London shooting
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Very high. High enough to kill innocent people by mistake and get away with it. That's very high.
Who has said anyone has got away with anything? The investigation is ongoing, if necessary charges will be made against people responsible for making mistakes. Clueless kneejerk reactions like yours are totally uncalled for. To put things into persepective, our armed police units have made 2 mistakes in 10 years. Given all the armed response callouts over that same period that is a success rate of approximately 14998 for 2 failures. I can't work out the percentage there, but I would say that yes, that is very high.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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I'm trying to make people realise what it actually means that this man got shot dead for nothing. If you say yes and mean it then I cannot fault you. Hypocrisy is the worst of all crimes IMHO and you claim not to be so therefore I respect your opinions. I would have to say that I'm glad I'm not in your family though. :~
fakefur wrote: I'm trying to make people realise what it actually means that this man got shot dead for nothing. I don't think anyone doesn't realise what it means that this man was killed by mistake, not even Stan. How about realising what it actually means for the other people involved though? fakefur wrote: I would have to say that I'm glad I'm not in your family though. Well that's for you to decide. I am able to accept that mistakes happen, and would rather lessons are learnt for the future than revenge taken for the past.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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fakefur wrote: I'm trying to make people realise what it actually means that this man got shot dead for nothing. I don't think anyone doesn't realise what it means that this man was killed by mistake, not even Stan. How about realising what it actually means for the other people involved though? fakefur wrote: I would have to say that I'm glad I'm not in your family though. Well that's for you to decide. I am able to accept that mistakes happen, and would rather lessons are learnt for the future than revenge taken for the past.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
It's not revenge anybody is after here David. It's justice. It's accountability to the democratic process. I didn't see the declaration of a police state in the UK therefore they still have to answer to democratic process. I would like to think the officer involved is feeling bad but honestly knowing what I do about the police there and the fact that he pumped 11 bullets into someone makes me wonder if he does.
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Who has said anyone has got away with anything? The investigation is ongoing, if necessary charges will be made against people responsible for making mistakes. Clueless kneejerk reactions like yours are totally uncalled for. To put things into persepective, our armed police units have made 2 mistakes in 10 years. Given all the armed response callouts over that same period that is a success rate of approximately 14998 for 2 failures. I can't work out the percentage there, but I would say that yes, that is very high.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
Ummm go read the op ed piece in the Guardian. Many deaths in police custody that they have never answered for. I'm sure the relatives don't really care if they were shot or suffocated or kicked to death by the police. You see the problem is that the police have increasingly become a political instrument of the state. That is where I get worried.
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Yes, I agree. That is precisely what I am saying John, the only thing wrong with your statement is the very first sentance. What is happening here right not is not the police force being subject to civilian control, it is a public, sensationalist witch hunt, to make a bunch of scared people in the cities feel better about themselves. Untill the next strike. The IPCC investigation must be allowed to complete unhindered and unswayed by public opinion, otherwise it is nothing more than a clown show.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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fakefur wrote: 1. If I do not agree 100% with your point of view it does not follow that I 100% agree with the opposite point of view. Then say so in a less strident manner and no one will be misled. fakefur wrote: 2. You seem to think by questioning the shooting of the man on the tube train I support Osama Bin Laden and think we should all be blown up. Where you get that from I can only try to imagine I have no idea what goes on in your head: I can only infer your position from what you write. fakefur wrote: 3. If I wanted to insult you personally I could do a way better job. Highly doubtful: you do not possess the linguistic artistry required to properly put someone down without need to resort to crass insults.
Stoopid signatures...
As I suspected. You have nothing worth saying and just like to jump in and air your opinions to hear the sound of your own voice. Your semantic games tire me intensly and I will refrain from responding to you in future unless you actually make some point.
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Fist of all I'm not your "mate" so please stop using that term. Secondly whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same. Those in charge should be concerned with the truth coming out NOT in allowing false information be circulated as fact and NOT trying to cover up the incident by requesting to handle the investigation themselves and NOT by refusing to allow the IPCC access to the scene for 3 full days when they are usually on the scene within the hour. That to me is dishonest and I hope the chief is forced to resign and the others involved are brought to book over this. And you really need to grow up slightly in your naive attitude to the state and its machinery. Yes they are in charge and _should_ be responsible for our welfare but they have shown themselves time and time again to be incapable of such. I have a healthy mistrust of a_all_ figures in authority. Being in authority does not make you wise. It just means you can get your will implemented by the state machinery. It's called fascism when it is taken too far and totalitarianism when it gets extreme. As mentioned earlier I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say?
Anonymous wrote: whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same No, it is not the same *at all*, and that is where your problem lies. There is an IPCC investigation, pending a possible ciminal investigation, if the police force were to comment on any aspect of the case then they would be breaking the law and no one would get a fair trial. As it is, the media has already done servere damage to Mr. Menezes case for justice, but since when has what's 'right' or 'just' ever got in the way of a newspaper headline? Two wrongs do not make a right, the police force involved is holding their ground, and quite rightly so. The force's first priority is to ensure that evidence is collected and nothing is done that would hamper their own ongoing investigations (you know... the ones to catch the people who murdered 52 Londoners). That is the reason the IPCC investigation was held up, and it has been publicly stated as the reason. At the time the name of the bomber whom they identified this man as was not publicly realised because it was critical to the investigation, hence the reason it was not made public after the shooting and hence the reason it was deliberately avoided by the comissioner. The investigation, however, was still active during that time, and the reason for holding it up was perfectly valid and legal. You want the resignation of our Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the most senior operational police officer we have, the man who has done a lot for the advancement of our police forces over the years before his appointment, a knight no less, over a newspaper headline? You really need to get your head out of your arse long enough to separate fact from you wild sensationalist fiction. Sure it's not as fun or exciting, but that's life. You can't just change things because it would make something easier for you. I find it ironic, but sadly not at all surprising, that the aftermath of this mans death at the hands of police in London is causing more disturbance in the world than the mass murder of 52 people days beforehand. Do you know why that is? I'll tell you - it is because we can point the blame finger at the police, but the terrorists are faceless. Such is the state of our society today, where it is always someone elses fault. Anonymous wrote: I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say? When I
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I was wondering where exactly you lived. In the heart of rural Devon where the local beat bobby is (I'm sure) very friendly and very unarmed. You definitely have a lot to learn about big city life.
I have lived all over the country, from nice rural Hertfordshire to Milton Keynes to East Anglia, to the slums of Exeter, the so-called capital city of the South West, and now, a market town in the middle of rural Devon. I've seen many local police forces and many different liveries. I have seen and spoken to my local ARU a number of times (a requirement as I operate imitation firearms on my property where there is a chance a member of the public will call the police). We don't have local beat bobbie anymore, they went with the railways before I was born.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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It's not revenge anybody is after here David. It's justice. It's accountability to the democratic process. I didn't see the declaration of a police state in the UK therefore they still have to answer to democratic process. I would like to think the officer involved is feeling bad but honestly knowing what I do about the police there and the fact that he pumped 11 bullets into someone makes me wonder if he does.
Anonymous wrote: It's accountability to the democratic process Such a process is taking place, it was initiated the moment the order to kill was given. Anonymous wrote: knowing what I do about the police there and the fact that he pumped 11 bullets into someone makes me wonder if he does I'm sure he is loving the friendly death threats his family is receiving, and the knowledge that with each day it is less and less likely he will get anything close to a fair democratic investigation.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Ummm go read the op ed piece in the Guardian. Many deaths in police custody that they have never answered for. I'm sure the relatives don't really care if they were shot or suffocated or kicked to death by the police. You see the problem is that the police have increasingly become a political instrument of the state. That is where I get worried.
fakefur wrote: Many deaths in police custody that they have never answered for. I'm sure the relatives don't really care if they were shot or suffocated or kicked to death by the police. I'm sure they'd don't, but you seem to. Well up until the facts come out, then you changed your mind. We were talking about the ARUs only one reply ago, why the sudden change of topic? The issue here is accountability for shooting a man. Period.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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David Wullff wrote: The IPCC investigation must be allowed to complete unhindered Therefore I assumed that was a given. :confused:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Anonymous wrote: whether the police actually uttered the words themselves or let the witness statements stand as fact when they knew them to be wrong is all the same No, it is not the same *at all*, and that is where your problem lies. There is an IPCC investigation, pending a possible ciminal investigation, if the police force were to comment on any aspect of the case then they would be breaking the law and no one would get a fair trial. As it is, the media has already done servere damage to Mr. Menezes case for justice, but since when has what's 'right' or 'just' ever got in the way of a newspaper headline? Two wrongs do not make a right, the police force involved is holding their ground, and quite rightly so. The force's first priority is to ensure that evidence is collected and nothing is done that would hamper their own ongoing investigations (you know... the ones to catch the people who murdered 52 Londoners). That is the reason the IPCC investigation was held up, and it has been publicly stated as the reason. At the time the name of the bomber whom they identified this man as was not publicly realised because it was critical to the investigation, hence the reason it was not made public after the shooting and hence the reason it was deliberately avoided by the comissioner. The investigation, however, was still active during that time, and the reason for holding it up was perfectly valid and legal. You want the resignation of our Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the most senior operational police officer we have, the man who has done a lot for the advancement of our police forces over the years before his appointment, a knight no less, over a newspaper headline? You really need to get your head out of your arse long enough to separate fact from you wild sensationalist fiction. Sure it's not as fun or exciting, but that's life. You can't just change things because it would make something easier for you. I find it ironic, but sadly not at all surprising, that the aftermath of this mans death at the hands of police in London is causing more disturbance in the world than the mass murder of 52 people days beforehand. Do you know why that is? I'll tell you - it is because we can point the blame finger at the police, but the terrorists are faceless. Such is the state of our society today, where it is always someone elses fault. Anonymous wrote: I wonder what Anne Frank's friends and neighbours would say? When I
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Anonymous wrote: It's accountability to the democratic process Such a process is taking place, it was initiated the moment the order to kill was given. Anonymous wrote: knowing what I do about the police there and the fact that he pumped 11 bullets into someone makes me wonder if he does I'm sure he is loving the friendly death threats his family is receiving, and the knowledge that with each day it is less and less likely he will get anything close to a fair democratic investigation.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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I have lived all over the country, from nice rural Hertfordshire to Milton Keynes to East Anglia, to the slums of Exeter, the so-called capital city of the South West, and now, a market town in the middle of rural Devon. I've seen many local police forces and many different liveries. I have seen and spoken to my local ARU a number of times (a requirement as I operate imitation firearms on my property where there is a chance a member of the public will call the police). We don't have local beat bobbie anymore, they went with the railways before I was born.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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fakefur wrote: Many deaths in police custody that they have never answered for. I'm sure the relatives don't really care if they were shot or suffocated or kicked to death by the police. I'm sure they'd don't, but you seem to. Well up until the facts come out, then you changed your mind. We were talking about the ARUs only one reply ago, why the sudden change of topic? The issue here is accountability for shooting a man. Period.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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David Wullff wrote: The IPCC investigation must be allowed to complete unhindered Therefore I assumed that was a given. :confused:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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So you are a NRA wannabe. That would explain a lot. And btw Exeter et al don't really count as huge multi-cultural metropolii.
How far from the truth people can stray. :sigh:
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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No actually the police tried to prevent the investigation. You know he is getting death threats and all that do you?
I'm not going to start repeating myself again, not for you or for fat_boy, so you can search through this thread to find the message I'm referring to. There are very good and perfectly legal/understandable reasons why part of the IPCC investigation was delayed - not prevented, delayed - and that was to protect the integrity of the criminal investigation into finding the bombers that had detonated four bombs on the transport network the day before.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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So you are a NRA wannabe. That would explain a lot. And btw Exeter et al don't really count as huge multi-cultural metropolii.
fakefur wrote: And btw Exeter et al don't really count as huge multi-cultural metropolii. That was not a conclusive list, if you want more... London, Southampton, Norwich, Plymouth, Bristol... all places I have lived in at one time or another. I quote Exeter because that area had the most problems.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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No numbnuts. The issue is the police and their accountability for this and other deaths that they are responsible for. But as I see from earlier you are a gun toting NRA wannabe so I expect nothing other than the macho culture from you.
fakefur wrote: No numbnuts I just checked, they're not numb. fakefur wrote: The issue is the police and their accountability for this and other deaths that they are responsible for. I refuse to repeat myself. Read the message you replied to, then tell me how yours is a reply to that. fakefur wrote: I see from earlier you are a gun toting NRA wannabe D'oh, why of course I am! Psst, please don't tell the NRA I'm actively for - and involved in - removing guns from society though, they'll revoke my life membership! fakefur wrote: I expect nothing other than the macho culture from you And I offer my appologies, for it seems I am expecting far too much from you.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)