London shooting
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David Wulff wrote: After officers where charged in the fatal shooting of Mr. Stanley for carrying a table leg members of the Met's armed force handed in their weapons stating that they were unable to perform the roles they were employed to carry out. A fair and logicial conclusion, and one I would expect to see carried out again on a larger scale. It seems to me that the sort of issues that arise in that case arise routinely in cases where a person has been killed and self-defence has been claimed. They arise whether or not police are involved in the incident. When police are involved, my strong impression is that they very much get the benefit of the doubt. (Police are very rarely charged, let alone convicted.) The fact that it was determined that the police had a case to answer in one particular case in no way justifies the police reaction that followed. The police involved clearly think that they shouldn't have to answer to anyone. The reaction of the police, far from being a "fair and logical conclusion", is inconsistent with the rule of law. John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
John Carson wrote: When police are involved, my strong impression is that they very much get the benefit of the doubt Police officers are always suspended from their duties during these investigations (either moved on to non response roles or if it is serious enough, sent home). Every officer in the country knows that the moment they pull the trigger on their weapon - whether they hit someone or not - they are putting themselves through that process.
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John Carson wrote: When police are involved, my strong impression is that they very much get the benefit of the doubt Police officers are always suspended from their duties during these investigations (either moved on to non response roles or if it is serious enough, sent home). Every officer in the country knows that the moment they pull the trigger on their weapon - whether they hit someone or not - they are putting themselves through that process.
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David Wulff wrote: Police officers are always suspended from their duties during these investigations (either moved on to non response roles or if it is serious enough, sent home). I was referring to whether or not they are charged with / convicted of a criminal offence. John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
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fakefur wrote: Actually according to the police: 1. No, the police did not say that. 2. Yes, and this 'leaked evidence' confirms that. 3. No, the police did not say that. 4. No, the police did not say that. Like I said mate, get your facts straight. All of the police conferences are in the public domain, video archives of them are available on the BBC News web site.
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Fist of all I'm not your "mate" so please stop using that term. Secondly whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same. Those in charge should be concerned with the truth coming out NOT in allowing false information be circulated as fact and NOT trying to cover up the incident by requesting to handle the investigation themselves and NOT by refusing to allow the IPCC access to the scene for 3 full days when they are usually on the scene within the hour. That to me is dishonest and I hope the chief is forced to resign and the others involved are brought to book over this. And you really need to grow up slightly in your naive attitude to the state and its machinery. Yes they are in charge and _should_ be responsible for our welfare but they have shown themselves time and time again to be incapable of such. I have a healthy mistrust of a_all_ figures in authority. Being in authority does not make you wise. It just means you can get your will implemented by the state machinery. It's called fascism when it is taken too far and totalitarianism when it gets extreme. As mentioned earlier I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say?
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Fist of all I'm not your "mate" so please stop using that term. Secondly whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same. Those in charge should be concerned with the truth coming out NOT in allowing false information be circulated as fact and NOT trying to cover up the incident by requesting to handle the investigation themselves and NOT by refusing to allow the IPCC access to the scene for 3 full days when they are usually on the scene within the hour. That to me is dishonest and I hope the chief is forced to resign and the others involved are brought to book over this. And you really need to grow up slightly in your naive attitude to the state and its machinery. Yes they are in charge and _should_ be responsible for our welfare but they have shown themselves time and time again to be incapable of such. I have a healthy mistrust of a_all_ figures in authority. Being in authority does not make you wise. It just means you can get your will implemented by the state machinery. It's called fascism when it is taken too far and totalitarianism when it gets extreme. As mentioned earlier I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say?
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fakefur wrote: Answer me this honestly: If it was your brother / mother / father / sister / son / daughter would you be saying the same things? Honestly remember. Honestly, yes. And that's closer to home than you may have thought. :| I do not appreciate, or see the point of, trying to turn this into a pesonal emotive discussion.
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I'm trying to make people realise what it actually means that this man got shot dead for nothing. If you say yes and mean it then I cannot fault you. Hypocrisy is the worst of all crimes IMHO and you claim not to be so therefore I respect your opinions. I would have to say that I'm glad I'm not in your family though. :~
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote: Cops need to be given stun-bullets that don't kill but just stun the targets. That way, such tragedies can be avoided. A close friend of mine used to be involved with 'special operations', and this sort of suggestion makes him (i) laugh and (ii) get worked up, because an injured / stunned man can still fire a gun or set off a bomb. If you are being threatened by someone with a gun or bomb, you take them out to the point where they are no longer a threat. Someone once suggested to him that if the police are confronted with an armed robber, they should "shoot the gun from his hand"! Been watching too much John Wayne...
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You forget, I live in the heart of Devon, hunting is much a part of life round here as breathing is. For many years in my childhood I lived in a village called Kenn, my family owned the local pub there, and there would be hunting parties in there almost daily. It was there that I first learned to handle a rifle, though I couldn't tell much more about it now. Nowadays I prefer to hunt people[^]. fat_boy wrote: The paras used to put A batteries in their SLRs in stead of the ruber bullets. They found them nore effective. Uhuh, and? fat_boy wrote: Cock, they use semi jacketed, or hollow nose bullets. Not the standard ARUs.
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Would you take a job where the guaranteed reaction to you carrying out your role would be jail time? I wouldn't. Don't compare the UK armed police units with other countries' police forces. We don't arm our cops on the streets, we only have the equivalent of S.W.A.T., and we set our benchmarks very high to keep wankers out of them.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Look, lets put aside the insults and crap and get serious for a moment. I have always had a somewhat pragmatic view of life and however much I desire peace and good will to all people (and I really do) reality has a mean and nasty way of popping up at the most innoportune moments. Nobody wants the police to ever have to use guns. And everyone is horrified (or should be) by what happened to that poor young man. The reality is that there are some people out in the world who have a desire, for whatever reason, to harm other people. And the first and last line of defence is the police. Now I'm willing to bet that not every copper is bent or full of rage or a complete nutter with a homicidal desire to kill men who look asian. And I'm also willing to bet that this won't be the last mistake. And of course I don't want it to be me or anyone I know. But it might be. And I just have to accept, sadly, the reality of the utterly random, cold nature of life. I don't take it perosnally and I certainly don't spend any time (other than now) thinking about it. I just see that as being pragmatic: there is simply no point in getting angry at the police as a group when it may have been a simple (but deadly) mistake by one person. Yes, they should probably face some action but we should not allow emotion to dictate that action. And we must not allow ourselves to be led by the press. Their motives are to sell papers, not to disseminate reality, so they'll print whatever sells papers to their target audience. If I'm wrong, so be it. But at least I'm never under any illusions as to what life is and what it holds. Oh and just in case you're wondering I'm actually a pretty happy chappie... most of the time!
Stoopid signatures...
I didn't get mad at the police as a whole. I said quite clearly if you read things through that the people involved should be investigated and charged if found to be outside of the law. Which I happen to think they are. That is not condeming the whole police force. Just the incompetent ones.
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fakefur wrote: Thank you. I am very emotional about this incident as I have friends who are Italian and Spanish who live in that area. All are "dark skinned" and could have been the ones shot so it hit home very personally. The cover-up makes matters just far worse. It appears now too that the police chief asked the government if the police could handle the investigation into the shooting themselves. Thankfully they were told no. I am surprised that everyone's 1-voting your post. You seem to be making very valid points in my opinion.
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David Wulff wrote: Police officers are always suspended from their duties during these investigations (either moved on to non response roles or if it is serious enough, sent home). I was referring to whether or not they are charged with / convicted of a criminal offence. John Carson "The English language, complete with irony, satire, and sarcasm, has survived for centuries wihout smileys. Only the new crop of modern computer geeks finds it impossible to detect a joke that is not Clearly Labelled as such." Ray Shea
That will, if required, come in due course. We have only had two mistaken fatal shootings in the UK in the past decade, so prosecutions are understandably going to be rare, but in the case of Mr. Stanley the officers where charged (though later overturned, IMO rightly based on the information they were given).
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Very high. High enough to kill innocent people by mistake and get away with it. That's very high.
Who has said anyone has got away with anything? The investigation is ongoing, if necessary charges will be made against people responsible for making mistakes. Clueless kneejerk reactions like yours are totally uncalled for. To put things into persepective, our armed police units have made 2 mistakes in 10 years. Given all the armed response callouts over that same period that is a success rate of approximately 14998 for 2 failures. I can't work out the percentage there, but I would say that yes, that is very high.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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I'm trying to make people realise what it actually means that this man got shot dead for nothing. If you say yes and mean it then I cannot fault you. Hypocrisy is the worst of all crimes IMHO and you claim not to be so therefore I respect your opinions. I would have to say that I'm glad I'm not in your family though. :~
fakefur wrote: I'm trying to make people realise what it actually means that this man got shot dead for nothing. I don't think anyone doesn't realise what it means that this man was killed by mistake, not even Stan. How about realising what it actually means for the other people involved though? fakefur wrote: I would have to say that I'm glad I'm not in your family though. Well that's for you to decide. I am able to accept that mistakes happen, and would rather lessons are learnt for the future than revenge taken for the past.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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fakefur wrote: I'm trying to make people realise what it actually means that this man got shot dead for nothing. I don't think anyone doesn't realise what it means that this man was killed by mistake, not even Stan. How about realising what it actually means for the other people involved though? fakefur wrote: I would have to say that I'm glad I'm not in your family though. Well that's for you to decide. I am able to accept that mistakes happen, and would rather lessons are learnt for the future than revenge taken for the past.
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It's not revenge anybody is after here David. It's justice. It's accountability to the democratic process. I didn't see the declaration of a police state in the UK therefore they still have to answer to democratic process. I would like to think the officer involved is feeling bad but honestly knowing what I do about the police there and the fact that he pumped 11 bullets into someone makes me wonder if he does.
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Who has said anyone has got away with anything? The investigation is ongoing, if necessary charges will be made against people responsible for making mistakes. Clueless kneejerk reactions like yours are totally uncalled for. To put things into persepective, our armed police units have made 2 mistakes in 10 years. Given all the armed response callouts over that same period that is a success rate of approximately 14998 for 2 failures. I can't work out the percentage there, but I would say that yes, that is very high.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
Ummm go read the op ed piece in the Guardian. Many deaths in police custody that they have never answered for. I'm sure the relatives don't really care if they were shot or suffocated or kicked to death by the police. You see the problem is that the police have increasingly become a political instrument of the state. That is where I get worried.
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Yes, I agree. That is precisely what I am saying John, the only thing wrong with your statement is the very first sentance. What is happening here right not is not the police force being subject to civilian control, it is a public, sensationalist witch hunt, to make a bunch of scared people in the cities feel better about themselves. Untill the next strike. The IPCC investigation must be allowed to complete unhindered and unswayed by public opinion, otherwise it is nothing more than a clown show.
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fakefur wrote: 1. If I do not agree 100% with your point of view it does not follow that I 100% agree with the opposite point of view. Then say so in a less strident manner and no one will be misled. fakefur wrote: 2. You seem to think by questioning the shooting of the man on the tube train I support Osama Bin Laden and think we should all be blown up. Where you get that from I can only try to imagine I have no idea what goes on in your head: I can only infer your position from what you write. fakefur wrote: 3. If I wanted to insult you personally I could do a way better job. Highly doubtful: you do not possess the linguistic artistry required to properly put someone down without need to resort to crass insults.
Stoopid signatures...
As I suspected. You have nothing worth saying and just like to jump in and air your opinions to hear the sound of your own voice. Your semantic games tire me intensly and I will refrain from responding to you in future unless you actually make some point.
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Fist of all I'm not your "mate" so please stop using that term. Secondly whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same. Those in charge should be concerned with the truth coming out NOT in allowing false information be circulated as fact and NOT trying to cover up the incident by requesting to handle the investigation themselves and NOT by refusing to allow the IPCC access to the scene for 3 full days when they are usually on the scene within the hour. That to me is dishonest and I hope the chief is forced to resign and the others involved are brought to book over this. And you really need to grow up slightly in your naive attitude to the state and its machinery. Yes they are in charge and _should_ be responsible for our welfare but they have shown themselves time and time again to be incapable of such. I have a healthy mistrust of a_all_ figures in authority. Being in authority does not make you wise. It just means you can get your will implemented by the state machinery. It's called fascism when it is taken too far and totalitarianism when it gets extreme. As mentioned earlier I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say?
Anonymous wrote: whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same No, it is not the same *at all*, and that is where your problem lies. There is an IPCC investigation, pending a possible ciminal investigation, if the police force were to comment on any aspect of the case then they would be breaking the law and no one would get a fair trial. As it is, the media has already done servere damage to Mr. Menezes case for justice, but since when has what's 'right' or 'just' ever got in the way of a newspaper headline? Two wrongs do not make a right, the police force involved is holding their ground, and quite rightly so. The force's first priority is to ensure that evidence is collected and nothing is done that would hamper their own ongoing investigations (you know... the ones to catch the people who murdered 52 Londoners). That is the reason the IPCC investigation was held up, and it has been publicly stated as the reason. At the time the name of the bomber whom they identified this man as was not publicly realised because it was critical to the investigation, hence the reason it was not made public after the shooting and hence the reason it was deliberately avoided by the comissioner. The investigation, however, was still active during that time, and the reason for holding it up was perfectly valid and legal. You want the resignation of our Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the most senior operational police officer we have, the man who has done a lot for the advancement of our police forces over the years before his appointment, a knight no less, over a newspaper headline? You really need to get your head out of your arse long enough to separate fact from you wild sensationalist fiction. Sure it's not as fun or exciting, but that's life. You can't just change things because it would make something easier for you. I find it ironic, but sadly not at all surprising, that the aftermath of this mans death at the hands of police in London is causing more disturbance in the world than the mass murder of 52 people days beforehand. Do you know why that is? I'll tell you - it is because we can point the blame finger at the police, but the terrorists are faceless. Such is the state of our society today, where it is always someone elses fault. Anonymous wrote: I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say? When I
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I was wondering where exactly you lived. In the heart of rural Devon where the local beat bobby is (I'm sure) very friendly and very unarmed. You definitely have a lot to learn about big city life.
I have lived all over the country, from nice rural Hertfordshire to Milton Keynes to East Anglia, to the slums of Exeter, the so-called capital city of the South West, and now, a market town in the middle of rural Devon. I've seen many local police forces and many different liveries. I have seen and spoken to my local ARU a number of times (a requirement as I operate imitation firearms on my property where there is a chance a member of the public will call the police). We don't have local beat bobbie anymore, they went with the railways before I was born.
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It's not revenge anybody is after here David. It's justice. It's accountability to the democratic process. I didn't see the declaration of a police state in the UK therefore they still have to answer to democratic process. I would like to think the officer involved is feeling bad but honestly knowing what I do about the police there and the fact that he pumped 11 bullets into someone makes me wonder if he does.
Anonymous wrote: It's accountability to the democratic process Such a process is taking place, it was initiated the moment the order to kill was given. Anonymous wrote: knowing what I do about the police there and the fact that he pumped 11 bullets into someone makes me wonder if he does I'm sure he is loving the friendly death threats his family is receiving, and the knowledge that with each day it is less and less likely he will get anything close to a fair democratic investigation.
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