If you wouldn't follow Hitler, why follow God?
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John Fisher wrote: Realistically speaking, the only other choice is your whim or mine, or the collective human opinion. Once again, it is the one who can enforce the standard that makes the standard which matters. The point is that if human suffering is much higher than it needs to be just because God so determines it, then God is cruel on any normal understanding of those words. John Fisher wrote: Wrong. If that statement is correct, you are equally stuck in a tautological mindset. Your alternative definition of cruelty or goodness or love is based on something equally arbitrary (according to your standard), and in fact is less valid since it changes with the collective opinion of people. Wrong. The issue is whether moral criteria are specified independently of the actions being evaluated. For example, if you write down a definition of cruelty and then evaluate actions according to that definition, then your evaluation will depend on what the actions are. By contrast, if you make a particular being's actions good by definition, then your evaluation is independent of that being's actions and your apparent evaluation of those actions is a charade. Who lays down the criteria is irrelevant for present purposes. If God laid down a set of criteria and invited evaluation of his actions in terms of that criteria, then the evaluation process would be of some interest, even if rather rigged. We could see if God was behaving consistently with his declared criteria or not. This is quite different from saying that whatever God does is right by definition. John Fisher wrote: God has more than one attribute. He doesn't do everything from an obvious attitude of love. That's the whole point of me telling you that He is also just and holy. Just like humans who punish criminals aren't necessarily doing it because the love the criminal, God punishes sin because it requires punishment. Requires it why? And why does the punishment have to be so severe? You have no answer because you just accept whatever God does without any independent criteria of judgement. Grant the same acceptance to any other being and that being will be just, holy, loving etc. etc. John Fisher wrote: If I say that God is love, then show you the actions He says were loving actions, I have told you what love is. This is not a tautology, it is a definition. It is both. Ask yourself the following: In your scheme of things, is
John Carson wrote: The point is that if human suffering is much higher than it needs to be just because God so determines it, then God is cruel on any normal understanding of those words. No, the point is that you have no basis for deciding what "it needs to be". You have opinions and feelings, but no foundation for your choice. (Even if you decide to use cultural or popular belief, it's still just a bunch of opinions and feelings.) Please quit labelling my statements as tautological when 1) I have given reasons that they are not, and 2) your own basis is plainly tuatological. John Carson wrote: The issue is whether moral criteria are specified independently of the actions being evaluated. Amazingly, you are right. However, your application is way off base. With the above statement, you must next decide WHO is doing the evaluating. God is the only one in the position to properly enforce any moral standard. He gives us a standard to live by, which is modelled after His own character. John Carson wrote: Who lays down the criteria is irrelevant for present purposes. If God laid down a set of criteria and invited evaluation of his actions in terms of that criteria, then the evaluation process would be of some interest, even if rather rigged. We could see if God was behaving consistently with his declared criteria or not. Who lays down the criteria is critical to this discussion. God has the power to back up His standard, you don't. You are pitting your criteria against God's, then stating that yours is better than His for some unknown reason. Having not come up with a non-tautological reason for your own criteria, you cannot logically expect it from anyone else (even though it is available). John Carson wrote: This is quite different from saying that whatever God does is right by definition. Not when God's character is the reason for the standard. John Carson wrote: Requires it why? And why does the punishment have to be so severe? I have given parts of the answer already. If you really want to know, you can ask again. John Carson wrote: You have no answer because you just accept whatever God does without any independent criteria of judgement. False. God clearly defines certain behaviors as consistent with Himself. This standard has been and still is able to determine whether something
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John Carson wrote: The point is that if human suffering is much higher than it needs to be just because God so determines it, then God is cruel on any normal understanding of those words. No, the point is that you have no basis for deciding what "it needs to be". You have opinions and feelings, but no foundation for your choice. (Even if you decide to use cultural or popular belief, it's still just a bunch of opinions and feelings.) Please quit labelling my statements as tautological when 1) I have given reasons that they are not, and 2) your own basis is plainly tuatological. John Carson wrote: The issue is whether moral criteria are specified independently of the actions being evaluated. Amazingly, you are right. However, your application is way off base. With the above statement, you must next decide WHO is doing the evaluating. God is the only one in the position to properly enforce any moral standard. He gives us a standard to live by, which is modelled after His own character. John Carson wrote: Who lays down the criteria is irrelevant for present purposes. If God laid down a set of criteria and invited evaluation of his actions in terms of that criteria, then the evaluation process would be of some interest, even if rather rigged. We could see if God was behaving consistently with his declared criteria or not. Who lays down the criteria is critical to this discussion. God has the power to back up His standard, you don't. You are pitting your criteria against God's, then stating that yours is better than His for some unknown reason. Having not come up with a non-tautological reason for your own criteria, you cannot logically expect it from anyone else (even though it is available). John Carson wrote: This is quite different from saying that whatever God does is right by definition. Not when God's character is the reason for the standard. John Carson wrote: Requires it why? And why does the punishment have to be so severe? I have given parts of the answer already. If you really want to know, you can ask again. John Carson wrote: You have no answer because you just accept whatever God does without any independent criteria of judgement. False. God clearly defines certain behaviors as consistent with Himself. This standard has been and still is able to determine whether something
I regard my arguments on tautology as conclusive. You plainly don't have eyes to see, so I won't labour the point. You say that God gives us a standard to live by. You miss the point that my concerns are about the absence of a standard for God to live by. The God-driven attrocities reported in the Old Testament certainly don't meet the standard laid down in 1 Corinthians 13, from which God is apparently exempt. Let me address the issue you keep raising about my standards vs God's standards. In political science arguments over democracy vs autocracy, the question arises as to why the opinions of the unintelligent, uneducated, selfish etc. should count for the same as those with more admirable attributes. The answer I always give is that decision making has two elements 1. technical expertise, 2. the interests or objectives of the decision makers. The great virtue of democracy is that if the unintelligent etc. get a say, then the government has an incentive (albeit an imperfect one) to look after their interests. Under democracy, the interests of "ordinary" people get a consideration that they do not consistently get under any other system. When it comes to God's morals vs the morals of human beings, the great virtue of the morals of human beings is that they have regard to the interests of human beings (whether this is the self interest of an individual or the interest of others is plainly a big issue, but the human centred morality is a virtue nonetheless). There is no a priori reason to believe that the morals of God are consistent with the interests of human beings. We may just be his playthings in a sick game. Accordingly, it is essential for moral, intellectual and theological clarity that we make a clear distinction between God's morals and our own morals and recognise that God's morals reflect God's interests and our moral's reflect ours. When you make statements like "God is just" and define justice by God's actions, you are obliterating human identity, making God's interests the only ones that exist. What one does with this distinction will depend on one's other beliefs. If you believe that God does indeed exist, then it is important to know if God's nature makes human welfare a top priority. If it does, then happy days. If it does not, then you are in a nightmare: an omnipotent being with a lack of regard for human interests. Now an argument could be made that, in such a scenario, it is best not to know. But an argument could equally be made that if dealing with a terrorist, it is good to k
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I regard my arguments on tautology as conclusive. You plainly don't have eyes to see, so I won't labour the point. You say that God gives us a standard to live by. You miss the point that my concerns are about the absence of a standard for God to live by. The God-driven attrocities reported in the Old Testament certainly don't meet the standard laid down in 1 Corinthians 13, from which God is apparently exempt. Let me address the issue you keep raising about my standards vs God's standards. In political science arguments over democracy vs autocracy, the question arises as to why the opinions of the unintelligent, uneducated, selfish etc. should count for the same as those with more admirable attributes. The answer I always give is that decision making has two elements 1. technical expertise, 2. the interests or objectives of the decision makers. The great virtue of democracy is that if the unintelligent etc. get a say, then the government has an incentive (albeit an imperfect one) to look after their interests. Under democracy, the interests of "ordinary" people get a consideration that they do not consistently get under any other system. When it comes to God's morals vs the morals of human beings, the great virtue of the morals of human beings is that they have regard to the interests of human beings (whether this is the self interest of an individual or the interest of others is plainly a big issue, but the human centred morality is a virtue nonetheless). There is no a priori reason to believe that the morals of God are consistent with the interests of human beings. We may just be his playthings in a sick game. Accordingly, it is essential for moral, intellectual and theological clarity that we make a clear distinction between God's morals and our own morals and recognise that God's morals reflect God's interests and our moral's reflect ours. When you make statements like "God is just" and define justice by God's actions, you are obliterating human identity, making God's interests the only ones that exist. What one does with this distinction will depend on one's other beliefs. If you believe that God does indeed exist, then it is important to know if God's nature makes human welfare a top priority. If it does, then happy days. If it does not, then you are in a nightmare: an omnipotent being with a lack of regard for human interests. Now an argument could be made that, in such a scenario, it is best not to know. But an argument could equally be made that if dealing with a terrorist, it is good to k
John Carson wrote: I regard my arguments on tautology as conclusive. You plainly don't have eyes to see, so I won't labour the point. I'm sorry you can't comprehend my argument, then. Hanging on to a false claim of "tautology" in the face of my attempts to show you otherwise is saddening. But, I'll try to make it clearer in this post. John Carson wrote: When it comes to God's morals vs the morals of human beings, the great virtue of the morals of human beings is that they have regard to the interests of human beings Circular reasoning. You label human morals as virtuous by stating that they have the interests of themselves at heart. You like thinking of "interests of human beings" as a good thing, so you say that the interests of humans is a virtue, thus making God's morals supposedly less virtuous. Your wishes are at the root of your argument, without logical support for the choice. If this isn't a tautology, but my statements are, then I'd kindly request that you provide a definition of tautology as you use it! People want to live the way they want, without regard to a higher authority, so they provide a definition of morality that lets them reason their way out of believing in absolute morals. There is no basis to that argument other than the opinion that letting people do what they want is what is best for them. How do you know that? As a parent teaches a child, because they don't know enough yet, God is in the position of teaching us what is best for us. If you read even a few books of the Bible, you could clearly see that God has a desire to bless, provide, protect, and care for people. He also has the sole position of being omnipotent, making Him the only one who can accurately define what is in the best interest of human beings. It is also plain from the gospels that God did much more than expected or imagined in order to provide an escape from the penalty of sin. That is clear evidence that God is loving and that He cares about humans enough for us to safely believe in Him. Another thing that you have clearly confused is the issue of God's love. Apparently you think that in order to be loving, every single action must be a direct result of overt love. Justice is a critical part of practical love. You may have even heard humans referring to it as "tough love". Also, don't forget my plain statements that love is one of God's attributes, and that holiness is the primary attribute, not love. So, where God appears t
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John Carson wrote: I regard my arguments on tautology as conclusive. You plainly don't have eyes to see, so I won't labour the point. I'm sorry you can't comprehend my argument, then. Hanging on to a false claim of "tautology" in the face of my attempts to show you otherwise is saddening. But, I'll try to make it clearer in this post. John Carson wrote: When it comes to God's morals vs the morals of human beings, the great virtue of the morals of human beings is that they have regard to the interests of human beings Circular reasoning. You label human morals as virtuous by stating that they have the interests of themselves at heart. You like thinking of "interests of human beings" as a good thing, so you say that the interests of humans is a virtue, thus making God's morals supposedly less virtuous. Your wishes are at the root of your argument, without logical support for the choice. If this isn't a tautology, but my statements are, then I'd kindly request that you provide a definition of tautology as you use it! People want to live the way they want, without regard to a higher authority, so they provide a definition of morality that lets them reason their way out of believing in absolute morals. There is no basis to that argument other than the opinion that letting people do what they want is what is best for them. How do you know that? As a parent teaches a child, because they don't know enough yet, God is in the position of teaching us what is best for us. If you read even a few books of the Bible, you could clearly see that God has a desire to bless, provide, protect, and care for people. He also has the sole position of being omnipotent, making Him the only one who can accurately define what is in the best interest of human beings. It is also plain from the gospels that God did much more than expected or imagined in order to provide an escape from the penalty of sin. That is clear evidence that God is loving and that He cares about humans enough for us to safely believe in Him. Another thing that you have clearly confused is the issue of God's love. Apparently you think that in order to be loving, every single action must be a direct result of overt love. Justice is a critical part of practical love. You may have even heard humans referring to it as "tough love". Also, don't forget my plain statements that love is one of God's attributes, and that holiness is the primary attribute, not love. So, where God appears t
John Fisher wrote: Circular reasoning. You label human morals as virtuous by stating that they have the interests of themselves at heart. You like thinking of "interests of human beings" as a good thing, so you say that the interests of humans is a virtue, thus making God's morals supposedly less virtuous. Your wishes are at the root of your argument, without logical support for the choice. Let me make my position clearer. I reject the notion that there is some meta-morality that applies to all beings. What is in the interest of humans is not necessarily what is in the interests of dogs or cats. When humans push dogs or cats around, it is not justified by some species-independent morality. It is just a matter of humans exercising their superior power. Each class of beings has its own interests and which class prevails is determined by their relative power. One might hope for some empathy between different classes of beings, but I reject the notion that there is some objective system of morality that encompasses all of them. If God exists, then the relationship between God and human beings is analogous to the relationship between, say, human beings and farm animals. If I was a farm animal, I would not embrace human morality simply because it was articulated by a superior being. If I am a cow, why should I embrace the desire of human beings to eat me? Likewise, as a human being I see no reason to embrace the self-interested morality of a God who is more powerful than me. (I might go along with God's commands with a view to reducing the risk of punishment, but that is not the same as embracing God's morality.) John Fisher wrote: As a parent teaches a child, because they don't know enough yet, God is in the position of teaching us what is best for us. Which assumes that God has our best interests at heart, contrary to the evidence. John Fisher wrote: If you read even a few books of the Bible, you could clearly see that God has a desire to bless, provide, protect, and care for people. He also has the sole position of being omnipotent, making Him the only one who can accurately define what is in the best interest of human beings. I have read more than a few books of the Bible and I did not draw the same conclusion. Protestations of good intentions in the Bible must be subject to a credibility test. Further, omnipotence does not make God "the only one who can accurately define what is in the best interest of human bein
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John Fisher wrote: Circular reasoning. You label human morals as virtuous by stating that they have the interests of themselves at heart. You like thinking of "interests of human beings" as a good thing, so you say that the interests of humans is a virtue, thus making God's morals supposedly less virtuous. Your wishes are at the root of your argument, without logical support for the choice. Let me make my position clearer. I reject the notion that there is some meta-morality that applies to all beings. What is in the interest of humans is not necessarily what is in the interests of dogs or cats. When humans push dogs or cats around, it is not justified by some species-independent morality. It is just a matter of humans exercising their superior power. Each class of beings has its own interests and which class prevails is determined by their relative power. One might hope for some empathy between different classes of beings, but I reject the notion that there is some objective system of morality that encompasses all of them. If God exists, then the relationship between God and human beings is analogous to the relationship between, say, human beings and farm animals. If I was a farm animal, I would not embrace human morality simply because it was articulated by a superior being. If I am a cow, why should I embrace the desire of human beings to eat me? Likewise, as a human being I see no reason to embrace the self-interested morality of a God who is more powerful than me. (I might go along with God's commands with a view to reducing the risk of punishment, but that is not the same as embracing God's morality.) John Fisher wrote: As a parent teaches a child, because they don't know enough yet, God is in the position of teaching us what is best for us. Which assumes that God has our best interests at heart, contrary to the evidence. John Fisher wrote: If you read even a few books of the Bible, you could clearly see that God has a desire to bless, provide, protect, and care for people. He also has the sole position of being omnipotent, making Him the only one who can accurately define what is in the best interest of human beings. I have read more than a few books of the Bible and I did not draw the same conclusion. Protestations of good intentions in the Bible must be subject to a credibility test. Further, omnipotence does not make God "the only one who can accurately define what is in the best interest of human bein
John Carson wrote: Let me make my position clearer. I reject the notion that there is some meta-morality that applies to all beings. What is in the interest of humans is not necessarily what is in the interests of dogs or cats. If you think I had stated such a thing, then I'm sorry for the confusion. I only intended to indicate that God, through the Bible, has specified morals for humans. These morals were not meant to be applied to animals, etc. John Carson wrote: If God exists, then the relationship between God and human beings is analogous to the relationship between, say, human beings and farm animals. I might accept that analogy with several constraints, but not just as you stated it. God is certainly higher and different than humans, but the Bible teaches that we were created "in the image" of God and that God became a man in order to free us from sin and it's penalties. Animals were not created in the image of humans, nor has a human ever become a cow out of love for cows in order to save them from some horrible plight. John Carson wrote: Which assumes that God has our best interests at heart, contrary to the evidence. Since you provide none of this "evidence", the statement isn't work much. (I would have assumed that you believed God didn't exist. If that were the case, how could you even have any evidence for what God is like?) Your last 2 paragraphs again make it plain that you are ignoring the circular logic of your own ideas (as presented), and refusing to see the non-circular reasoning of my own statements. So, here they are in short, simple statements. Your position, based on my understanding of your posts: - Assumption: Being interested in human beings welfare is a virtue. - Assumption: Only humans are capable of accurately knowing what is in their best interest. - Conclusion: Human beings are best at defining their own morality. Unless you can provide a non-circular argument for the first assumption, the entire logical structure of that argument falls apart. You are left standing in a position that is less valid than the one to follow. My position, based upon my obvious ability to know what I think. - Assumption: God is all-powerful, as taught in the Bible. - Assumption: God is all-knowing, as taught in the Bible. - Assumption: God loves humans greatly, as taught in the Bible. - Assumption: God has given humans a moral code to live by. - Conclusion: Because o
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John Carson wrote: Let me make my position clearer. I reject the notion that there is some meta-morality that applies to all beings. What is in the interest of humans is not necessarily what is in the interests of dogs or cats. If you think I had stated such a thing, then I'm sorry for the confusion. I only intended to indicate that God, through the Bible, has specified morals for humans. These morals were not meant to be applied to animals, etc. John Carson wrote: If God exists, then the relationship between God and human beings is analogous to the relationship between, say, human beings and farm animals. I might accept that analogy with several constraints, but not just as you stated it. God is certainly higher and different than humans, but the Bible teaches that we were created "in the image" of God and that God became a man in order to free us from sin and it's penalties. Animals were not created in the image of humans, nor has a human ever become a cow out of love for cows in order to save them from some horrible plight. John Carson wrote: Which assumes that God has our best interests at heart, contrary to the evidence. Since you provide none of this "evidence", the statement isn't work much. (I would have assumed that you believed God didn't exist. If that were the case, how could you even have any evidence for what God is like?) Your last 2 paragraphs again make it plain that you are ignoring the circular logic of your own ideas (as presented), and refusing to see the non-circular reasoning of my own statements. So, here they are in short, simple statements. Your position, based on my understanding of your posts: - Assumption: Being interested in human beings welfare is a virtue. - Assumption: Only humans are capable of accurately knowing what is in their best interest. - Conclusion: Human beings are best at defining their own morality. Unless you can provide a non-circular argument for the first assumption, the entire logical structure of that argument falls apart. You are left standing in a position that is less valid than the one to follow. My position, based upon my obvious ability to know what I think. - Assumption: God is all-powerful, as taught in the Bible. - Assumption: God is all-knowing, as taught in the Bible. - Assumption: God loves humans greatly, as taught in the Bible. - Assumption: God has given humans a moral code to live by. - Conclusion: Because o
John Fisher wrote: If you think I had stated such a thing, then I'm sorry for the confusion. I only intended to indicate that God, through the Bible, has specified morals for humans. These morals were not meant to be applied to animals, etc. I am not under the impression that, say, the Ten Commandments apply to dogs. The Christian position, as I understand it, is that each being has a defined "place in God's Creation", with the nature of that place being defined by God. My position is that each being has to define its own place given the constraints to which it is subject. John Fisher wrote: Since you provide none of this "evidence", the statement isn't work much. (I would have assumed that you believed God didn't exist. If that were the case, how could you even have any evidence for what God is like?) Assessments of what God is like are obviously being made conditionally under the hypothesis that God as described in the Bible exists. Given that hypothesis, the evidence that God does not have our best interests at heart is: 1. His allowing the (relatively) innocent to suffer on earth, 2. The God-driven attrocities reported in the Old Testament, 3. The eternal punishment that the Bible predicts for many people. John Fisher wrote: Your position, based on my understanding of your posts: - Assumption: Being interested in human beings welfare is a virtue. - Assumption: Only humans are capable of accurately knowing what is in their best interest. - Conclusion: Human beings are best at defining their own morality. Unless you can provide a non-circular argument for the first assumption, the entire logical structure of that argument falls apart. You are left standing in a position that is less valid than the one to follow. I only hold to the first assumption. Supposing God to exist, God might very well know what is in human beings' best interests (indeed, might know it better than humans), but this counts for very little if God gives human welfare a low priority. I would prefer someone a little dim who is acting in my interests than someone all-wise who isn't. As for providing a "non-circular" argument for the first assumption, I have never attempted to offer an argument in its favour since I took it as axiomatic. I find it exceedingly strange that the assumption is thought to require justification but I guess that indicates how far apart are our perspectives. I am a human being. Everything I feel and percei
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John Fisher wrote: If you think I had stated such a thing, then I'm sorry for the confusion. I only intended to indicate that God, through the Bible, has specified morals for humans. These morals were not meant to be applied to animals, etc. I am not under the impression that, say, the Ten Commandments apply to dogs. The Christian position, as I understand it, is that each being has a defined "place in God's Creation", with the nature of that place being defined by God. My position is that each being has to define its own place given the constraints to which it is subject. John Fisher wrote: Since you provide none of this "evidence", the statement isn't work much. (I would have assumed that you believed God didn't exist. If that were the case, how could you even have any evidence for what God is like?) Assessments of what God is like are obviously being made conditionally under the hypothesis that God as described in the Bible exists. Given that hypothesis, the evidence that God does not have our best interests at heart is: 1. His allowing the (relatively) innocent to suffer on earth, 2. The God-driven attrocities reported in the Old Testament, 3. The eternal punishment that the Bible predicts for many people. John Fisher wrote: Your position, based on my understanding of your posts: - Assumption: Being interested in human beings welfare is a virtue. - Assumption: Only humans are capable of accurately knowing what is in their best interest. - Conclusion: Human beings are best at defining their own morality. Unless you can provide a non-circular argument for the first assumption, the entire logical structure of that argument falls apart. You are left standing in a position that is less valid than the one to follow. I only hold to the first assumption. Supposing God to exist, God might very well know what is in human beings' best interests (indeed, might know it better than humans), but this counts for very little if God gives human welfare a low priority. I would prefer someone a little dim who is acting in my interests than someone all-wise who isn't. As for providing a "non-circular" argument for the first assumption, I have never attempted to offer an argument in its favour since I took it as axiomatic. I find it exceedingly strange that the assumption is thought to require justification but I guess that indicates how far apart are our perspectives. I am a human being. Everything I feel and percei
John Carson wrote: My position is that each being has to define its own place given the constraints to which it is subject. That makes no sense if you don't have control over whether those decisions have binding authority. Sure, you can think that way, but in the end, you're just gambling, hoping that you choose well. John Carson wrote: 1. His allowing the (relatively) innocent to suffer on earth, "Relatively" is the key word. If they're not innocent by God's standards, then they aren't innocent. 2. The God-driven attrocities reported in the Old Testament, 3. The eternal punishment that the Bible predicts for many people. Attrocities are perspective dependent. If a soldier kills an invading enemy soldier during a war, was that an attrocity? If the legal system of a country executes a mass murderer, is that an attrocity? No. And so, when you have a proper perspective on the horror of sin, you realize that God's judgment is justice, not an attrocity. (Yes, I understand your position, but again you're jumping off assumptions that your own arbitrarily chosen morality is able to define "how bad" certain things are.) John Carson wrote: I freely admit that my embrace of human welfare as the metric of good is just as axiomatic as your use of God as the metric of good Thank you for being honest about your own assumptions, but you totally ignored that fact that my statements about God are not a simple "God is good". There is valid reasoning to support my conclusion, unlike your own. I gave it to you and you ignored it. John Carson wrote: I asked in an earlier post if it would be OK if parents beat a child almost to death whenever the child got less than 100% in a school test because their concept of justice required it. That is an inaccurate correlation. Parents don't have the capability of knowing what is best for a child in the same way that God knows what is best. Also, parents are clearly caught in the same moral position as the children -- sinful, often selfish, imperfect, etc. Also, you are ignoring the fact that a parent who treats a child in such a way is violating the principles God teaches in the Bible. John Carson wrote: You apply similar reasoning in support of God's goodness, justice etc. Where is that? I am becoming more convinced that you simply can't understand my posts. John Carson wrote:
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John Carson wrote: My position is that each being has to define its own place given the constraints to which it is subject. That makes no sense if you don't have control over whether those decisions have binding authority. Sure, you can think that way, but in the end, you're just gambling, hoping that you choose well. John Carson wrote: 1. His allowing the (relatively) innocent to suffer on earth, "Relatively" is the key word. If they're not innocent by God's standards, then they aren't innocent. 2. The God-driven attrocities reported in the Old Testament, 3. The eternal punishment that the Bible predicts for many people. Attrocities are perspective dependent. If a soldier kills an invading enemy soldier during a war, was that an attrocity? If the legal system of a country executes a mass murderer, is that an attrocity? No. And so, when you have a proper perspective on the horror of sin, you realize that God's judgment is justice, not an attrocity. (Yes, I understand your position, but again you're jumping off assumptions that your own arbitrarily chosen morality is able to define "how bad" certain things are.) John Carson wrote: I freely admit that my embrace of human welfare as the metric of good is just as axiomatic as your use of God as the metric of good Thank you for being honest about your own assumptions, but you totally ignored that fact that my statements about God are not a simple "God is good". There is valid reasoning to support my conclusion, unlike your own. I gave it to you and you ignored it. John Carson wrote: I asked in an earlier post if it would be OK if parents beat a child almost to death whenever the child got less than 100% in a school test because their concept of justice required it. That is an inaccurate correlation. Parents don't have the capability of knowing what is best for a child in the same way that God knows what is best. Also, parents are clearly caught in the same moral position as the children -- sinful, often selfish, imperfect, etc. Also, you are ignoring the fact that a parent who treats a child in such a way is violating the principles God teaches in the Bible. John Carson wrote: You apply similar reasoning in support of God's goodness, justice etc. Where is that? I am becoming more convinced that you simply can't understand my posts. John Carson wrote:
As both teacher and student, I have often observed the circumstance where something is clearly explained but the student (either me or someone else) just doesn't get it. Eventually the light dawns and the student suddenly realises that the explanation was there all along but for some reason just didn't penetrate. One of us is just not seeing it. You think it is me. I think it is you. Unlike in the incidents I referred to, I doubt that this will change. John Fisher wrote: That is an inaccurate correlation. Parents don't have the capability of knowing what is best for a child in the same way that God knows what is best. Also, parents are clearly caught in the same moral position as the children -- sinful, often selfish, imperfect, etc. Also, you are ignoring the fact that a parent who treats a child in such a way is violating the principles God teaches in the Bible. "[Y]are ignoring the fact that a parent who treats a child in such a way is violating the principles God teaches in the Bible". What a sad argument. I was drawing an analogy between the God-human relationship and the parent-child relationship. Plainly if you introduce God into the parent-child relationship, then there is no analogy (unless one imagines there to be some "Super God" in the background of the God-human relationship). You happily introduced the parent-child analogy yourself and, as soon as it is turned against you, you introduce something that destroys the analogy. Basically, your mind is completely trapped in your belief of how things are and your cannot step outside it to consider alternatives. "Also, parents are clearly caught in the same moral position as the children -- sinful, often selfish, imperfect, etc." Same problem again. You are invoking God in the background to pass judgement on the parents. For the analogy to hold there is no God in the background (just as there is no Super God laying down morals for God). For the purposes of the analogy, the parents get to say what is moral. Them laying down standards for the child and determining the punishment that meets their standards of justice is completely analogous to God laying down standards for humans and likewise determining the appropriate punishment. If we can't call God selfish for pursuing his purposes at the expense of human welfare, then, for the purposes of the analogy, we can't call parents selfish for pursuing their purposes at the expense of their child's welfare. What it comes down to is that, except when it serves your short ter
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John Fisher wrote: If you think I had stated such a thing, then I'm sorry for the confusion. I only intended to indicate that God, through the Bible, has specified morals for humans. These morals were not meant to be applied to animals, etc. I am not under the impression that, say, the Ten Commandments apply to dogs. The Christian position, as I understand it, is that each being has a defined "place in God's Creation", with the nature of that place being defined by God. My position is that each being has to define its own place given the constraints to which it is subject. John Fisher wrote: Since you provide none of this "evidence", the statement isn't work much. (I would have assumed that you believed God didn't exist. If that were the case, how could you even have any evidence for what God is like?) Assessments of what God is like are obviously being made conditionally under the hypothesis that God as described in the Bible exists. Given that hypothesis, the evidence that God does not have our best interests at heart is: 1. His allowing the (relatively) innocent to suffer on earth, 2. The God-driven attrocities reported in the Old Testament, 3. The eternal punishment that the Bible predicts for many people. John Fisher wrote: Your position, based on my understanding of your posts: - Assumption: Being interested in human beings welfare is a virtue. - Assumption: Only humans are capable of accurately knowing what is in their best interest. - Conclusion: Human beings are best at defining their own morality. Unless you can provide a non-circular argument for the first assumption, the entire logical structure of that argument falls apart. You are left standing in a position that is less valid than the one to follow. I only hold to the first assumption. Supposing God to exist, God might very well know what is in human beings' best interests (indeed, might know it better than humans), but this counts for very little if God gives human welfare a low priority. I would prefer someone a little dim who is acting in my interests than someone all-wise who isn't. As for providing a "non-circular" argument for the first assumption, I have never attempted to offer an argument in its favour since I took it as axiomatic. I find it exceedingly strange that the assumption is thought to require justification but I guess that indicates how far apart are our perspectives. I am a human being. Everything I feel and percei
NOTE: I need to reply at this level, since the next reply level is too deep for CP to accept it. John Carson wrote: I was drawing an analogy between the God-human relationship and the parent-child relationship. Plainly if you introduce God into the parent-child relationship, then there is no analogy (unless one imagines there to be some "Super God" in the background of the God-human relationship). Your statement: If the parents' standard is academic perfection, then surely it is an act of loving grace that they only beat the child almost to death. You apply similar reasoning in support of God's goodness, justice etc. It did not mention that you were trying to draw an analogy. So, now that you've described it as an analogy, I'll treat it that way. First, you must describe why the parents set a standard of academic perfection. God's moral law is not merely arbitrary as you seem to indicate. I am not privy to all the reasons, but some are pretty clear. Second, you must establish a correlation between the lack of academic perfection and punishment. Why are the parents punishing the children if they don't achieve? Again, God has given us reasons why this works. Your analogy has not done so for the parents. My point is this: God's system is logical and you are trying to draw an analogy against a currently illogical system. John Carson wrote: What it comes down to is that, except when it serves your short term propagandist purposes, you reject any analogy with God. I just proved you wrong above. John Carson wrote: Thus God is in the unique position of not being able to be held to any standard. How does that follow? Not being held to the standard that you want Him held to does not mean that He has no standard. The Bible describes things that God cannot do. If He ever did, then He would have broken the "standard" He set for Himself. (We describe it not as a standard by character.) John Carson wrote: You doubt that I understand your posts. In reality, you seem to be in denial about your own beliefs. I am not in denial about my beliefs, and am in the process of showing that to you. What happened here is that you used my arguments out of context and with an intent different than my own. I can see why you did it, but because the analogy you have drawn between God and parents is incomplete and inaccurate, my arguments don't fit in support of the par
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NOTE: I need to reply at this level, since the next reply level is too deep for CP to accept it. John Carson wrote: I was drawing an analogy between the God-human relationship and the parent-child relationship. Plainly if you introduce God into the parent-child relationship, then there is no analogy (unless one imagines there to be some "Super God" in the background of the God-human relationship). Your statement: If the parents' standard is academic perfection, then surely it is an act of loving grace that they only beat the child almost to death. You apply similar reasoning in support of God's goodness, justice etc. It did not mention that you were trying to draw an analogy. So, now that you've described it as an analogy, I'll treat it that way. First, you must describe why the parents set a standard of academic perfection. God's moral law is not merely arbitrary as you seem to indicate. I am not privy to all the reasons, but some are pretty clear. Second, you must establish a correlation between the lack of academic perfection and punishment. Why are the parents punishing the children if they don't achieve? Again, God has given us reasons why this works. Your analogy has not done so for the parents. My point is this: God's system is logical and you are trying to draw an analogy against a currently illogical system. John Carson wrote: What it comes down to is that, except when it serves your short term propagandist purposes, you reject any analogy with God. I just proved you wrong above. John Carson wrote: Thus God is in the unique position of not being able to be held to any standard. How does that follow? Not being held to the standard that you want Him held to does not mean that He has no standard. The Bible describes things that God cannot do. If He ever did, then He would have broken the "standard" He set for Himself. (We describe it not as a standard by character.) John Carson wrote: You doubt that I understand your posts. In reality, you seem to be in denial about your own beliefs. I am not in denial about my beliefs, and am in the process of showing that to you. What happened here is that you used my arguments out of context and with an intent different than my own. I can see why you did it, but because the analogy you have drawn between God and parents is incomplete and inaccurate, my arguments don't fit in support of the par
John Fisher wrote: First, you must describe why the parents set a standard of academic perfection. God's moral law is not merely arbitrary as you seem to indicate. I am not privy to all the reasons, but some are pretty clear. Second, you must establish a correlation between the lack of academic perfection and punishment. Why are the parents punishing the children if they don't achieve? Again, God has given us reasons why this works. Your analogy has not done so for the parents. My point is this: God's system is logical and you are trying to draw an analogy against a currently illogical system. If you claim that a standard of "academic perfection" is arbitrary, then you must either think that parents desiring good school results is arbitrary (which it surely is not) or that the arbitrariness comes in the desire for perfection. How do God's standards compare? I will grant you that many (though not all) of the moral standards laid down in the Bible can be supported with good reasons, but when it comes to requiring perfection (and having horrendous punishments for failing to meet it), that seems to me to be just as arbitrary as requiring perfection in academic performance. Arguments about God's nature requiring perfection don't work for me. The parent's nature could equally be said to require it. As for the "reasons why it works", the parent's justification is presumably that it is a motivator. What is the reason for God's punishment? If it is to satisfy God's need for justice, holiness etc., then I can say analogous things for the parents. If it is a motivator, then it plainly is a rather poor motivator. On the Bible's own claims, many fail to heed the message. This is no doubt partly because the truth of God's existence and of the specifically Christian interpretation of God are far from clear to a large proportion of the human race. Whatever you might say about the reasons for this, it is plain that God could make it vastly clearer what the choices are. Imagine if the parent didn't make clear to the child what the child was liable to be punished for. Wouldn't we consider the parent arbitrary and unreasonable? John Fisher wrote: John Carson wrote: What it comes down to is that, except when it serves your short term propagandist purposes, you reject any analogy with God. I just proved you wrong above. I haven't denied your willingness to make some analogies; you have made many. I have denied your willingness to follow them through with any con