Iraqis? are they worth it
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bugDanny wrote: it could fall under the point of the earlier post "(pseudo)democracy Yes, but to be honest I do not think that was his intent. From the tone of the post I believe he was trying to take a swing at the US.
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Just curious, do you vote a 1 on every post you disagree with? I suspect you do, and that's why I voted you a 1.
I cannot take anything the Bush administration does seriously. The corruption, the cynical disregard for humanity, the cronyism and incompetence, all wrapped in a slimey flag of ultra-marketed nationalism repulses me. -- consdubya from fark.com.
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K(arl) wrote: And we know now Iraq complied Just by saying "We will comply" doent mean it's so. First of all. The resolution says Iraq will prove it destroyed its weapons. They never did. If they had destroyed them why noy provide the proof they did? But hey, dont take my word for it. Blix tells U.N. Iraq refuses to comply on disarmament U.N.: Iraq imported missile engines 'Iraq Has Failed to Comply' I can get more if you want......
kgaddy wrote: 'Iraq Has Failed to Comply' Read Blix's speech[^]. Blix said Iraq didn't comply about missiles parts and fuels, however he didn't say Iraq didn't destroy its stokpile of WMD. Note the sentence "I have not asserted n behalf of the UNMOVIC that proscribed items or activites exist in Iraq": Blix report stated that there were no certainty about WMD. This report led to the unanimously voted UN resolution 1441[^], which pushed Iraq to accept UN inspections. Was the resolution accepted[^] is the hot topic.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
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kgaddy wrote: 'Iraq Has Failed to Comply' Read Blix's speech[^]. Blix said Iraq didn't comply about missiles parts and fuels, however he didn't say Iraq didn't destroy its stokpile of WMD. Note the sentence "I have not asserted n behalf of the UNMOVIC that proscribed items or activites exist in Iraq": Blix report stated that there were no certainty about WMD. This report led to the unanimously voted UN resolution 1441[^], which pushed Iraq to accept UN inspections. Was the resolution accepted[^] is the hot topic.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
K(arl) wrote: however he didn't say Iraq didn't destroy its stokpile of WMD. The point is Iraq did'nt prove they DID destroy stockpiles. This was the point of the resolution. Do you remember when the Iraqis had all these documents and CDs on a table they claimed to have proof of the destruction of stockpiles? Well after Blix and his team went through them they found it was complete rubbish. K(arl) wrote: Blix report stated that there were no certainty about WMD. You are right on this statement. Which proves my point. There was "no certainty" and it was certainty that the Sadamn was supposed to provide. He did not.
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It is worth the effort. Those who do wish to live in a more modern society certainly deserve the opportunity to try to achieve it. It may well be a futile effort, but if that is true what are our other options? Do we simply continue to tolerate the violence and intolerance such societies spawn and try to defend ourselves from it with ever more draconian abuses to civil liberties? Do we nuke them? Do we buy them off? Do we isolate them? If this effort doesn't work, one of the others must be resorted to. So,yeah, its worth it. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: Those who do wish to live in a more modern society certainly deserve the opportunity to try to achieve it Agreed, but not with any mean. Stan Shannon wrote: Do we simply continue to tolerate the violence and intolerance such societies spawn and try to defend ourselves from it with ever more draconian abuses to civil liberties? Do we nuke them? Do we buy them off? Do we isolate them? When looking through History, Freedom carried at the point of the bayonet doesn't last for long. Giving the means to the population to take care of itself works much better. Stan Shannon wrote: So,yeah, its worth it To decide so, you must also look to the risks created by such an effort: civil war, destabilization of the country, emergence of new forces because of the vacuum created, the loss suffered by your troops, the financial cost, and what may happen in case of failure.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
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Stan Shannon wrote: Those who do wish to live in a more modern society certainly deserve the opportunity to try to achieve it Agreed, but not with any mean. Stan Shannon wrote: Do we simply continue to tolerate the violence and intolerance such societies spawn and try to defend ourselves from it with ever more draconian abuses to civil liberties? Do we nuke them? Do we buy them off? Do we isolate them? When looking through History, Freedom carried at the point of the bayonet doesn't last for long. Giving the means to the population to take care of itself works much better. Stan Shannon wrote: So,yeah, its worth it To decide so, you must also look to the risks created by such an effort: civil war, destabilization of the country, emergence of new forces because of the vacuum created, the loss suffered by your troops, the financial cost, and what may happen in case of failure.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
I don't necessarily agree with all of that, but just for the sake of argument, suppose I do. You still have to offer a better option. If invasion doesn't work, and sanctions don't work, what does? Most on the left appear to want to pursue an appeasement strategy. That is, try to understand what the Muslims are angry about and try our best to ease their concerns on those issues. But, once we start down that road, how far do we go? Even you have to agree that not every thing they are angry about is our fault, and much of it is simply a reflection of problems innate to their own culture. How much of that do we tolerate to try to get them to not be angry with us? I, for one, am happy to try it your way, but not until I have a concrete answer to that question. Where are you willing to draw the line and say - fuck it, give them the bayonet...? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Stan Shannon wrote: Those who do wish to live in a more modern society certainly deserve the opportunity to try to achieve it Agreed, but not with any mean. Stan Shannon wrote: Do we simply continue to tolerate the violence and intolerance such societies spawn and try to defend ourselves from it with ever more draconian abuses to civil liberties? Do we nuke them? Do we buy them off? Do we isolate them? When looking through History, Freedom carried at the point of the bayonet doesn't last for long. Giving the means to the population to take care of itself works much better. Stan Shannon wrote: So,yeah, its worth it To decide so, you must also look to the risks created by such an effort: civil war, destabilization of the country, emergence of new forces because of the vacuum created, the loss suffered by your troops, the financial cost, and what may happen in case of failure.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
K(arl) wrote: what may happen in case of failure I support the history-repeats-itself theory that saddam/iraq should be handled DIFFERENTLY than previous over-motivated dictators like Herr H were handled with way too much appeasement & not enough containment. My guess is if some secret spy types had succeeded in neutralizing his power in 1930's Germany things would have been different. Yes, probably still lots of fighting due to general world situation at that time, but I think it would have been less. Unless of course, you are the optimist type & believe that somebody with even more abilities to motivate the German people would have then come to power.... :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
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No, I only vote 5s for the really good ones. I don't agree with voting 1 or 2 without explaining why.
I cannot take anything the Bush administration does seriously. The corruption, the cynical disregard for humanity, the cronyism and incompetence, all wrapped in a slimey flag of ultra-marketed nationalism repulses me. -- consdubya from fark.com.
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No, I only vote 5s for the really good ones. I don't agree with voting 1 or 2 without explaining why.
I cannot take anything the Bush administration does seriously. The corruption, the cynical disregard for humanity, the cronyism and incompetence, all wrapped in a slimey flag of ultra-marketed nationalism repulses me. -- consdubya from fark.com.
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Well, after the previous post, and, from what an old friend of my fathers said, who was in Iraq in the 30's as a soldier, one has to wonder whether these people deserve someone like Sadam to rule them. They are, quite clearly, incapable of governing their own society effectively, and steeped in violence of the most brutal sort. And havent changed since the 30's. Should we even bother being there? Nunc est bibendum!
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Well, after the previous post, and, from what an old friend of my fathers said, who was in Iraq in the 30's as a soldier, one has to wonder whether these people deserve someone like Sadam to rule them. They are, quite clearly, incapable of governing their own society effectively, and steeped in violence of the most brutal sort. And havent changed since the 30's. Should we even bother being there? Nunc est bibendum!
fat_boy wrote: Should we even bother being there? that question is about 3 years past its expiration date Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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K(arl) wrote: however he didn't say Iraq didn't destroy its stokpile of WMD. The point is Iraq did'nt prove they DID destroy stockpiles. This was the point of the resolution. Do you remember when the Iraqis had all these documents and CDs on a table they claimed to have proof of the destruction of stockpiles? Well after Blix and his team went through them they found it was complete rubbish. K(arl) wrote: Blix report stated that there were no certainty about WMD. You are right on this statement. Which proves my point. There was "no certainty" and it was certainty that the Sadamn was supposed to provide. He did not.
kgaddy wrote: The point is Iraq did'nt prove they DID destroy stockpiles The point is some nations weren't sure about the documents furnished by Iraq (when other nations asserted they were sure there were WMDs, and asserted they knew where they were...) That's why inspections were required, and were occuring. And then the war started. kgaddy wrote: Well after Blix and his team went through them they found it was complete rubbish. Not complete rubbish, for instance in these documents Iraq said it acquired parts of missiles, which were later destroyed on the order of the UN. Also the documents didn't lie when they said there were no chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. I also remember a certain presentation by a certain secretary of State, saying he has a thick file about "the existence of mobile production facilities used to make biological agents","that a missile brigade outside Baghdad was disbursing rocket launchers and warheads containing biological warfare agents to various locations, distributing them to various locations in western Iraq ready to use"...all this being pure rubbish. kgaddy wrote: There was "no certainty" and it was certainty that the Sadamn was supposed to provide. He did not. Now we know SH was right: there was no WMD in Iraq. After the invasion, it isn't sure anymore there is no WMD in Iraq right now. And BTW resolution 1441 didn't authorize for a military action.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
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Well, after the previous post, and, from what an old friend of my fathers said, who was in Iraq in the 30's as a soldier, one has to wonder whether these people deserve someone like Sadam to rule them. They are, quite clearly, incapable of governing their own society effectively, and steeped in violence of the most brutal sort. And havent changed since the 30's. Should we even bother being there? Nunc est bibendum!
There was a time when I'd get hysterical on this "Operation Iraqi Freedom" thing. I never believed in the Washington's gangsters arguments' (WMD, terrorist links, freedom & democracy, etc). Asia, Africa and Latin-America are sick and tired of historical reasons for not believing in them. And I never believed in US army competence to do nation building alone. I feel diferent now. You (americans) are begginning to see the truth. And believe me: there is much more bitter medicine to swallow. Stop being naive: you didn't go there to free the Iraqi people and you don't do imperialism to make occupied countries happier. America is an empire and it does imperialism only to defend it's own interests. Just like China does in Tibet, like France in Algeria, etc.
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There was a time when I'd get hysterical on this "Operation Iraqi Freedom" thing. I never believed in the Washington's gangsters arguments' (WMD, terrorist links, freedom & democracy, etc). Asia, Africa and Latin-America are sick and tired of historical reasons for not believing in them. And I never believed in US army competence to do nation building alone. I feel diferent now. You (americans) are begginning to see the truth. And believe me: there is much more bitter medicine to swallow. Stop being naive: you didn't go there to free the Iraqi people and you don't do imperialism to make occupied countries happier. America is an empire and it does imperialism only to defend it's own interests. Just like China does in Tibet, like France in Algeria, etc.
Diego Moita wrote: America is an empire and it does imperialism only to defend it's own interests. Just like China does in Tibet, like France in Algeria, etc. Isn't that somewhat unavoidable though? Obviously, no nation ever attains the power to be an empire, which we certainly have, without doing something right. And, having achieved that level of power, why would any of them then begin doing things differently? I don't deny that history has thrust the mantle of empire upon the US. The question is who would you have preferred to have it? Germany? Russia? All things considered, the US is using the power of empire in a far more responsible way than any nation that has gone before us. The peoples of Asia and Africa and Latin-America can whine about us all they like. But the truth is that for all of the mistakes and heavy handed diplomacy the US has been guilty of, most of the problems those places have are of their own making, not ours. Their cultures, tradions and politics are just fucked up and would be failing even if the US had never existed. You can use the US as an excuse all you like, but at the end of the day, you are going to be left with the same problems. And that is just the bitter pill you have to swallow. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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kgaddy wrote: The point is Iraq did'nt prove they DID destroy stockpiles The point is some nations weren't sure about the documents furnished by Iraq (when other nations asserted they were sure there were WMDs, and asserted they knew where they were...) That's why inspections were required, and were occuring. And then the war started. kgaddy wrote: Well after Blix and his team went through them they found it was complete rubbish. Not complete rubbish, for instance in these documents Iraq said it acquired parts of missiles, which were later destroyed on the order of the UN. Also the documents didn't lie when they said there were no chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. I also remember a certain presentation by a certain secretary of State, saying he has a thick file about "the existence of mobile production facilities used to make biological agents","that a missile brigade outside Baghdad was disbursing rocket launchers and warheads containing biological warfare agents to various locations, distributing them to various locations in western Iraq ready to use"...all this being pure rubbish. kgaddy wrote: There was "no certainty" and it was certainty that the Sadamn was supposed to provide. He did not. Now we know SH was right: there was no WMD in Iraq. After the invasion, it isn't sure anymore there is no WMD in Iraq right now. And BTW resolution 1441 didn't authorize for a military action.
fat_boy wrote: I've got plenty of opinions, if you don't like them I've got plenty more
K(arl) wrote: That's why inspections were required, and were occuring. And then the war started. Not true. The Iraqis were hampering the inspections...then the war started. K(arl) wrote: Also the documents didn't lie when they said there were no chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. You do not know that. There have been nerve gas found, though not in large quanities. The problem is, you dont need large quanities to do a lot of damage. http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1873019&nav=EyB0NBHX http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/18/115119.shtml K(arl) wrote: Now we know SH was right: there was no WMD in Iraq. Not the point. Let's put it this way. If a madman goes into a house and shoots a lady inside. Then tells the police outside, "I threw away the gun, dont shoot" but will not come outside and show his hands. And will not let the other occupants of the house out. Do you believe him? Or do you try to take hime out and presume the worst, that he still may have that gun. K(arl) wrote: And BTW resolution 1441 didn't authorize for a military action. Never said it did. There should have been another resolution to take action after 1441 was not in compliance. That said, 1441 was useless. If the UN is going to pass resolutions and not enfore them, what use are they? Just a waste of time.
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Diego Moita wrote: America is an empire and it does imperialism only to defend it's own interests. Just like China does in Tibet, like France in Algeria, etc. Isn't that somewhat unavoidable though? Obviously, no nation ever attains the power to be an empire, which we certainly have, without doing something right. And, having achieved that level of power, why would any of them then begin doing things differently? I don't deny that history has thrust the mantle of empire upon the US. The question is who would you have preferred to have it? Germany? Russia? All things considered, the US is using the power of empire in a far more responsible way than any nation that has gone before us. The peoples of Asia and Africa and Latin-America can whine about us all they like. But the truth is that for all of the mistakes and heavy handed diplomacy the US has been guilty of, most of the problems those places have are of their own making, not ours. Their cultures, tradions and politics are just fucked up and would be failing even if the US had never existed. You can use the US as an excuse all you like, but at the end of the day, you are going to be left with the same problems. And that is just the bitter pill you have to swallow. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: Isn't that somewhat unavoidable though? Obviously, no nation ever attains the power to be an empire, which we certainly have, without doing something right. 100% right Stan Shannon wrote: And, having achieved that level of power, why would any of them then begin doing things differently? Well... if I got you right, you're claiming the US to be a different empire, right? If you were different you would... Stan Shannon wrote: the US is using the power of empire in a far more responsible way than any nation that has gone before us. Doesn't look so much like that, from down here... Stan Shannon wrote: most of the problems those places have are of their own making, not ours. Their cultures, tradions and politics are just f***ed up and would be failing even if the US had never existed. You can use the US as an excuse all you like, but at the end of the day, you are going to be left with the same problems. And that is just the bitter pill you have to swallow. I don't mind swallow that pill. We do need to learn how to make sound, democratic institutions by ourselves (I still hope we'll do). And I am not blaming the US for the mess we make and are. I am complaining about american solutions. They are not even meant to be solutions, so stop selling them as that. I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Stan Shannon wrote: Isn't that somewhat unavoidable though? Obviously, no nation ever attains the power to be an empire, which we certainly have, without doing something right. 100% right Stan Shannon wrote: And, having achieved that level of power, why would any of them then begin doing things differently? Well... if I got you right, you're claiming the US to be a different empire, right? If you were different you would... Stan Shannon wrote: the US is using the power of empire in a far more responsible way than any nation that has gone before us. Doesn't look so much like that, from down here... Stan Shannon wrote: most of the problems those places have are of their own making, not ours. Their cultures, tradions and politics are just f***ed up and would be failing even if the US had never existed. You can use the US as an excuse all you like, but at the end of the day, you are going to be left with the same problems. And that is just the bitter pill you have to swallow. I don't mind swallow that pill. We do need to learn how to make sound, democratic institutions by ourselves (I still hope we'll do). And I am not blaming the US for the mess we make and are. I am complaining about american solutions. They are not even meant to be solutions, so stop selling them as that. I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Diego Moita wrote: Doesn't look so much like that, from down here... I'd like to have an example. Just so I can be educated.
The support of US to most of the dictatorships of Latin America in the 20th century (Somoza, Pinochet, Argentina's juntas, Brazil's first dictators in the 60's, etc), the support of Reagan to the terrorists which threw Angola into civil war and made it the country record in land mines, the Corean war, the support to some of the dirtiest dictators in muslin world (Saudi family, Mubarak, Musharaf). There are many other cases. They probably look small to you because we are small and you're big. But one small thing in America can have a big impact among us. I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.