Could he become the next US president?
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Stan, my question was quite generalized. I was not talking about McCain or the Republicans or the Democrats. Another shot at my original question? We're talking about Scenario #1 Person P is carrying the banner of party X Scenario #2 P is carrying the banner of party Y (unlikely for politicians in the West to defect, I know) Scenario #3 P is running as an independent Why would you vote for P in scenario #3 but not in scenario #1? Cheers, Vikram.
"When I read in books about a "base class", I figured this was the class that was at the bottom of the inheritence tree. It's the "base", right? Like the base of a pyramid." - Marc Clifton.
But that isn't what I meant. If McCain could run on the Republican ticket, I might well vote for him, or even if he ran as a democrat. But it is extremely unlikely that he will succeed at trying to do that. The chances are that the only way I will ever have a chance to vote for him is if he runs as an independent, 3rd party candidate. I will admit that I generally vote a straight party ticket. If I voted for McCain as an independent than I would probably vote for all the indepedent candidates. The reason I do that is because I prefer to have people in Washington cooporating with the guy I voted for president rather than fighting him. I generally pick the party platform I most agree with and vote that way. History proves that to be the smartest way to vote. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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McCain is the democrat controlled media's useful idiot, they love the guy. It was largly his moronic campaign finance reform efforts that led to the rise of "501" groups such as moveon.org that caused so much chaos in our last campaign cycle - just as most on the right warned him would be the result. Beyond that, he isn't taken too seriously by conservatives, and I can't imagine too many democrats changing sides to vote for him. But anything is possible I suppose. I actually wish he would run as an independent, 3rd party candidate. I might consider voting for him if he did. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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But that isn't what I meant. If McCain could run on the Republican ticket, I might well vote for him, or even if he ran as a democrat. But it is extremely unlikely that he will succeed at trying to do that. The chances are that the only way I will ever have a chance to vote for him is if he runs as an independent, 3rd party candidate. I will admit that I generally vote a straight party ticket. If I voted for McCain as an independent than I would probably vote for all the indepedent candidates. The reason I do that is because I prefer to have people in Washington cooporating with the guy I voted for president rather than fighting him. I generally pick the party platform I most agree with and vote that way. History proves that to be the smartest way to vote. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
Why would he have more of a chance as an independent? Most people who are R/D would vote for whomever their R/D representitives elected. So he does have a better chance in R/D than in I. However, you should vote for him in either R/D/I if you like him. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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Why would he have more of a chance as an independent? Most people who are R/D would vote for whomever their R/D representitives elected. So he does have a better chance in R/D than in I. However, you should vote for him in either R/D/I if you like him. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
I think what Stan is saying (I'm in the UK and could be wrong here) is that in running as a Democrat or Republican he'd have to do the Primary's (?!?) thing and get elected by the party in order to be their candidate at Presidential election time, and that is just never going to happen. Hence, if he ran as a Republlican or Democrat Stan wouldn never get to vote for him as a presidential candidate as he'd never be a presidential candidate wheras if he ran as an independant he wouldn't need to be voted in as the offical representative of a party, he can just stand directly as an independant presidential candidate thereby enabling Stan to make that vote. Did that make any sense? Rhys In the 60s, people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.
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I think what Stan is saying (I'm in the UK and could be wrong here) is that in running as a Democrat or Republican he'd have to do the Primary's (?!?) thing and get elected by the party in order to be their candidate at Presidential election time, and that is just never going to happen. Hence, if he ran as a Republlican or Democrat Stan wouldn never get to vote for him as a presidential candidate as he'd never be a presidential candidate wheras if he ran as an independant he wouldn't need to be voted in as the offical representative of a party, he can just stand directly as an independant presidential candidate thereby enabling Stan to make that vote. Did that make any sense? Rhys In the 60s, people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.
Precisely. I'm no defender of the US primary system. I think it is the biggest problem our system has, largely non-constitutional, and antiquated. It badly needs to be reformed. It is generally controlled by wingnuts on both sides and makes it difficult to get qualified candidates into the generally election. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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I think a system that tends to encourage a two party system is generally to be preferred to one that doesn't. That doesn't mean I think its perfect and doesn't need an occassioanl shake up. McCain might well be the person to do that. I hope he tries. Having unlimited parties that allow any extremist group to participate in politica process should be avoided at all costs, IMO. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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I think a system that tends to encourage a two party system is generally to be preferred to one that doesn't. That doesn't mean I think its perfect and doesn't need an occassioanl shake up. McCain might well be the person to do that. I hope he tries. Having unlimited parties that allow any extremist group to participate in politica process should be avoided at all costs, IMO. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
It's either going to be finite or infinite. If you make it finite, then whoever's putting in the money is going to control the candidate. If you make it infinite and anybody can run, then you'd better make sure that they don't run on endorsements, otherwise we're back to were we started. It's kinda like saying let the biggest companies in the US employ the president. Not that I don't think the position of the president and everyone else under him/her shouldn't be elligible for termination if they're not up to par on doing their job. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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I think a system that tends to encourage a two party system is generally to be preferred to one that doesn't. That doesn't mean I think its perfect and doesn't need an occassioanl shake up. McCain might well be the person to do that. I hope he tries. Having unlimited parties that allow any extremist group to participate in politica process should be avoided at all costs, IMO. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
So the first amendment shouldn't allow shouting "Marxism" in a crowded election...
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It's either going to be finite or infinite. If you make it finite, then whoever's putting in the money is going to control the candidate. If you make it infinite and anybody can run, then you'd better make sure that they don't run on endorsements, otherwise we're back to were we started. It's kinda like saying let the biggest companies in the US employ the president. Not that I don't think the position of the president and everyone else under him/her shouldn't be elligible for termination if they're not up to par on doing their job. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
I think the argument that multiparty system are somehow inherently less influenced by corruption than two party systems is weak. What gets corrupted is the power that is controlled after the election, and monied interests will always find a way to corrupt power regardless of how elections are conducted. The notion that you are going to reduce it by how you elect the people who hold the power is simplistic. You need a good systm in place to uncover it when it exists, and less political power to be corrupted in the first place. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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No, not Abramoff. The other one.[^]
Oh Terre de détresse Où nous devons sans cesse Piocher Piocher Fold with us! ¤ flickr
As has already been opined, McCain would not / will not make it through the primary process. He may have been a decent president had he beaten GWB the first time but he is absolutely not thye man for today: The circumstances that make him a hero (POW) make him weaker than he needs to be in today's world climate. He (my opinion) has delusions of granduer believeing that being a war time pilot and POW somehow gives him military insight greater than that of the generals who actually run the military - the equivalent of an elevator operator believing he can run the Otis Elevator Company. Far too willing to play politics and compromise. Mike "We ain't stuck on stupid." badass Lt. General Russel Honore **"Remember - live bunnies are a great source of nourishment"**silly-assed cartoon A vegan is someone who never heard a carrot cry! I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
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So the first amendment shouldn't allow shouting "Marxism" in a crowded election...
Nothing to do with the first amendment in that regard. Any trully free democratic system will naturally gravitate towards a two party system, simply becasue, by definition, most voters are in the center. All political extremes will naturally collapse into one another until finally there are just two highly compromised choices for the voters to examine. The reason it often looks as though we only have one party is because we have one center that both parties must pander to. The only way the extremes can have equal access is by means of government intervention to protect their existence. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot." -- modified at 13:11 Thursday 5th January, 2006
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As has already been opined, McCain would not / will not make it through the primary process. He may have been a decent president had he beaten GWB the first time but he is absolutely not thye man for today: The circumstances that make him a hero (POW) make him weaker than he needs to be in today's world climate. He (my opinion) has delusions of granduer believeing that being a war time pilot and POW somehow gives him military insight greater than that of the generals who actually run the military - the equivalent of an elevator operator believing he can run the Otis Elevator Company. Far too willing to play politics and compromise. Mike "We ain't stuck on stupid." badass Lt. General Russel Honore **"Remember - live bunnies are a great source of nourishment"**silly-assed cartoon A vegan is someone who never heard a carrot cry! I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Mike Gaskey wrote:
being a war time pilot and POW somehow gives him military insight greater than that of the generals who actually run the military
Better than Bush who used daddy's influence to get into a National Guard unit that was never going to Viet Nam and then spending most of his time AWOL on political outings and partying. At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.
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I think the argument that multiparty system are somehow inherently less influenced by corruption than two party systems is weak. What gets corrupted is the power that is controlled after the election, and monied interests will always find a way to corrupt power regardless of how elections are conducted. The notion that you are going to reduce it by how you elect the people who hold the power is simplistic. You need a good systm in place to uncover it when it exists, and less political power to be corrupted in the first place. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
Stan Shannon wrote:
and less political power to be corrupted in the first place
I think that's a big key. Keeping gov't control to a minimum can only help decrease the likelihood of corruption. BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven Wright -
No, not Abramoff. The other one.[^]
Oh Terre de détresse Où nous devons sans cesse Piocher Piocher Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Yes. Yes, I could. "we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
being a war time pilot and POW somehow gives him military insight greater than that of the generals who actually run the military
Better than Bush who used daddy's influence to get into a National Guard unit that was never going to Viet Nam and then spending most of his time AWOL on political outings and partying. At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.
Tim Craig wrote:
At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe
and you've provided ample proof Mike "We ain't stuck on stupid." badass Lt. General Russel Honore **"Remember - live bunnies are a great source of nourishment"**silly-assed cartoon A vegan is someone who never heard a carrot cry! I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year -- modified at 15:39 Thursday 5th January, 2006
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
being a war time pilot and POW somehow gives him military insight greater than that of the generals who actually run the military
Better than Bush who used daddy's influence to get into a National Guard unit that was never going to Viet Nam and then spending most of his time AWOL on political outings and partying. At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.
Tim Craig wrote:
Better than Bush who used daddy's influence to get into a National Guard unit that was never going to Viet Nam and then spending most of his time AWOL on political outings and partying.
This is so wrong. Bush was never AWOL. When he asked to go to Alabama and help with Campaigning, the Air Guard was trying to get rid of it's overflow of pilots. Vietnam was winding down and going to Alabama was doing the TANG a favor. It worked out for both parties. This story has been beat to death. Ask Dan Rather about it. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Tim Craig wrote:
Better than Bush who used daddy's influence to get into a National Guard unit that was never going to Viet Nam and then spending most of his time AWOL on political outings and partying.
This is so wrong. Bush was never AWOL. When he asked to go to Alabama and help with Campaigning, the Air Guard was trying to get rid of it's overflow of pilots. Vietnam was winding down and going to Alabama was doing the TANG a favor. It worked out for both parties. This story has been beat to death. Ask Dan Rather about it. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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kgaddy wrote:
My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
Did your mum really tell you that? I pitty you if you grew up with that kind of attitude from your parents.
Josh Gray wrote:
Did your mum really tell you that? I pitty you if you grew up with that kind of attitude from your parents.
Yes she did. I had the best childhood. My mom did not tolerate any of us fighting unless we had to defend ourselves. I was told that when I did not defend myself at school with a older kid. He was from Mexico. And she was right. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Josh Gray wrote:
Did your mum really tell you that? I pitty you if you grew up with that kind of attitude from your parents.
Yes she did. I had the best childhood. My mom did not tolerate any of us fighting unless we had to defend ourselves. I was told that when I did not defend myself at school with a older kid. He was from Mexico. And she was right. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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You poor bastard. I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
Josh Gray wrote:
You poor bastard.
Tell me, does your parents reak of poculi and like to sing folk songs by the campfire? And do you understand what an asskicking is? Find me one person who does not understand that. I can also show you may people who do not understand how to live with one another in peace, but I guarantee you they understand an asskicking. Wise woman my mom was. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"