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  4. Listen us otherwise...MS is threathend

Listen us otherwise...MS is threathend

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  • L Lost User

    As a capitalist myself (:-D), I agree. Industry regulators must have teeth, else the system will be abused.


    The Rob Blog
    Google Talk: robert.caldecott

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    Stan Shannon
    wrote on last edited by
    #7

    Regulated competition is something of an oxymoron. Competition is all about taking risks in a free market. Besides, the more power government has to regulate competition, the more vulnerable it is to corruption from bribes. So government regulation is no more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation is. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot." -- modified at 11:18 Friday 23rd December, 2005

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    • A Adnan Siddiqi

      Things are not going fine for Mr.Gates,European Comission has threathend[^] to pay 2m euro per day untill MS gets agreed to give access to its systems. i wonder what kinda access is being demaned,is it applicable for OS only other products like Office which is not following Open Standards format[^] MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan

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      Red Stateler
      wrote on last edited by
      #8

      Microsoft should just pull all operations out of Europe and send them back to the Reneissance. After all, that was their peak.

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      • S Stan Shannon

        Regulated competition is something of an oxymoron. Competition is all about taking risks in a free market. Besides, the more power government has to regulate competition, the more vulnerable it is to corruption from bribes. So government regulation is no more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation is. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot." -- modified at 11:18 Friday 23rd December, 2005

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        vincent reynolds 0
        wrote on last edited by
        #9

        Yes, in an ideal system, companies would make and sell their products (and services), the market would judge them on merit, and the company with the best product would survive. However, in the real world, some companies use methods available only to those who are already successful to stomp on competitors before the marketplace has the chance to judge. This makes the barrier for market entry higher than it should be, and is where regulation should come in (and pretty much where it should stop). I guess what I'm saying is that I mostly agree with you, but believe that limited government regulation is ever so slightly more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation. I also recognize that, where the government is involved, "limited regulation" will always eventually become an oxymoron. By the way, I thought the creative name changes were great fun, and don't think you should stop just because someone wants to filter your messages. My wife especially liked "Stanta Claws" :).

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        • A Adnan Siddiqi

          Things are not going fine for Mr.Gates,European Comission has threathend[^] to pay 2m euro per day untill MS gets agreed to give access to its systems. i wonder what kinda access is being demaned,is it applicable for OS only other products like Office which is not following Open Standards format[^] MyBlogs http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan

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          Allah On Acid
          wrote on last edited by
          #10

          Microsoft is an American company, the EU can go to hell. If the EU doesnt approve of the way they do things, they can make Microsoft stop doing buisness in Europe, not fine them. Bill Gates is running a legitimate buisness, and he has every right to do it the way he wants. If he doesn't want to let competitors copy his work, then that is his right. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State." -- modified at 11:29 Friday 23rd December, 2005

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          • R Red Stateler

            Microsoft should just pull all operations out of Europe and send them back to the Reneissance. After all, that was their peak.

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            vincent reynolds 0
            wrote on last edited by
            #11

            You're absolutely right! If not for Microsoft, I'm sure the people of Europe would all be writing their programs on cave walls in berry juice. As usual, your post reflects the views of a xenophobic, reactionary crack-monkey. If Microsoft pulled their sales and support from Europe -- which is all they could do at the moment -- European companies would live with third-party support while they suffered the inconvenience and expense of transitioning to open source or Apple solutions. Probably open source. And Microsoft would lose a buttload -- metric buttload, in most countries -- of sales.

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            • V vincent reynolds 0

              Yes, in an ideal system, companies would make and sell their products (and services), the market would judge them on merit, and the company with the best product would survive. However, in the real world, some companies use methods available only to those who are already successful to stomp on competitors before the marketplace has the chance to judge. This makes the barrier for market entry higher than it should be, and is where regulation should come in (and pretty much where it should stop). I guess what I'm saying is that I mostly agree with you, but believe that limited government regulation is ever so slightly more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation. I also recognize that, where the government is involved, "limited regulation" will always eventually become an oxymoron. By the way, I thought the creative name changes were great fun, and don't think you should stop just because someone wants to filter your messages. My wife especially liked "Stanta Claws" :).

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              Stan Shannon
              wrote on last edited by
              #12

              vincent.reynolds wrote:

              However, in the real world, some companies use methods available only to those who are already successful to stomp on competitors before the marketplace has the chance to judge.

              I agree, but as we all know, those same companies can also influence the decisions of government. I have extreme doubts about government's ability to restrain itself from punishing companies that are having success competing fairly. What exactly is the measure that a government would apply to distinquish between innovation and unfairness? Government is at least as capable of being unfair as any corporation is. For the most part, I think the market is a much safer management mechanism than government is - not to say its perfect and doesn't need some occasional government attention.

              vincent.reynolds wrote:

              By the way, I thought the creative name changes were great fun, and don't think you should stop just because someone wants to filter your messages. My wife especially liked "Stanta Claws"

              I know, but it really isn't fair to those who want to filter me. Otherwise, I need to stop responding to their posts, which I would rather not do. (After all, I am something of a fucking troll :laugh: ) "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."

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              • V vincent reynolds 0

                You're absolutely right! If not for Microsoft, I'm sure the people of Europe would all be writing their programs on cave walls in berry juice. As usual, your post reflects the views of a xenophobic, reactionary crack-monkey. If Microsoft pulled their sales and support from Europe -- which is all they could do at the moment -- European companies would live with third-party support while they suffered the inconvenience and expense of transitioning to open source or Apple solutions. Probably open source. And Microsoft would lose a buttload -- metric buttload, in most countries -- of sales.

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                Red Stateler
                wrote on last edited by
                #13

                Of course they would lose sales, and they would never do that because it's a huge market. But the fact of the matter is that companies avoid doing business in countries that are hostile to them (the same goes to US states). It's bad for the country (or state or whatever) when the government is not business-friendly, because it eventually reaches a point where the efforts are not worth the return. That's what is happening in much of Latin America. If they switch to open source or Apple (:laugh:), they would suffer. Microsoft offers more than just "software" by existing. They offer a common platform that has become very high quality in recent years. That's extremely valuable from a business perspective. And yes...if not for American technology, Europe would be 100 years behind what it is now. It's not our fault they've lost their intellectual edge.

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                • S Stan Shannon

                  Regulated competition is something of an oxymoron. Competition is all about taking risks in a free market. Besides, the more power government has to regulate competition, the more vulnerable it is to corruption from bribes. So government regulation is no more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation is. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot." -- modified at 11:18 Friday 23rd December, 2005

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                  Lost User
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #14

                  Stan Shannon wrote:

                  Regulated competition is something of an oxymoron. Competition is all about taking risks in a free market. Besides, the more power government has to regulate competition, the more vulnerable it is to corruption from bribes. So government regulation is no more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation is.

                  So can you explain the US Government's stand on subsidising the US farmers and continuing the uneven playing field? Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004

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                  • L Lost User

                    Stan Shannon wrote:

                    Regulated competition is something of an oxymoron. Competition is all about taking risks in a free market. Besides, the more power government has to regulate competition, the more vulnerable it is to corruption from bribes. So government regulation is no more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation is.

                    So can you explain the US Government's stand on subsidising the US farmers and continuing the uneven playing field? Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004

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                    Red Stateler
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #15

                    Corporate Welfare.

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                    • L Lost User

                      Stan Shannon wrote:

                      Regulated competition is something of an oxymoron. Competition is all about taking risks in a free market. Besides, the more power government has to regulate competition, the more vulnerable it is to corruption from bribes. So government regulation is no more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation is.

                      So can you explain the US Government's stand on subsidising the US farmers and continuing the uneven playing field? Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004

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                      vincent reynolds 0
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #16

                      Corporate farm interests have powerful lobbyists, and make substantial campaign contributions.

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                      • R Red Stateler

                        Corporate Welfare.

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                        vincent reynolds 0
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #17

                        Or at least it would be if subsidies actually went to the poor.

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                        • L Lost User

                          Stan Shannon wrote:

                          Regulated competition is something of an oxymoron. Competition is all about taking risks in a free market. Besides, the more power government has to regulate competition, the more vulnerable it is to corruption from bribes. So government regulation is no more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation is.

                          So can you explain the US Government's stand on subsidising the US farmers and continuing the uneven playing field? Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004

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                          Rob Graham
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #18

                          Michael Martin wrote:

                          So can you explain the US Government's stand on subsidising the US farmers and continuing the uneven playing field?

                          We're just imitating the French...:-D Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke

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                          • L Lost User

                            Stan Shannon wrote:

                            Regulated competition is something of an oxymoron. Competition is all about taking risks in a free market. Besides, the more power government has to regulate competition, the more vulnerable it is to corruption from bribes. So government regulation is no more an assurance of fair competition than normal market regulation is.

                            So can you explain the US Government's stand on subsidising the US farmers and continuing the uneven playing field? Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004

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                            Stan Shannon
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #19

                            Michael Martin wrote:

                            So can you explain the US Government's stand on subsidising the US farmers and continuing the uneven playing field?

                            I would almost say that sort of proves my point. Let government start controling an industry, and that is what you get. Government by definition cannot regulate competition, it can only eliminate it. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."

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                            • R Red Stateler

                              Of course they would lose sales, and they would never do that because it's a huge market. But the fact of the matter is that companies avoid doing business in countries that are hostile to them (the same goes to US states). It's bad for the country (or state or whatever) when the government is not business-friendly, because it eventually reaches a point where the efforts are not worth the return. That's what is happening in much of Latin America. If they switch to open source or Apple (:laugh:), they would suffer. Microsoft offers more than just "software" by existing. They offer a common platform that has become very high quality in recent years. That's extremely valuable from a business perspective. And yes...if not for American technology, Europe would be 100 years behind what it is now. It's not our fault they've lost their intellectual edge.

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                              vincent reynolds 0
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #20

                              espeir wrote:

                              Of course they would lose sales, and they would never do that because it's a huge market. But the fact of the matter is that companies avoid doing business in countries that are hostile to them (the same goes to US states). It's bad for the country (or state or whatever) when the government is not business-friendly, because it eventually reaches a point where the efforts are not worth the return. That's what is happening in much of Latin America.

                              So what you're saying is that they would never pull out of the European market, or maybe they would. I applaud your reasoning skills [golf clap]!

                              espeir wrote:

                              If they switch to open source or Apple (), they would suffer. Microsoft offers more than just "software" by existing. They offer a common platform that has become very high quality in recent years. That's extremely valuable from a business perspective.

                              Whether or not businesses decide to stick with the Microsoft platform depends on cost/benefit, keeping in mind that cost includes licensing and maintenance. Countries have to be business-friendly, but so does Microsoft. The home user has other considerations as well, such as malware, DRM trampling on fair use, and out-of-pocket cost. Other platforms address these concerns in different ways, and to differing degrees. Overall, for most businesses, Microsoft still has the advantage, but that could change. Most home users are better off buying a Mac.

                              espeir wrote:

                              And yes...if not for American technology, Europe would be 100 years behind what it is now. It's not our fault they've lost their intellectual edge.

                              I'm guessing you're not big on history, research, rational thought, or the right of neurons to assemble. Google "European inventions" sometime.

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                              • A Allah On Acid

                                Microsoft is an American company, the EU can go to hell. If the EU doesnt approve of the way they do things, they can make Microsoft stop doing buisness in Europe, not fine them. Bill Gates is running a legitimate buisness, and he has every right to do it the way he wants. If he doesn't want to let competitors copy his work, then that is his right. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State." -- modified at 11:29 Friday 23rd December, 2005

                                R Offline
                                R Offline
                                Rohde
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #21

                                It's the other way round. Either MS follows the laws and regulations in EU or it can take its business elsewhere (or pay fines).

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                                • V vincent reynolds 0

                                  espeir wrote:

                                  Of course they would lose sales, and they would never do that because it's a huge market. But the fact of the matter is that companies avoid doing business in countries that are hostile to them (the same goes to US states). It's bad for the country (or state or whatever) when the government is not business-friendly, because it eventually reaches a point where the efforts are not worth the return. That's what is happening in much of Latin America.

                                  So what you're saying is that they would never pull out of the European market, or maybe they would. I applaud your reasoning skills [golf clap]!

                                  espeir wrote:

                                  If they switch to open source or Apple (), they would suffer. Microsoft offers more than just "software" by existing. They offer a common platform that has become very high quality in recent years. That's extremely valuable from a business perspective.

                                  Whether or not businesses decide to stick with the Microsoft platform depends on cost/benefit, keeping in mind that cost includes licensing and maintenance. Countries have to be business-friendly, but so does Microsoft. The home user has other considerations as well, such as malware, DRM trampling on fair use, and out-of-pocket cost. Other platforms address these concerns in different ways, and to differing degrees. Overall, for most businesses, Microsoft still has the advantage, but that could change. Most home users are better off buying a Mac.

                                  espeir wrote:

                                  And yes...if not for American technology, Europe would be 100 years behind what it is now. It's not our fault they've lost their intellectual edge.

                                  I'm guessing you're not big on history, research, rational thought, or the right of neurons to assemble. Google "European inventions" sometime.

                                  L Offline
                                  L Offline
                                  Lost User
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #22

                                  vincent.reynolds wrote:

                                  Google "European inventions" sometime.

                                  Be sure to use your computer (a US invention) connected to the internet (a US invention) to access Google (a US company) to find all those recent European inventions. ;P Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as a sheep.

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                                  • L Lost User

                                    vincent.reynolds wrote:

                                    Google "European inventions" sometime.

                                    Be sure to use your computer (a US invention) connected to the internet (a US invention) to access Google (a US company) to find all those recent European inventions. ;P Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as a sheep.

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                                    Vincent Reynolds
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #23

                                    Yeah, we kick major ass on the computer side of things :). Actually, our culture makes us very effective inventors overall. I was just pointing out to the troll that the USA didn't exactly pull Europe out of the dark ages.

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                                    • R Red Stateler

                                      Of course they would lose sales, and they would never do that because it's a huge market. But the fact of the matter is that companies avoid doing business in countries that are hostile to them (the same goes to US states). It's bad for the country (or state or whatever) when the government is not business-friendly, because it eventually reaches a point where the efforts are not worth the return. That's what is happening in much of Latin America. If they switch to open source or Apple (:laugh:), they would suffer. Microsoft offers more than just "software" by existing. They offer a common platform that has become very high quality in recent years. That's extremely valuable from a business perspective. And yes...if not for American technology, Europe would be 100 years behind what it is now. It's not our fault they've lost their intellectual edge.

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                                      Colin Angus Mackay
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #24

                                      espeir wrote:

                                      if not for American technology, Europe would be 100 years behind what it is now. It's not our fault they've lost their intellectual edge.

                                      Let's see what I can come up with off the top of my head: * First public demonstration of Television by John Logie Baird. (Also, he came up with ideas and simple demonstrations for high definition TV, videos, video phone, and colour TV, but died in 1946 before the research could be furthered) * Robert Watson-Watt demonstrated the Detection and location of aircraft by radio methods - now known as Radar. * Alexander Fleming discovered Anti-biotics in the 1920s * John Shepherd-Barron, in the 1960s, came up with the concept of a self-service machine which would dispense paper currency with 24/7 availability. This was the Automated Teller Machine (ATM). And that is just the major stuff from my own little corner of Europe* in the last 100 years. Also, it is interesting that there seem to be an awful lot of Scots working at Microsoft. The SQL Server 2005 team have quite a few just to themselves. * Scotland, pop. 5 million


                                      My: Blog | Photos "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius

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                                      • L Lost User

                                        vincent.reynolds wrote:

                                        Google "European inventions" sometime.

                                        Be sure to use your computer (a US invention) connected to the internet (a US invention) to access Google (a US company) to find all those recent European inventions. ;P Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as a sheep.

                                        C Offline
                                        C Offline
                                        Colin Angus Mackay
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #25

                                        Mike Mullikin wrote:

                                        computer

                                        Remind me where Babbage (inventor of the first programmable computer) was from? And Augusta Ada King, Countess of Lovelace? (inventor of the first programming language)


                                        My: Blog | Photos "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius

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                                        • C Colin Angus Mackay

                                          Mike Mullikin wrote:

                                          computer

                                          Remind me where Babbage (inventor of the first programmable computer) was from? And Augusta Ada King, Countess of Lovelace? (inventor of the first programming language)


                                          My: Blog | Photos "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius

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                                          Lost User
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #26

                                          I was joking. Like Linus Torvalds is fond of saying "We all stand on the shoulders of giants." Better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as a sheep.

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