Religion A Vs Religion B
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Josh Gray wrote:
how can you expect to have a rational discussion?
It would be rational to acknowledge that only one religion is responsible for the bulk of the violence occuring on the planet at the moment. It is irrational to witness Islamic terrorism and immediately being pointing fingers at all religions in general. Until we hold the proponents of Islam repsonsible for their extremist elements, precisely as we do Christianity, rationality is a moot point. To not do so is nothing more than allowing the secularists to use Islamic terrorism to prmoote their own anti-religion agenda.
Wierd. I'm logged in, but my post was anonymous "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom." -- modified at 23:09 Sunday 23rd October, 2005
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As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell. As a human being, I don't think it's my job to remind them of that in a confronting way, or act as if it means I can look down on them, or anyone else. I think that the real problem is self righteousness on the part of some ( not pointing any fingers here ), and the desire to shore up ones own faith by attacking others. I don't see that as something Jesus would have done, and it's not something I would want to be doing. But I also understand that from the point of view of someone who does not have any religious belief, the whole thing looks doubly futile :-) It's sure a dumb thing to start wars over. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell.
As a Muslim, I believe that all Christians will go to hell. But at all the Muslims are reminding the others of what they believe in, doesn't matter if these others listen or not, Is that wrong ?.
Christian Graus wrote:
and the desire to shore up ones own faith by attacking others.
This is the best statment I've read in the forum today :).
Christian Graus wrote:
I don't see that as something Jesus would have done,
Good point, because, Jesus, and Mohammed are both from the GOD, and you believe what GOD told you by your Prophet.
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
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Christian Graus wrote:
As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell.
That nicely sums up the biggest issue I have with all the orgainzed religions I am familiar with: No matter how merciful the particular God is adverised to be, he has no mercy for those raised in a different belief, even if they were in all other respects model human beings. I find that so preposterous and fundamentally unfair, that I conclude all religions are wrong. This belief that all other faiths are flawed to the point of damnation is what leads to justifying any outrage in the name of one's religion, and is the cause of much of mankind's hatred of fellow men. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Rob Graham wrote:
No matter how merciful the particular God is adverised to be, he has no mercy for those raised in a different belief, even if they were in all other respects model human beings. I find that so preposterous and fundamentally unfair, that I conclude all religions are wrong.
Well, you're free to decide that. However, I think you've got the cart before the horse. Being 'raised in a religion' is irrelevant. People who go to church because their parents did, and don't think about it for themselves, are probably not headed anywhere great either. The point of Christianity to me is that God made us, and made us able to choose for ourselves to live forever. If you don't choose to live, is it God's fault that you die ? No.
Rob Graham wrote:
flawed to the point of damnation
No, that's not what I believe. I believe that by definition of following someone other than Jesus, a person can't possibly have accepted His offer of life. Because they don't choose to live, they will die. That they are not flawed as people is the point I wanted to make ( although I knew that point would be quickly lost )
Rob Graham wrote:
what leads to justifying any outrage in the name of one's religion, and is the cause of much of mankind's hatred of fellow men.
It's more true that leaders who want to start war use religion often to give the common man a reason to die needlessly, and to kill people who are no different to them. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell.
As a Muslim, I believe that all Christians will go to hell. But at all the Muslims are reminding the others of what they believe in, doesn't matter if these others listen or not, Is that wrong ?.
Christian Graus wrote:
and the desire to shore up ones own faith by attacking others.
This is the best statment I've read in the forum today :).
Christian Graus wrote:
I don't see that as something Jesus would have done,
Good point, because, Jesus, and Mohammed are both from the GOD, and you believe what GOD told you by your Prophet.
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
LongHC wrote:
As a Muslim, I believe that all Christians will go to hell
By definition :-)
LongHC wrote:
Is that wrong ?.
I'm not sure, I can't work out what you were saying.
LongHC wrote:
Good point, because, Jesus, and Mohammed are both from the GOD, and you believe what GOD told you by your Prophet.
I plainly don't believe Mohammed was from God, in fact, I believe that Jesus warned against Mohammeds teachings. You can't follow Mohammed and believe in Jesus, any more than I can follow Jesus and believe Mohammed. What I meant was, Jesus didn't seek to attack people, He was quick to attack false ideas, but as quick to love the people who believed them. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell. As a human being, I don't think it's my job to remind them of that in a confronting way, or act as if it means I can look down on them, or anyone else. I think that the real problem is self righteousness on the part of some ( not pointing any fingers here ), and the desire to shore up ones own faith by attacking others. I don't see that as something Jesus would have done, and it's not something I would want to be doing. But I also understand that from the point of view of someone who does not have any religious belief, the whole thing looks doubly futile :-) It's sure a dumb thing to start wars over. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell.
and where will all christians go?in Casino? MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
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Christian Graus wrote:
As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell.
and where will all christians go?in Casino? MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
and where will all christians go?in Casino?
I've just been to Vegas, and it looked pretty much like hell to me. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
As a Christian, I believe all Muslims will go to hell.
That nicely sums up the biggest issue I have with all the orgainzed religions I am familiar with: No matter how merciful the particular God is adverised to be, he has no mercy for those raised in a different belief, even if they were in all other respects model human beings. I find that so preposterous and fundamentally unfair, that I conclude all religions are wrong. This belief that all other faiths are flawed to the point of damnation is what leads to justifying any outrage in the name of one's religion, and is the cause of much of mankind's hatred of fellow men. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Wierd. I'm logged in, but my post was anonymous "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom." -- modified at 23:09 Sunday 23rd October, 2005
It's OK Stan, I still guessed it was probably you :P FWIW, I agree. It's wrong to blame all Muslims for terrorism, it's just as wrong to be scared to admit that on some level, Islam is tied to the problem, regardless of if that's fair or not. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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There is no hell in Judism. If you do the right thing you go to heaven. If you dont its all over. I kinda like that
To be honest, that's pretty much how I read the NT also. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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LongHC wrote:
As a Muslim, I believe that all Christians will go to hell
By definition :-)
LongHC wrote:
Is that wrong ?.
I'm not sure, I can't work out what you were saying.
LongHC wrote:
Good point, because, Jesus, and Mohammed are both from the GOD, and you believe what GOD told you by your Prophet.
I plainly don't believe Mohammed was from God, in fact, I believe that Jesus warned against Mohammeds teachings. You can't follow Mohammed and believe in Jesus, any more than I can follow Jesus and believe Mohammed. What I meant was, Jesus didn't seek to attack people, He was quick to attack false ideas, but as quick to love the people who believed them. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
I plainly don't believe Mohammed was from God,
He is absolutely.
Christian Graus wrote:
I believe that Jesus warned against Mohammeds teachings.
He said that Mohammed will come, And they have to follow him.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus didn't seek to attack people,
Neither do Mohammed.
Christian Graus wrote:
He was quick to attack false ideas,
Also Mohammed did, but let me ask you something, if everyone here is saying that Jesus is right, and Mohammed is wrong, so... , How many FALSE thing the Chrisitians are doing now, comparing to how much the Muslims do ?
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
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This thread started me thinking... ..what a waste of time. "My old book of fairytales is better than your old book of fairytales". "People who dont beleive that my old book of fairytales is the only right one are bad people". etc etc. Given that religion is based on Faith, a non-rational concept, how can you expect to have a rational discussion? Some peoples 'true colours' have really come out.
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It's OK Stan, I still guessed it was probably you :P FWIW, I agree. It's wrong to blame all Muslims for terrorism, it's just as wrong to be scared to admit that on some level, Islam is tied to the problem, regardless of if that's fair or not. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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To be honest, that's pretty much how I read the NT also. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Anonymous wrote:
How about this, Christians prove there is no Allah, and A.A. prove there is an Allah.
If I said once I have said it many times. Tell that to the Christian Arabs :sigh: Anyway talking about Creed should be interesting except I dont think this[or possibly any] forum is the place to do it, as it will quickly degenrate. Quran Translation Intro Discover -- modified at 23:36 Sunday 23rd October, 2005
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Christian Graus wrote:
I plainly don't believe Mohammed was from God,
He is absolutely.
Christian Graus wrote:
I believe that Jesus warned against Mohammeds teachings.
He said that Mohammed will come, And they have to follow him.
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus didn't seek to attack people,
Neither do Mohammed.
Christian Graus wrote:
He was quick to attack false ideas,
Also Mohammed did, but let me ask you something, if everyone here is saying that Jesus is right, and Mohammed is wrong, so... , How many FALSE thing the Chrisitians are doing now, comparing to how much the Muslims do ?
"Praying." Is this only what I can do for him ?
LongHC wrote:
He is absolutely.
Well, as I said at the start, you're wrong, but I respect your right to be wrong.
LongHC wrote:
He said that Mohammed will come, And they have to follow him.
Where ? Seriously, I'm interested. Are you sure this isn't just something that you've been told, because I am certain there is no place in the Bible that could remotely be viewed to say this.
LongHC wrote:
Neither do Mohammed.
Or Buddha, or my neighbour. That doesn't prove someone is from God. My point was just that as a Christian, I should follow Jesus' example.
LongHC wrote:
if everyone here is saying that Jesus is right, and Mohammed is wrong
I think I'm the first person so far to actually say that categorically.
LongHC wrote:
How many FALSE thing the Chrisitians are doing now,
A lot, no argument from me.
LongHC wrote:
comparing to how much the Muslims do ?
I'd say they run neck and neck, although, I'm not sure how many people nowadays are killing in the name of Jesus ( although I don't dispute this has happened in the past ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Rob Graham wrote:
No matter how merciful the particular God is adverised to be, he has no mercy for those raised in a different belief, even if they were in all other respects model human beings. I find that so preposterous and fundamentally unfair, that I conclude all religions are wrong.
Well, you're free to decide that. However, I think you've got the cart before the horse. Being 'raised in a religion' is irrelevant. People who go to church because their parents did, and don't think about it for themselves, are probably not headed anywhere great either. The point of Christianity to me is that God made us, and made us able to choose for ourselves to live forever. If you don't choose to live, is it God's fault that you die ? No.
Rob Graham wrote:
flawed to the point of damnation
No, that's not what I believe. I believe that by definition of following someone other than Jesus, a person can't possibly have accepted His offer of life. Because they don't choose to live, they will die. That they are not flawed as people is the point I wanted to make ( although I knew that point would be quickly lost )
Rob Graham wrote:
what leads to justifying any outrage in the name of one's religion, and is the cause of much of mankind's hatred of fellow men.
It's more true that leaders who want to start war use religion often to give the common man a reason to die needlessly, and to kill people who are no different to them. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
People who go to church because their parents did,
I certainly did not mean "raised in another faith' in that simplistic a fashion. What of those never exposed to Christianity (there are many...)? Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives? How is such a god merciful, or just or even just fair? Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
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And there lies the problem. Its all open to interpretation. Some people interpret it as a justification for violence and hatred.
That's certainly true, no argument from me. It can plainly be misinterpreted. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
and where will all christians go?in Casino?
I've just been to Vegas, and it looked pretty much like hell to me. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
I've just been to Vegas, and it looked pretty much like hell to me.
get used to of it dude,you have to lead a long life in environment like that MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan
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Christian Graus wrote:
People who go to church because their parents did,
I certainly did not mean "raised in another faith' in that simplistic a fashion. What of those never exposed to Christianity (there are many...)? Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives? How is such a god merciful, or just or even just fair? Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Rob Graham wrote:
Does God or Jesus bar them immortality on the grounds of accidental ignorance? Even if they lived exemplary lives?
No, the Bible actually says that such people will in fact be judged according to the sort of life they lead, not knowing about the Gospel. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++