ID Cards Bill Third Reading
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Ian Darling wrote:
This government can have my biometrics when it pries them from my cold, dead hands
If only it were that easy. :( I wonder when the protests will start? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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What is the objection to ID cards in the UK? They really are a painless issue in Europe, and would controll the number of illegal immigrants in the UK. Nunc est bibendum
The biometrics doesn't work and it will be too easy for criminals to get fake cards plus the checking system will fail even if it is implemented widely enough. Flashing Light Syndrome and a waste of money. Remember what prohibition did for organised crime? The tigress is here :-D
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The biometrics doesn't work and it will be too easy for criminals to get fake cards plus the checking system will fail even if it is implemented widely enough. Flashing Light Syndrome and a waste of money. Remember what prohibition did for organised crime? The tigress is here :-D
I had a look at NO2ID. There are some big holes so far as I see it: 1) Biometrics. Too expensive and a waste of time. It should be replaced with a photo and PIN number. 2) Checking. Too expensive for the biometrics check, and a visual check is too slack. Replace validation with a PIN number. 3) Issuing. All people coming into the UK need to be issued with a temporary ID card, with a duration in line with their visa. There is absoloutely no point in letting people into the UK without issuing them an ID card. 4) Forging ID cards. Use a PIN number. PINs have reduced credit card fraud in the UK. 5) Authority. Hand the whole thing to the pasports agency to deal with. The ID card should be the same as the last page of the passport, but with a chip and PIN. Nunc est bibendum
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What is the objection to ID cards in the UK? They really are a painless issue in Europe, and would controll the number of illegal immigrants in the UK. Nunc est bibendum
For me, it's an ideological issue as well as a practical one. Its not for me to justify my existance to the government, the government should justify its existance to me. Not to mention the fact they will pimp the DB to Equifax and anyone else with sufficient cash to recoup the costs. Ryan
O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold Are but a cheat contrived by men of old, Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust And died in baseness—and their law is dust. al-Ma'arri (973-1057)
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What is the objection to ID cards in the UK? They really are a painless issue in Europe, and would controll the number of illegal immigrants in the UK. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
What is the objection to ID cards in the UK?
You mean other than being backed by what is likely to be the largest database of personal, private and biometric information in the world (the NIR)? A database that will contain extensive audit trails of everything you do that uses ID checks (a list of activities that will grow due to function creep exactly like there was with the cards in WW2 - it started off being used for three distinct things - it finished in 1952 with about forty). It is a scheme that has had no solid rationale (and will never have one), hugely optimistic budgeting (see the LSE report), and will do nothing for the people of the UK apart from lighten their wallets and reduce their liberty? It is a scheme that the government have tried to avoid open debate on, lied about frequently (see here[^]), and given it's serious nature - the time the ID Cards Bill has had in Parliament is outrageous.
fat_boy wrote:
They really are a painless issue in Europe, and would controll the number of illegal immigrants in the UK.
Most Euro ID cards generally seem to be little more than photocards. The UK scheme proposed goes significantly further than that. And arguing "Europe already has them" does not in the slightest bit mean we must have them too. I can just as easily argue that the UK, US, Australia and Canada don't have ID cards (AFAIK), and therefore the rest of Europe shouldn't either. And there's already a card system for asylum seekers, and illegal immigrants are hardly likely to turn up at a Home Office Identity Registration Centre (or whatever they'll be called when they arrive) - they're going to avoid the authorities exactly as they do now, and so are the people that take advantage of those immigrants. If you're serious about reducing illegal immigration, you improve your port and border security here, and spend time tracking down and prosecuting the groups that smuggle people in.
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fat_boy wrote:
What is the objection to ID cards in the UK?
You mean other than being backed by what is likely to be the largest database of personal, private and biometric information in the world (the NIR)? A database that will contain extensive audit trails of everything you do that uses ID checks (a list of activities that will grow due to function creep exactly like there was with the cards in WW2 - it started off being used for three distinct things - it finished in 1952 with about forty). It is a scheme that has had no solid rationale (and will never have one), hugely optimistic budgeting (see the LSE report), and will do nothing for the people of the UK apart from lighten their wallets and reduce their liberty? It is a scheme that the government have tried to avoid open debate on, lied about frequently (see here[^]), and given it's serious nature - the time the ID Cards Bill has had in Parliament is outrageous.
fat_boy wrote:
They really are a painless issue in Europe, and would controll the number of illegal immigrants in the UK.
Most Euro ID cards generally seem to be little more than photocards. The UK scheme proposed goes significantly further than that. And arguing "Europe already has them" does not in the slightest bit mean we must have them too. I can just as easily argue that the UK, US, Australia and Canada don't have ID cards (AFAIK), and therefore the rest of Europe shouldn't either. And there's already a card system for asylum seekers, and illegal immigrants are hardly likely to turn up at a Home Office Identity Registration Centre (or whatever they'll be called when they arrive) - they're going to avoid the authorities exactly as they do now, and so are the people that take advantage of those immigrants. If you're serious about reducing illegal immigration, you improve your port and border security here, and spend time tracking down and prosecuting the groups that smuggle people in.
So a photo card only system would be OK for you? Re immigration, there is n point having them if they arent going to be mandatory for all visitors to the UK, and like you say, that will need more customs staff. BTW, saying they are painless in Europe is not a 'we have them so you should too' argument, just a statement that having to have an ID card is no big deal. Nunc est bibendum
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I had a look at NO2ID. There are some big holes so far as I see it: 1) Biometrics. Too expensive and a waste of time. It should be replaced with a photo and PIN number. 2) Checking. Too expensive for the biometrics check, and a visual check is too slack. Replace validation with a PIN number. 3) Issuing. All people coming into the UK need to be issued with a temporary ID card, with a duration in line with their visa. There is absoloutely no point in letting people into the UK without issuing them an ID card. 4) Forging ID cards. Use a PIN number. PINs have reduced credit card fraud in the UK. 5) Authority. Hand the whole thing to the pasports agency to deal with. The ID card should be the same as the last page of the passport, but with a chip and PIN. Nunc est bibendum
It's extremely telling that a five minute brainstorm by you came up with a better scheme than the UK Government did. Mind you, I still wouldn't want your scheme either ;P
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So a photo card only system would be OK for you? Re immigration, there is n point having them if they arent going to be mandatory for all visitors to the UK, and like you say, that will need more customs staff. BTW, saying they are painless in Europe is not a 'we have them so you should too' argument, just a statement that having to have an ID card is no big deal. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
So a photo card only system would be OK for you?
That depends on how it was operated and what it is intended to do. There are already voluntary but "accredited" schemes such as CitizenCard (aimed at young people so they can prove they can legally buy fags, booze, or whatever) which don't seem too bad, although I don't know too much about them. It would certainly have to be a voluntary scheme so, and it should not be mandated for things such as opening bank accounts, etc. As I rarely need to prove who I am to anyone (once in three years), and already have a passport which is suitable for when I do (I needed it to set up some financial stuff), I wouldn't need a photocard, and would resist any compulsion on my part to do so. But if you wanted a voluntary HMG backed photocard, then fine.