An Islamic guide on how to beat your wife
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So you believe that printed guideline does not make the situation worse? THe fact is even if it is discouraged, it does not put them in jail. I can hear the defense, "But it's in the Quran!"
kgaddy wrote: So you believe that printed guideline does not make the situation worse? I believe the situation's already so bad, it probably doesn't make much difference. How many women do you know, who ended up staying with, even protecting a guy who beats them senseless? And this is with it being frowned on pretty openly! kgaddy wrote: I can hear the defense, "But it's in the Quran!" So what's our defense? Hmm? What've we got, that excuses our society, and gives us license to point fingers?
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kgaddy wrote: So you believe that printed guideline does not make the situation worse? I believe the situation's already so bad, it probably doesn't make much difference. How many women do you know, who ended up staying with, even protecting a guy who beats them senseless? And this is with it being frowned on pretty openly! kgaddy wrote: I can hear the defense, "But it's in the Quran!" So what's our defense? Hmm? What've we got, that excuses our society, and gives us license to point fingers?
Shog9 wrote: I believe the situation's already so bad, it probably doesn't make much difference. How many women do you know, who ended up staying with, even protecting a guy who beats them senseless? And this is with it being frowned on pretty openly! But at least it's a choice,even if it's a bad one. With shria law, they have no choice. Also, when they go leave the guy and try to get him locked up, we have laws that will protect her and put him away. Shog9 wrote: So what's our defense? I was talking as if I we a man accused of beating his wife, he whould use the defence that it is in the Quran. In our Society, the only defence that might work is self defence.
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Shog9 wrote: I believe the situation's already so bad, it probably doesn't make much difference. How many women do you know, who ended up staying with, even protecting a guy who beats them senseless? And this is with it being frowned on pretty openly! But at least it's a choice,even if it's a bad one. With shria law, they have no choice. Also, when they go leave the guy and try to get him locked up, we have laws that will protect her and put him away. Shog9 wrote: So what's our defense? I was talking as if I we a man accused of beating his wife, he whould use the defence that it is in the Quran. In our Society, the only defence that might work is self defence.
kgaddy wrote: But at least it's a choice,even if it's a bad one. Which are worse - shackles of law, or shackles of mind?
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kgaddy wrote: But at least it's a choice,even if it's a bad one. Which are worse - shackles of law, or shackles of mind?
"the bending of minds, and the breaking of bodies and spirits"[^] Probably the most interesting album I own, lyrics wise. One of the reasons why I bought the bible. -- Look straight into the light!
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kgaddy wrote: But at least it's a choice,even if it's a bad one. Which are worse - shackles of law, or shackles of mind?
Shog9 wrote: Which are worse - shackles of law, or shackles of mind? The shackles on the law...hands down. You can reverse you mind at any time. it's a choice. No matter what you do. You cannot force them to think a certain way. All you can do is give them the freedom to think as they wish. It's the individual's responsibility.
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Shog9 wrote: Which are worse - shackles of law, or shackles of mind? The shackles on the law...hands down. You can reverse you mind at any time. it's a choice. No matter what you do. You cannot force them to think a certain way. All you can do is give them the freedom to think as they wish. It's the individual's responsibility.
Anonymous wrote: You can reverse you mind at any time. it's a choice. And yet, you are shackled if you do not. And what law can free you from those bonds? A terrible thing: a woman, overpowered and beaten. One yet worse: the woman, bound not by law but by her own mind, returns to be beaten again. This is what i mean by shackles of the mind.
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Anonymous wrote: You can reverse you mind at any time. it's a choice. And yet, you are shackled if you do not. And what law can free you from those bonds? A terrible thing: a woman, overpowered and beaten. One yet worse: the woman, bound not by law but by her own mind, returns to be beaten again. This is what i mean by shackles of the mind.
This is getting surreal. Shog9 wrote: And yet, you are shackled if you do not. And what law can free you from those bonds? Why are we talking about this. There are people making stupid decisions everyday. THere is nothing you or I can do to MAKE them stop. Ever hear the saying "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink"? So back to reality. My worry is for the women who WANT to leave men who beat them. Your non caring attitude that Sharia law makes it legal for men to beat wives does not help the women who want to do better. I guess if it were up to you, no women would have a chance because you lumped them all in one bin as being shacked by the mind.
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Anonymous wrote: You can reverse you mind at any time. it's a choice. And yet, you are shackled if you do not. And what law can free you from those bonds? A terrible thing: a woman, overpowered and beaten. One yet worse: the woman, bound not by law but by her own mind, returns to be beaten again. This is what i mean by shackles of the mind.
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This is getting surreal. Shog9 wrote: And yet, you are shackled if you do not. And what law can free you from those bonds? Why are we talking about this. There are people making stupid decisions everyday. THere is nothing you or I can do to MAKE them stop. Ever hear the saying "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink"? So back to reality. My worry is for the women who WANT to leave men who beat them. Your non caring attitude that Sharia law makes it legal for men to beat wives does not help the women who want to do better. I guess if it were up to you, no women would have a chance because you lumped them all in one bin as being shacked by the mind.
Anonymous wrote: I guess if it were up to you, no women would have a chance because you lumped them all in one bin as being shacked by the mind. I did no such thing. Can you not discuss without attack/defend, or do you just prefer that style? :confused: Anonymous wrote: There are people making stupid decisions everyday. Indeed there are. Anonymous wrote: THere is nothing you or I can do to MAKE them stop. Absolutely correct. Regardless of the laws in place, law does not control behavior. All it does is highlight deviations. Read that again. Now consider: 1) a law prohibiting violence will not stop violence 2) a law allowing violence will not cause violence You might say that #1 applies to us, living here in our enlightened society, while #2 applies to those living under brutish Islamic law. The end result of both is this: there will be those who choose violence, and those who do not. What is the purpose of law, then? To define what is acceptable to society. We cannot control behavior, but we can identify it, and ostracize deviants. Who is a deviant? In this case, our deviants might include someone who slaps his wife. Under a strict application of the doctrines stated in A.A.'s first link, you might have to haul off and punch her before being considered deviant. Neither society is exactly gung-ho over the idea of violence, but one is considerably less tolerant of it, at least in law. In practice, we tolerate a fair bit of it.
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Anonymous wrote: I guess if it were up to you, no women would have a chance because you lumped them all in one bin as being shacked by the mind. I did no such thing. Can you not discuss without attack/defend, or do you just prefer that style? :confused: Anonymous wrote: There are people making stupid decisions everyday. Indeed there are. Anonymous wrote: THere is nothing you or I can do to MAKE them stop. Absolutely correct. Regardless of the laws in place, law does not control behavior. All it does is highlight deviations. Read that again. Now consider: 1) a law prohibiting violence will not stop violence 2) a law allowing violence will not cause violence You might say that #1 applies to us, living here in our enlightened society, while #2 applies to those living under brutish Islamic law. The end result of both is this: there will be those who choose violence, and those who do not. What is the purpose of law, then? To define what is acceptable to society. We cannot control behavior, but we can identify it, and ostracize deviants. Who is a deviant? In this case, our deviants might include someone who slaps his wife. Under a strict application of the doctrines stated in A.A.'s first link, you might have to haul off and punch her before being considered deviant. Neither society is exactly gung-ho over the idea of violence, but one is considerably less tolerant of it, at least in law. In practice, we tolerate a fair bit of it.
Shog9 wrote: Regardless of the laws in place, law does not control behavior. All it does is highlight deviations. That is a smart thing to say. ! Regardz Colin J Davies The most LinkedIn CPian (that I know of anyhow) :-)
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Shog9 wrote: Regardless of the laws in place, law does not control behavior. All it does is highlight deviations. That is a smart thing to say. ! Regardz Colin J Davies The most LinkedIn CPian (that I know of anyhow) :-)
Yeah, i almost wish i'd thought it up myself... ;)
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kgaddy wrote: But at least it's a choice,even if it's a bad one. Which are worse - shackles of law, or shackles of mind?
Reality check, a religion that freely supports wife beating is a bad thing. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand human nature at all. If you agree with my statement, then don't try to divert the issue to just have an argument. If you don't, then study human behavior a bit closer. Jeremy Falcon
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So you just have this list handy, because they look really familiar. kgaddy wrote: You will try to sugar coat them and justify them. Sugar coat them no not at all, I won't even respond to them. If you want I can help you understand anything you want to know about the abc's and 123's. I get a sense from this and previous discussions you dont have a grasp of the very basics. If there is something you are genuinely interested in beyond the basics, I am willing to also talk about them, but you have to realize your a "student" sort of speak and not a know it all [there is a big difference in attitude when that is done]. Quran Translation Intro Discover
Dude, you're a freaking nutcase. Answer the guy's questions already rather than beating around the bush. Einstein (ya know the smart guy) said if you know something you can teach an eight year old. So, since you're the expert (as you claim) in your religion, teach us rather than be elusive. Jeremy Falcon
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Maybe you misunderstand me. I saying this is what I have heard about Islam. All I want to know is are they true? I am not a student of Islam, noe will I be. But I am willing to live in peace with Islam. But from what I read, Islam is not willing to live in peace with me. Now, if this is wrong, please show me why it is wrong. But remember, I am not interested in Islam as a whole, I just am interested as how it relates to me as a infidel. And you make you assured, I am not a know it all. That is why I am asking you. But remember, I am asking you as an equal, not as a student.
I haven't a clue who you are, but I like your style. :) And FWIW (not much, I'm not on many CPians favorites list :)), I agree with your statements. Jeremy Falcon
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Reality check, a religion that freely supports wife beating is a bad thing. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand human nature at all. If you agree with my statement, then don't try to divert the issue to just have an argument. If you don't, then study human behavior a bit closer. Jeremy Falcon
I'm sorry, was this thread supposed to be a long string of replies pledging their loathing of wife-beating? Should i start a "Rape is Bad" thread, just so we can get that out of the way too? Don't let that knee-jerk kick you in the teeth... :| kgaddy asked a single question: "Why do these women put up with this?" I don't know - i'm not a woman, and definately not islamic. My wife, who went through a very long, very abusive relationship some years ago, generally attributes the acceptance of abuse in this country to low self-esteem, women basing their self-worth on their ability to please whatever asshole they manage to shack up with... whether that's the case or not, i can't say. My point in replying here, misunderstood though it may be, is that the behavior goes on, heedless of law and religion.
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Dude, you're a freaking nutcase. Answer the guy's questions already rather than beating around the bush. Einstein (ya know the smart guy) said if you know something you can teach an eight year old. So, since you're the expert (as you claim) in your religion, teach us rather than be elusive. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Answer the guy's questions already rather than beating around the bush. What after I finish his 20 questions, do you have another long list that you would like me to get through? Jeremy Falcon wrote: Einstein (ya know the smart guy) said if you know something you can teach an eight year old. Yet a kid would understand what the orginal article said... Jeremy Falcon wrote: So, since you're the expert (as you claim) in your religion, teach us rather than be elusive. I don't think I ever said that. Not being elusive at all. If he came up with those 20 questions while studying Islam, I would assume he would know the basics. If he just got it from an anti-Islam website for "anti-Islam" material [they seem to be a dime a dozen with the same content] then he can go to those sites for answers. Quran Translation Intro Discover
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kgaddy wrote: I think you miss the point. I don't want women to be beat AT ALL. Um ofcourse not, yet it is happening in mass in your backyard. Just because you dont want it to happen doesnt mean your fellow man isnt sending them to the hospital. kgaddy wrote: Time to get out of the middle ages and join the rest of civilization. I agree, give me a call when you start helping abused women. Quran Translation Intro Discover
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kgaddy wrote: The guy is trying to sugarcoat wife beating, but still does not deny it. And what? He gave you a link that pretty much spells out the attitude towards it: allowed, but discouraged. Don't get me wrong - i'm none too impressed with this sort of thing, and there are plenty of reports of violence against women coming from Islamic countries... But sadly, there are plenty of 'em coming from much, much closer as well. The sad truth of the matter is, there seems to be plenty of enthusiasm for violence towards women all over, with or without printed "guidelines".
Shog9 wrote: The sad truth of the matter is, there seems to be plenty of enthusiasm for violence towards women all over, with or without printed "guidelines". Yes, I agree with you on this. I don't see this as a particularly Islamic problem at all. This seems to be indigenous to a multitude of cultures. Why, for that matter, you might as well blame the religion of alcohol equally. I hardly think that several (open to interpretation) lines of print in a religious book is responsible for the global epidemic of violence against women.
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kgaddy wrote: But at least it's a choice,even if it's a bad one. Which are worse - shackles of law, or shackles of mind?
Wow, I must congratulate you on that 1 vote. Like, wtf?? :confused:
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A.A. wrote: I guess you want the blows to show black and blue and make the face swell and do some type of permanent damage.:wtf: I think you miss the point. I don't want women to be beat AT ALL. A.A. wrote: Dont pretend you our your favorite newspaper know an iota of a thing about Islam, because apparantly your tinted glasses will make the best of things to happen to man kind into the worst of things. Do you mean there is ggod to beating a woman? Please tell me, how is beating a woman "a best of things"? I'll tell you right now, if any real man sees another man beating a woman he should beat the sh!t out him. Time to get out of the middle ages and join the rest of civilization.
kgaddy wrote: Time to get out of the middle ages and join the rest of civilization Good idea![^]
The great error of nearly all studies of war has been to consider war as an episode in foreign policies, when it is an act of interior politics - Simone Weil Fold with us! ยค flickr