good books for web development
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several language can be used to design web such as asp ,jsp And I have many good e-book to teach you do it ---------------------------- Jerry yu Chinese programming fans
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Hi guys, Tried to find the books to teach myself the web development that is simple to understand and have samples. Beside this after that I'd like to pass the test for certified web developer just to make my job search easier. :^)
Paper certifications don't do much for the industry. Why get certified in something you have no experience in or knowledge of? Would you hire a doctor or auto mechanic who had no experience outside of a classroom? I would hope not. What does "being certified" in something mean to you or a prospective employer?
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
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Programming ASP.NET by Jesse Liberty http://www.libertyassociates.com/pages/Books.htm[^] 2nd Edition is VS 2003 3rd edition is VS 2005 Kevin
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Paper certifications don't do much for the industry. Why get certified in something you have no experience in or knowledge of? Would you hire a doctor or auto mechanic who had no experience outside of a classroom? I would hope not. What does "being certified" in something mean to you or a prospective employer?
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
First of all I have absolutely different impression about to be certified. Papers always have meanings for companies. For example the company I'm working for asking the potential employee to have at least the bachelor degree in engineering science. Is it not just a paper, if you don't really do something in your field? The second I think it is obvious that I was asking for some books to get the knowledge and after all the experience in this particular field. Doctors and mechanics you mentioned eventually get experience either in the hospital or in the body shop with some preliminary practice of course. It is exactly what I am going to do. Beside this I have already more than 10 years programming experience. Again if we go back to doctors and mechanics they always have some courses to update their knowledge of available treatments or of a new car technology, I hope. I don't see what I'm doing wrong though
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Paper certifications don't do much for the industry. Why get certified in something you have no experience in or knowledge of? Would you hire a doctor or auto mechanic who had no experience outside of a classroom? I would hope not. What does "being certified" in something mean to you or a prospective employer?
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
This one is for David Crow. "Would you hire a doctor or auto mechanic who had no experience outside of a classroom?" So how does the Doctor or Mechanic get this experience? The mechanic is employed by someone who teaches them the trade. But how many software companies would take in someone off the street with no experience in programming? Would you personally prefer to hire someone who has qualifications but no commercial experience, or someone who has no programming background whatsoever but thinks they could manage it? Many people, including myself, have spent a couple of years doing distance learning courses in order to gain these "paper qualifications". I paid nearly £6000 and spent over 40 hours a week studying from home while holding down a full time job and within 21 months of being introduced to programming I now have 3 MCP's in C# and VB .NET, the next one coming in November and I'm confident of having 2 MCAD's by February. Would you, as an employer, hire someone off the street, who has no experience, or me? And if "paper qualifications" are ruining the industry, can you please advise me as to how to get into the industry in the first place? Because with no experience I didn't get a look in, but with my "paper qualifications" I was able to gain employment in the IT industry. It is narrow-minded views like yours which are preventing a lot of people with talent, ambition and the determination to succeed from gaining entry into this industry. "Look at what I have achieved so far, give me the chance to prove myself, and reap the benefits" - New English proverb
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This one is for David Crow. "Would you hire a doctor or auto mechanic who had no experience outside of a classroom?" So how does the Doctor or Mechanic get this experience? The mechanic is employed by someone who teaches them the trade. But how many software companies would take in someone off the street with no experience in programming? Would you personally prefer to hire someone who has qualifications but no commercial experience, or someone who has no programming background whatsoever but thinks they could manage it? Many people, including myself, have spent a couple of years doing distance learning courses in order to gain these "paper qualifications". I paid nearly £6000 and spent over 40 hours a week studying from home while holding down a full time job and within 21 months of being introduced to programming I now have 3 MCP's in C# and VB .NET, the next one coming in November and I'm confident of having 2 MCAD's by February. Would you, as an employer, hire someone off the street, who has no experience, or me? And if "paper qualifications" are ruining the industry, can you please advise me as to how to get into the industry in the first place? Because with no experience I didn't get a look in, but with my "paper qualifications" I was able to gain employment in the IT industry. It is narrow-minded views like yours which are preventing a lot of people with talent, ambition and the determination to succeed from gaining entry into this industry. "Look at what I have achieved so far, give me the chance to prove myself, and reap the benefits" - New English proverb
dundealing wrote:
So how does the Doctor or Mechanic get this experience?
It's called residency. Doctors cannot get their MD without having actual experience (under the guidance of a veteran doctor). Automotive engineers are ASE-certified but only after they have acquired real-world experience in a garage/shop. The tests are too demanding to simply pass by perusing a book. I suppose there are exceptions to every rule.
dundealing wrote:
The mechanic is employed by someone who teaches them the trade.
Now you are talking about something completely different. This is called an apprentice. In this situation, the employer knows full well that the employee is not yet qualified. This is in contrast to an employee going to said employer with a certificate in hand and asking for employment. The employer should be able to assume that the employee is worthy of employment in the field in which he holds a certificate. In case you missed it (which you obviously did or you would have not needed to post this), the point I was addressing was acquiring a certification in something and then trying to seek employment solely based on that certificate is wrong. It is misleading unless you make the employer full aware that you have no experience and that the certificate was awarded solely based on book-learning. Employers hire inexperienced folks all the time, but they know it at the time of hiring, not months into a project.
dundealing wrote:
It is narrow-minded views like yours which are preventing a lot of people with talent, ambition and the determination to succeed from gaining entry into this industry.
People prevent themselves from being hired, not the other way around.
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
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dundealing wrote:
So how does the Doctor or Mechanic get this experience?
It's called residency. Doctors cannot get their MD without having actual experience (under the guidance of a veteran doctor). Automotive engineers are ASE-certified but only after they have acquired real-world experience in a garage/shop. The tests are too demanding to simply pass by perusing a book. I suppose there are exceptions to every rule.
dundealing wrote:
The mechanic is employed by someone who teaches them the trade.
Now you are talking about something completely different. This is called an apprentice. In this situation, the employer knows full well that the employee is not yet qualified. This is in contrast to an employee going to said employer with a certificate in hand and asking for employment. The employer should be able to assume that the employee is worthy of employment in the field in which he holds a certificate. In case you missed it (which you obviously did or you would have not needed to post this), the point I was addressing was acquiring a certification in something and then trying to seek employment solely based on that certificate is wrong. It is misleading unless you make the employer full aware that you have no experience and that the certificate was awarded solely based on book-learning. Employers hire inexperienced folks all the time, but they know it at the time of hiring, not months into a project.
dundealing wrote:
It is narrow-minded views like yours which are preventing a lot of people with talent, ambition and the determination to succeed from gaining entry into this industry.
People prevent themselves from being hired, not the other way around.
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
DavidCrow wrote:
It's called residency. Doctors cannot get their MD without having actual experience (under the guidance of a veteran doctor).
I would assume that the Doctor would have spent a few years studying prior to getting their residency. Or did they just turn up at the hospital and ask for a job? I would put this on a par with studying computer programming in your own time in preparation for getting your first IT job.
DavidCrow wrote:
Now you are talking about something completely different. This is called an apprentice. In this situation, the employer knows full well that the employee is not yet qualified. This is in contrast to an employee going to said employer with a certificate in hand and asking for employment. The employer should be able to assume that the employee is worthy of employment in the field in which he holds a certificate.... ...the point I was addressing was acquiring a certification in something and then trying to seek employment solely based on that certificate is wrong. It is misleading unless you make the employer full aware that you have no experience and that the certificate was awarded solely based on book-learning. Employers hire inexperienced folks all the time, but they know it at the time of hiring, not months into a project.
My employers were fully aware from day one that I had no commercial experience, and it was the fact that I had spent so much of my own time and money that swayed them. They were impressed with the dedication I showed and were willing to give me a start in the IT industry. If I had been foolish enough to claim to be worth the certification, I would not have lasted a week. Four months into the job, I am still starting an hour early each day and spending my evenings and weekends trying to improve myself. I know that I have a lot to learn about the industry and that is why I push myself every day. I do not rest on the qualifications I have earned so far, but strive to make myself worthy of the title Microsoft Certified Professional. One last question would be, do you also have companies in the USA who teach IT skills via distance-learning courses? If so, would you ever consider hiring (or working alongside)someone who had gained their qualifications this way? If your answer is "no", then why are these companies still in business? It might be because some companies put some kind of value on the effort the students
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DavidCrow wrote:
It's called residency. Doctors cannot get their MD without having actual experience (under the guidance of a veteran doctor).
I would assume that the Doctor would have spent a few years studying prior to getting their residency. Or did they just turn up at the hospital and ask for a job? I would put this on a par with studying computer programming in your own time in preparation for getting your first IT job.
DavidCrow wrote:
Now you are talking about something completely different. This is called an apprentice. In this situation, the employer knows full well that the employee is not yet qualified. This is in contrast to an employee going to said employer with a certificate in hand and asking for employment. The employer should be able to assume that the employee is worthy of employment in the field in which he holds a certificate.... ...the point I was addressing was acquiring a certification in something and then trying to seek employment solely based on that certificate is wrong. It is misleading unless you make the employer full aware that you have no experience and that the certificate was awarded solely based on book-learning. Employers hire inexperienced folks all the time, but they know it at the time of hiring, not months into a project.
My employers were fully aware from day one that I had no commercial experience, and it was the fact that I had spent so much of my own time and money that swayed them. They were impressed with the dedication I showed and were willing to give me a start in the IT industry. If I had been foolish enough to claim to be worth the certification, I would not have lasted a week. Four months into the job, I am still starting an hour early each day and spending my evenings and weekends trying to improve myself. I know that I have a lot to learn about the industry and that is why I push myself every day. I do not rest on the qualifications I have earned so far, but strive to make myself worthy of the title Microsoft Certified Professional. One last question would be, do you also have companies in the USA who teach IT skills via distance-learning courses? If so, would you ever consider hiring (or working alongside)someone who had gained their qualifications this way? If your answer is "no", then why are these companies still in business? It might be because some companies put some kind of value on the effort the students
dundealing wrote:
My employers were fully aware from day one that I had no commercial experience...
Then why are you sitting here whining about it? I obviously was not referring to when I replied to irinal. You got a job with no experience but your employer was made aware of that. Not a big deal. Had you gotten said job under the premise that you had experience, you would thenm be guilty of what I have been talking about along...deception.
dundealing wrote:
They were impressed with the dedication I showed...
I've never known one that wasn't.
dundealing wrote:
If I had been foolish enough to claim to be worth the certification, I would not have lasted a week.
This makes no sense. Why would you say you were not worthy a certification with your name on it? That's just silly.
dundealing wrote:
Four months into the job, I am still starting an hour early each day and spending my evenings and weekends trying to improve myself.
I still do that some fifteen years later.
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
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dundealing wrote:
My employers were fully aware from day one that I had no commercial experience...
Then why are you sitting here whining about it? I obviously was not referring to when I replied to irinal. You got a job with no experience but your employer was made aware of that. Not a big deal. Had you gotten said job under the premise that you had experience, you would thenm be guilty of what I have been talking about along...deception.
dundealing wrote:
They were impressed with the dedication I showed...
I've never known one that wasn't.
dundealing wrote:
If I had been foolish enough to claim to be worth the certification, I would not have lasted a week.
This makes no sense. Why would you say you were not worthy a certification with your name on it? That's just silly.
dundealing wrote:
Four months into the job, I am still starting an hour early each day and spending my evenings and weekends trying to improve myself.
I still do that some fifteen years later.
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
All fair points, but the reason I submitted my posts was because of the way you put Iranal down so easily without a proper explanation. Now that you have clarified your initial comments, we are more enlightened, but from my personal experience I know how demoralising it is to be knocked back by employers time and time again after all the effort put in. On top of that, your original post made it sound as if the qualification on its own was relatively worthless and that he should not bother.
DavidCrow wrote:
dundealing wrote: If I had been foolish enough to claim to be worth the certification, I would not have lasted a week. This makes no sense. Why would you say you were not worthy a certification with your name on it? That's just silly.
I should have said "If I had been foolish enough to claim that I knew it all because I had the certification.....
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All fair points, but the reason I submitted my posts was because of the way you put Iranal down so easily without a proper explanation. Now that you have clarified your initial comments, we are more enlightened, but from my personal experience I know how demoralising it is to be knocked back by employers time and time again after all the effort put in. On top of that, your original post made it sound as if the qualification on its own was relatively worthless and that he should not bother.
DavidCrow wrote:
dundealing wrote: If I had been foolish enough to claim to be worth the certification, I would not have lasted a week. This makes no sense. Why would you say you were not worthy a certification with your name on it? That's just silly.
I should have said "If I had been foolish enough to claim that I knew it all because I had the certification.....
dundealing wrote:
the way you put Iranal down so easily without a proper explanation.
Read it again. In no uncertain terms did I put him down.
dundealing wrote:
...I know how demoralising it is to be knocked back by employers time and time again after all the effort put in.
And why do you suppose this is?
dundealing wrote:
On top of that, your original post made it sound as if the qualification...
Being qualified and being certified are not the same thing. Having a certification does not make you qualified.
dundealing wrote:
...on its own was relatively worthless and that he should not bother.
I formed an opinion based on the little bit of information he provided. I may very well be wrong about his intent, but I've not encountered any examples to support that.
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
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dundealing wrote:
the way you put Iranal down so easily without a proper explanation.
Read it again. In no uncertain terms did I put him down.
dundealing wrote:
...I know how demoralising it is to be knocked back by employers time and time again after all the effort put in.
And why do you suppose this is?
dundealing wrote:
On top of that, your original post made it sound as if the qualification...
Being qualified and being certified are not the same thing. Having a certification does not make you qualified.
dundealing wrote:
...on its own was relatively worthless and that he should not bother.
I formed an opinion based on the little bit of information he provided. I may very well be wrong about his intent, but I've not encountered any examples to support that.
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb
Paper certifications don't do much for the industry. Why get certified in something you have no experience in or knowledge of? Would you hire a doctor or auto mechanic who had no experience outside of a classroom? I would hope not. What does "being certified" in something mean to you or a prospective employer? The above quote from you original post sounds very much like "Why bother? It isn't going to do you any good at all. Give up now because no-one wants your qualifications" That is why I posted my replies. It certainly did not sound like encouragement to me. However, I am not going to get involved in a p***ing contest over this. I wish Iranal every success in becoming certified and I hope it leads to becoming qualified too.
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Paper certifications don't do much for the industry. Why get certified in something you have no experience in or knowledge of? Would you hire a doctor or auto mechanic who had no experience outside of a classroom? I would hope not. What does "being certified" in something mean to you or a prospective employer? The above quote from you original post sounds very much like "Why bother? It isn't going to do you any good at all. Give up now because no-one wants your qualifications" That is why I posted my replies. It certainly did not sound like encouragement to me. However, I am not going to get involved in a p***ing contest over this. I wish Iranal every success in becoming certified and I hope it leads to becoming qualified too.
dundealing wrote:
The above quote from you original post sounds very much like "Why bother? It isn't going to do you any good at all. Give up now because no-one wants your qualifications"
My initial post (i.e., "Paper certifications don't do much for the industry.") was not a reflection of, or an attack on, irinal. That was up to him to decide if it was an accurate assessment of his intentions. Ever heard the saying, "If the shoe fits, wear it?" That would be like me saying, "I do not like yellow houses." and you inferring from that, "I own a yellow house so you must not like me." As far as the rest of that quote goes, you mustn't take it out of context. Remember that I was making my assumption based on the information (or lack thereof) that irinal provided. It appeared to me that his intent was to read a book, get certified, and then start searching for a job, all the while wearing the certification on his sleeve. That is what I do not agree with.
dundealing wrote:
It certainly did not sound like encouragement to me.
At that point in time, it was not meant to be. Had he clarified his position, by letting us know that it was not his intent to misguide or misrepresent, I would probably be the first to offer him some useful suggestions.
"Take only what you need and leave the land as you found it." - Native American Proverb