point?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Did you what I wrote? I have my doubts.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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David Wulff wrote: Like you, a big part of me wants the police officers involved in this case to be sent to prison for carrying out their sworn duties to protect us. That way, when every armed police unit in the country goes on strike and lays down their weapons, leading to a surge in violent and gun crime, I can take glee in The Sun publishing a full written appology for helping to bring our country into exactly what the terrorists want it to become. Wow! Powerful statement. I wish I had said it. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
It's alright, I won't tell anyone if you won't?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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fat_boy wrote: That is an exageration. I know nore people with wetsuits than hunting rifles and I'm not going to say surfing is as much a part of life as breathing. There are not many wet suits here in the farming heart of Devon. It's rare that local people will stray over to the next town, let along the hours drive to the coast. fat_boy wrote: Did your daya have the dodgy fingers? Daya? Father? Dodgy fingers? If you explain on that a little bit more I can try and understand. :~ fat_boy wrote: Re expanding/softnosed/hollow point/dum dum ammo, look at this link and scroll to the photo for the story !missing police bullets found". You can clearly see it is a dum dum. What link? (you forgot to post it)
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
Daya, meant dad. One of the owners of the pub in Kenn had 2 fingers on one hand. Here is the link:https://www4.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2005/08/320811.html[^] Scroll down to the 'missinmg police bullets found' and look at the picture. Nunc est bibendum!
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Daya, meant dad. One of the owners of the pub in Kenn had 2 fingers on one hand. Here is the link:https://www4.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2005/08/320811.html[^] Scroll down to the 'missinmg police bullets found' and look at the picture. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: One of the owners of the pub in Kenn had 2 fingers on one hand. What period are we talking about here? We had the pub (The Ley Arms) from the mid 80's to 1990, at which point our dodgy family solicitor signed the deeds over to himself and his business partner making us homeless. AFAICR there was no one there at that time with only two fingers. :~ fat_boy wrote: Here is the link Sheffield Indy Media. Right... but ok. I can't see any picture near to "Missing police bullets found" - Nottingham Evening Post - 17 January , is that the one you're referring to? [ edit ] Ah, I found it, I was searching the text for "missing police bullets found" not the graphics. There is a newspaper cutout which I assume you are referring to. There is however no reference I could see to what you spoke of?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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fat_boy wrote: One of the owners of the pub in Kenn had 2 fingers on one hand. What period are we talking about here? We had the pub (The Ley Arms) from the mid 80's to 1990, at which point our dodgy family solicitor signed the deeds over to himself and his business partner making us homeless. AFAICR there was no one there at that time with only two fingers. :~ fat_boy wrote: Here is the link Sheffield Indy Media. Right... but ok. I can't see any picture near to "Missing police bullets found" - Nottingham Evening Post - 17 January , is that the one you're referring to? [ edit ] Ah, I found it, I was searching the text for "missing police bullets found" not the graphics. There is a newspaper cutout which I assume you are referring to. There is however no reference I could see to what you spoke of?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
the guy with the dodgy fingers went on to own combe cellars after. I am sure he owned the pub in Kenn before that. Oh well. Open the link again and scroll down to the newspaper scan of the 'Missing police bullets found', the is a dirty great big picture of a round there. Nunc est bibendum!
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John Carson wrote: I disagree with your apparent view that (real or imagined) threats of police strikes should influence how the police involved in the shooting are dealt with I didn't mean to imply that that should be a reason for consideration, simply that it would be a likely reaction. After officers where charged in the fatal shooting of Mr. Stanley for carrying a table leg members of the Met's armed force handed in their weapons stating that they were unable to perform the roles they were employed to carry out. A fair and logicial conclusion, and one I would expect to see carried out again on a larger scale.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
David Wulff wrote: After officers where charged in the fatal shooting of Mr. Stanley for carrying a table leg members of the Met's armed force handed in their weapons stating that they were unable to perform the roles they were employed to carry out. A fair and logicial conclusion, and one I would expect to see carried out again on a larger scale. It seems to me that the sort of issues that arise in that case arise routinely in cases where a person has been killed and self-defence has been claimed. They arise whether or not police are involved in the incident. When police are involved, my strong impression is that they very much get the benefit of the doubt. (Police are very rarely charged, let alone convicted.) The fact that it was determined that the police had a case to answer in one particular case in no way justifies the police reaction that followed. The police involved clearly think that they shouldn't have to answer to anyone. The reaction of the police, far from being a "fair and logical conclusion", is inconsistent with the rule of law. John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
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the guy with the dodgy fingers went on to own combe cellars after. I am sure he owned the pub in Kenn before that. Oh well. Open the link again and scroll down to the newspaper scan of the 'Missing police bullets found', the is a dirty great big picture of a round there. Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: the guy with the dodgy fingers went on to own combe cellars after. I am sure he owned the pub in Kenn before that. Oh well. Sounds like it was before we went there. fat_boy wrote: Open the link again and scroll down to the newspaper scan of the 'Missing police bullets found', the is a dirty great big picture of a round there. I edited my last message shortly after posting it - I was searching the text for "missing police bullets found" not the graphics. There is a newspaper cutout which I assume you are referring to. There is however no reference I could see to what you spoke of? That photo accompanying the story, do you actualyl believe that is one of the rounds recovered? It is jsut a stock photo selected to match the story, if it was an actual round it would have been mentioned.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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David Wulff wrote: After officers where charged in the fatal shooting of Mr. Stanley for carrying a table leg members of the Met's armed force handed in their weapons stating that they were unable to perform the roles they were employed to carry out. A fair and logicial conclusion, and one I would expect to see carried out again on a larger scale. It seems to me that the sort of issues that arise in that case arise routinely in cases where a person has been killed and self-defence has been claimed. They arise whether or not police are involved in the incident. When police are involved, my strong impression is that they very much get the benefit of the doubt. (Police are very rarely charged, let alone convicted.) The fact that it was determined that the police had a case to answer in one particular case in no way justifies the police reaction that followed. The police involved clearly think that they shouldn't have to answer to anyone. The reaction of the police, far from being a "fair and logical conclusion", is inconsistent with the rule of law. John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
John Carson wrote: When police are involved, my strong impression is that they very much get the benefit of the doubt Police officers are always suspended from their duties during these investigations (either moved on to non response roles or if it is serious enough, sent home). Every officer in the country knows that the moment they pull the trigger on their weapon - whether they hit someone or not - they are putting themselves through that process.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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John Carson wrote: When police are involved, my strong impression is that they very much get the benefit of the doubt Police officers are always suspended from their duties during these investigations (either moved on to non response roles or if it is serious enough, sent home). Every officer in the country knows that the moment they pull the trigger on their weapon - whether they hit someone or not - they are putting themselves through that process.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
David Wulff wrote: Police officers are always suspended from their duties during these investigations (either moved on to non response roles or if it is serious enough, sent home). I was referring to whether or not they are charged with / convicted of a criminal offence. John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
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fakefur wrote: Actually according to the police: 1. No, the police did not say that. 2. Yes, and this 'leaked evidence' confirms that. 3. No, the police did not say that. 4. No, the police did not say that. Like I said mate, get your facts straight. All of the police conferences are in the public domain, video archives of them are available on the BBC News web site.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
Fist of all I'm not your "mate" so please stop using that term. Secondly whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same. Those in charge should be concerned with the truth coming out NOT in allowing false information be circulated as fact and NOT trying to cover up the incident by requesting to handle the investigation themselves and NOT by refusing to allow the IPCC access to the scene for 3 full days when they are usually on the scene within the hour. That to me is dishonest and I hope the chief is forced to resign and the others involved are brought to book over this. And you really need to grow up slightly in your naive attitude to the state and its machinery. Yes they are in charge and _should_ be responsible for our welfare but they have shown themselves time and time again to be incapable of such. I have a healthy mistrust of a_all_ figures in authority. Being in authority does not make you wise. It just means you can get your will implemented by the state machinery. It's called fascism when it is taken too far and totalitarianism when it gets extreme. As mentioned earlier I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say?
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Fist of all I'm not your "mate" so please stop using that term. Secondly whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same. Those in charge should be concerned with the truth coming out NOT in allowing false information be circulated as fact and NOT trying to cover up the incident by requesting to handle the investigation themselves and NOT by refusing to allow the IPCC access to the scene for 3 full days when they are usually on the scene within the hour. That to me is dishonest and I hope the chief is forced to resign and the others involved are brought to book over this. And you really need to grow up slightly in your naive attitude to the state and its machinery. Yes they are in charge and _should_ be responsible for our welfare but they have shown themselves time and time again to be incapable of such. I have a healthy mistrust of a_all_ figures in authority. Being in authority does not make you wise. It just means you can get your will implemented by the state machinery. It's called fascism when it is taken too far and totalitarianism when it gets extreme. As mentioned earlier I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say?
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fakefur wrote: Answer me this honestly: If it was your brother / mother / father / sister / son / daughter would you be saying the same things? Honestly remember. Honestly, yes. And that's closer to home than you may have thought. :| I do not appreciate, or see the point of, trying to turn this into a pesonal emotive discussion.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
I'm trying to make people realise what it actually means that this man got shot dead for nothing. If you say yes and mean it then I cannot fault you. Hypocrisy is the worst of all crimes IMHO and you claim not to be so therefore I respect your opinions. I would have to say that I'm glad I'm not in your family though. :~
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote: Cops need to be given stun-bullets that don't kill but just stun the targets. That way, such tragedies can be avoided. A close friend of mine used to be involved with 'special operations', and this sort of suggestion makes him (i) laugh and (ii) get worked up, because an injured / stunned man can still fire a gun or set off a bomb. If you are being threatened by someone with a gun or bomb, you take them out to the point where they are no longer a threat. Someone once suggested to him that if the police are confronted with an armed robber, they should "shoot the gun from his hand"! Been watching too much John Wayne...
