Free speech is an important right, but, ...
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You're not old enough to have a political or religious affiliation because you don't have enough life experience to form an educated opinion. When you *are* old enough to hate something more important than selected vegetables, we'll let you know. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Not at all. I don't know if you're an American or not, but freedom of speech is our most cherished right. Votaire once said, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." That sums up the American attitude towards freedom of speech better than anything I've ever read. Free speech zones suck. Those who would restrict free speech are anti- American.
Would agree then to defend the right for an Al-Qeada member to speak in the US, or for a TV channel to glorify 9/11, in the name of the Freedom of Speech?
Jim A. Johnson wrote:
Those who would restrict free speech are anti- American.
I am glad to see you consider McCarthy and his followers are anti-americans :)
Jim A. Johnson wrote:
Votaire once said, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."
And the same Voltaire said also "A witty saying proves nothing" ;-P
See I try, and look up To the sky, but my eyes burn Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Is the BNP similar to the Nazis? Do they ask for genocide for instance? :confused:
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Not that most of their illiterate constituency listen to the programmes
Don't they progress anyway, getting more and more votes? :~
See I try, and look up To the sky, but my eyes burn Fold with us! ¤ flickr
K(arl) wrote:
Is the BNP similar to the Nazis?
Politically they are economically left wing, as their primary constituency is the poorer end of the white working class. They are racist and authoritarian however. I assume this is probably similar to Jean-Marie Le Penn's lot (though the BNP don't come second in general elections..)
K(arl) wrote:
Do they ask for genocide for instance
Not in public, but neither did the Nazis.
K(arl) wrote:
Don't they progress anyway, getting more and more votes?
Nope, at least not significantly, this isn't France :P. They have a few council seats in economically deprived ex mill towns with large populations of recent (1970's) immigrants. One vote is one too many though. Ryan
O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold Are but a cheat contrived by men of old, Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust And died in baseness—and their law is dust. al-Ma'arri (973-1057)
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You have a good point. I guess 60 years seems so long because I am young.
Pumk1nh3ad illustrates that Intelligent Design oft goes awry. - Ed Gadziemski You did'nt get it. I over estimated you. - Josh Gray
Think more of what happened barly 10 years ago in the old Yugoslavia. Exactly the same mindset. Attempted genoside. This is what can happen to any country at any time if we dont see the signs and stop it. Jon
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K(arl) wrote:
Is the BNP similar to the Nazis?
Politically they are economically left wing, as their primary constituency is the poorer end of the white working class. They are racist and authoritarian however. I assume this is probably similar to Jean-Marie Le Penn's lot (though the BNP don't come second in general elections..)
K(arl) wrote:
Do they ask for genocide for instance
Not in public, but neither did the Nazis.
K(arl) wrote:
Don't they progress anyway, getting more and more votes?
Nope, at least not significantly, this isn't France :P. They have a few council seats in economically deprived ex mill towns with large populations of recent (1970's) immigrants. One vote is one too many though. Ryan
O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold Are but a cheat contrived by men of old, Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust And died in baseness—and their law is dust. al-Ma'arri (973-1057)
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I assume this is probably similar to Jean-Marie Le Penn's lot
I wouldn't compare the Front National with Nazism, I would rather compare with Mussolini's fascism. Nazism has this particularity to be racist and bases its policy on ethnic ground.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Not in public, but neither did the Nazis
It was pretty close. From the Nazi program: "Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race." "We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race." And in "Mein Kampf": "These tactics are based on an accurate estimation of human frailties and must lead to success, with almost mathematical certainty, unless the other side also learns how to fight poison gas with poison gas. The weaker natures must be told that here it is a case of to be or not to be"
Ryan Roberts wrote:
though the BNP don't come second in general elections
And sometimes Le Pen's party even comes first :doh::doh::doh:
Ryan Roberts wrote:
this isn't France
Shame on us :sigh:
See I try, and look up To the sky, but my eyes burn Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Talking about freedom of speech, this[^] Napster add apparently isn't allowed in the US, but is in the UK (though I have yet to see it on TV). Might be worth 30 seconds of your time... :)
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Crime exists everywhere and in every group. You can choose to see it, or ignore it. Most people choose to ignore it as long is it could anyway relate to themselves.
How the hell can people continue to make such stupid comments? If you will pull your head out of your fat ass for long enough to actually read a few newspapers you will discover that every single instance you mentioned was punished to the full extent of the law. How does that represent ignoring anything? In our society 'Joe Normal" does'nt ignore anything, he demands fanatics be punished, he doesn't make heroes out of them. These continueing attempts to draw moral equivalency between western society and Islam is growing increasingly irksome. You, and your ilk, hate your own society for not being the Marxist utopia you wish it to be, so you try to establish false parallels between our society and others where no such parallels exist. Either that or you are a complete frigging idiot. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
Jeff Brickley's comment was way off because he missed the whole point that it's religion that provides the reason for the Muslims that strap bombs to their backs, whereas most if not all of the things Jeff talked about did not have anything directly to do with religion (I think :-O) But much of so-called Christianity has given us things like The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, and they even bless wars in modern times. Okay, but the same religion blesses the forces on both sides. Danny The stupidity of others amazes me!
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, apparently. I'm a Christian, FWIW, but I can find Old Testament verses that taken in isolation would infer exactly what these verses seem to imply.
Well, yes, like when the Israelites were to kill the Cannanites when they entered the promised land. But, you don't see Christians strapping on bombs and blowing up people in the name of God.
Pumk1nh3ad illustrates that Intelligent Design oft goes awry. - Ed Gadziemski You did'nt get it. I over estimated you. - Josh Gray
Strange that there doesn't appear to be any archaeological evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, and the cities which they are reported to have burnt to the ground when they returned have no layers of ash at the correct depth beneath them. Hmmm...makes you wonder if they ever left in the first place, or is the OT just making things up?
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Jeff Brickley's comment was way off because he missed the whole point that it's religion that provides the reason for the Muslims that strap bombs to their backs, whereas most if not all of the things Jeff talked about did not have anything directly to do with religion (I think :-O) But much of so-called Christianity has given us things like The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, and they even bless wars in modern times. Okay, but the same religion blesses the forces on both sides. Danny The stupidity of others amazes me!
bugDanny wrote:
The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition
So religion gets all the blame for that? There were no other political, economic, social forces at work aside from religion?
bugDanny wrote:
they even bless wars in modern times
Example? "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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bugDanny wrote:
The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition
So religion gets all the blame for that? There were no other political, economic, social forces at work aside from religion?
bugDanny wrote:
they even bless wars in modern times
Example? "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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No, Christians extremists don't strap on bomb, but they also blow people in the name of God: for instance Paul Hill, Ray Killen or "The Crusaders of Intolerance" who blew up a theater in Paris showing Martin Scorsese's 'The Last Temptation of Christ".
See I try, and look up To the sky, but my eyes burn Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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No. I disagree with the theory that you can effectively deal with primitivism and hate by limiting free speech! There are other ways to do it. For those who think European free speech laws are something civilized and that they are only used in clean cases, here's a controversial usage of "hate speech" laws from Sweden. 2004-JUN: Sweden: Pentecostal pastor convicted of hate speech: Sweden passed a constitutional amendment in 2002 which included sexual orientation in a list of groups protected from "unfavorable speech." The law protects heterosexuals, bisexuals and homosexuals equally. Sometime in 2003, Pastor Ake Green delivered a sermon at his Pentecostal church in Borgholk, Sweden. He allegedly described homosexuality as "abnormal, a horrible cancerous tumor in the body of society." He described them as "perverts, whose sexual drive the Devil has used as his strongest weapon against God." He was charged with inciting hatred against a group of people on the basis of their sexual orientation. Green was found guilty and sentenced to one month in prison. Public prosecutor Kjell Yngvesson is reported as saying: "One may have whatever religion one wishes, but [the sermon] is an attack on all fronts against homosexuals. Collecting Bible [verses] on this topic as he does makes this hate speech." Christianity Today magazine reported: "In his defense, the pastor said he merely wanted to make clear the biblical view on homosexuality, not to express disrespect." Green's lawyer said that the law and conviction violated the pastor's religious freedom. Soren Andersson, president of a Swedish federation for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights (RFSL), said that religious freedom never justifies offending people. He said: "Therefore, I cannot regard the sentence as an act of interference with freedom of religion." Regards, Tomaž
His speech falls under slander. He doesn't have anything to back up what he says, except the bible. According to law, the bible is not fact. You can say that you personally don't like homosexuals because of this and that - there's no law against that. You just can't categorically label them or individuals, as if what you are saying is fact. For instance, I could publish "I think Tomaz is an idiot", but I cannot publish "Tomaz is an idiot". -- Pictures[^] from my Japan trip.
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Would the NSDAP have been forbidden in 1930's Germany, WW2 might have been avoided.
See I try, and look up To the sky, but my eyes burn Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
I assume this is probably similar to Jean-Marie Le Penn's lot
I wouldn't compare the Front National with Nazism, I would rather compare with Mussolini's fascism. Nazism has this particularity to be racist and bases its policy on ethnic ground.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Not in public, but neither did the Nazis
It was pretty close. From the Nazi program: "Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race." "We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race." And in "Mein Kampf": "These tactics are based on an accurate estimation of human frailties and must lead to success, with almost mathematical certainty, unless the other side also learns how to fight poison gas with poison gas. The weaker natures must be told that here it is a case of to be or not to be"
Ryan Roberts wrote:
though the BNP don't come second in general elections
And sometimes Le Pen's party even comes first :doh::doh::doh:
Ryan Roberts wrote:
this isn't France
Shame on us :sigh:
See I try, and look up To the sky, but my eyes burn Fold with us! ¤ flickr
K(arl) wrote:
"These tactics are based on an accurate estimation of human frailties and must lead to success, with almost mathematical certainty, unless the other side also learns how to fight poison gas with poison gas. The weaker natures must be told that here it is a case of to be or not to be"
Never seen that one before.. I guess it was metaphorical at the time it was written?
K(arl) wrote:
Shame on us
In many ways French politics seems far preferable to the lack of differentiation between political parties in Britain. Not that I long for a resurgence of right wing populism, but a political culture that does more than bicker over micromanagement while extending control over the personal space of its subjects isn't exactly ideal. Case in point being the "Open debate" on policing the other night which was scheduled immediately after a 2 hour tear jerker about the victims of the most recent London bombings. Ryan
O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold Are but a cheat contrived by men of old, Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust And died in baseness—and their law is dust. al-Ma'arri (973-1057)
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
At that point in time, the church was those forces. Even the kings got down on their knees before the church.
But, being the state as well as the church, most of its motives can be largely interpreted as secular and not religious ones. The crusades were as much about economics as religion. Religion was merely a means of getting volunteers to fight for in an otherwise secular conflict. The middle east was of great strategic and economic importance to Europe. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
I feel that way toward muslims because their bible tells them to kill people of other religions.
Well, apparently. I'm a Christian, FWIW, but I can find Old Testament verses that taken in isolation would infer exactly what these verses seem to imply. However, I had the chance to talk to a Muslim recently about his beliefs, and I would have to say it's the most untenable religion I've ever heard of. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
I had the chance to talk to a Muslim recently about his beliefs, and I would have to say it's the most untenable religion I've ever heard of.
You must have never talked to a Mormon (Joseph Smith discoverd a lost book of the Bible in America in 1835 and became a prophet) or a Christian Scientist (Earth was seeded by aliens).
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They called themselves catholic, but they are these kind of catholics who refuses the conclusions of "Vatican II[^]" and want the mass said in Latin :doh:
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
According to some, catholics are not christians, they are heathens
The ones saying that are just a bunch of heretics asking for the stake! Beware Sinners, the punition of God is coming! Beware the Holy Inquisition! But I wander :)
See I try, and look up To the sky, but my eyes burn Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
And instead of them we'd have had.. the communist party?
Half of Europe was ruled by Communist dictatorships because of WW2...
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
let them speak, let them be heard, and let them be seen as fools
The problem is, many don't see them as fools! Hitler got over 40% of the votes in 1933, In Switzerland, the "Swiss People's Party" get 20% to 25% of the votes, in France the "Front National", get over 15% at each election...These guys are often populist demagogues, they offer the people what they want to hear, and it works! The 'recent' example of Germany shows us a democracy can be defeated by a party using democratic rules to finally defeat it (I could also mention the end of the First, Second and Third French Republics). A Democracy is not safe or immune because it is democratic.
See I try, and look up To the sky, but my eyes burn Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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bugDanny wrote:
The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition
So religion gets all the blame for that? There were no other political, economic, social forces at work aside from religion?
bugDanny wrote:
they even bless wars in modern times
Example? "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
Stan Shannon wrote:
So religion gets all the blame for that? There were no other political, economic, social forces at work aside from religion?
Not sure. Guess there could have been. The point I'm sure you got was, they were all done in the name of Christianity. Ghandi is claimed to have said, "The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians."
Stan Shannon wrote:
Example?
I don't have evidence here I can give you over a forum, but how often have you heard the phrase "God bless the troops". This doesn't only happen in America. And some church must be supporting the wars. How many Chaplains are on army bases or on Navy ships? Also, a specific war I remember reading about it World War II where Hitler had bishops or priests blessing the troops and so did other countries. Danny The stupidity of others amazes me!