Middle East
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Be nice, but in the real world this will NEVER happen.. Humans like conflict and seek it out... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
your pessimism/realism shouldn't stop you working towards this goal. Maybe we can't make this world a better place. But we can stop making it worse.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist -
Stan Shannon wrote:
lets be sure to worry about those 4 guys
If it were only 4, Stan, I wouldn't worry. But there are more.
Indeed. I watch a lot of crap they spew out in various formats. I like to call it "abstract comedy". :)
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your pessimism/realism shouldn't stop you working towards this goal. Maybe we can't make this world a better place. But we can stop making it worse.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighistpeterchen wrote:
But we can stop making it worse.
There is only one solution to that problem, and it's not pretty. People, black, white, christian, muslims, whatever, will have to die due to a common catastrophy. That's the only way, IMO, to make people see others as partners rather than adversaries.
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It's getting pretty messey over there with Hamas being elected. I really hope they stop beating the terror drums and forget about Isreal. Between this, Iraq and Iran, this could (and most likely will) destabalize the region. As a US citizen I think we should build structers in Isreal next to the buildings Hamas wants to blow up, maybe that will discurage them? I'm not sure what else anyone can do. It will take all the countries (Russa, UK, Germany, France etc...) getting together and co-operating. Thats in itself is extreamly rare. We all need to get our ***** in order, this could so easly escalate and get totally out of control. :-( My 2 Cents... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
Between this, Iraq and Iran, this could (and most likely will) destabalize the region.
You mean that the region wasn't already destabalised?
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
As a US citizen I think we should build structers in Isreal next to the buildings Hamas wants to blow up, maybe that will discurage them?
Or make them more determined - Nothing like a good challenge!
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
We all need to get our ***** in order, this could so easly escalate and get totally out of control
Perhaps Hamas was elected because it already has escalated. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Blameing religion for it all merely takes us further away from any possible solution.
More prople have been killed in the name of god or some other nonsense. So, religion is the common catalyst. While I see your point, I very strongly disagree with it. However, people can use religion as a scape goat in masking there real reasons for hostility, so nothing is 100%... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
More prople have been killed in the name of god or some other nonsense
I have to ask where you get that from. I think it is debateable as to whether any of humanity's most destructive conflicts were related to religion in even the most remote way. And the few that were could be easily interpreted in other ways and attributed to other causes. If one looks at all the causes that have compelled people to kill each other, religion appears pretty far down the list. We are currently at one of those rare cusps in history when religion appears to be playing a major role in contrubuting to human conflict which I think skews our interpretations of history. But even now I think it is arguable that the violence is only superficially about religion. I continue to insist that solving the problem of religion will in no way solve the problem of human violence. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Stan Shannon wrote:
lets be sure to worry about those 4 guys
If it were only 4, Stan, I wouldn't worry. But there are more.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
But there are more.
Than I would like to know where they are hiding. I have lived my entire life in the bible belt, travel widely through it today, go to church on a fairly regular basis, and I haven't seen the slightest hint of this looming spectre of hordes of Christian loonies destroying American civilzation. I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly. Christian fundamentalism is just about the most impotent, weak and well maintained threat of all those which currently face our civilization. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
More prople have been killed in the name of god or some other nonsense
I have to ask where you get that from. I think it is debateable as to whether any of humanity's most destructive conflicts were related to religion in even the most remote way. And the few that were could be easily interpreted in other ways and attributed to other causes. If one looks at all the causes that have compelled people to kill each other, religion appears pretty far down the list. We are currently at one of those rare cusps in history when religion appears to be playing a major role in contrubuting to human conflict which I think skews our interpretations of history. But even now I think it is arguable that the violence is only superficially about religion. I continue to insist that solving the problem of religion will in no way solve the problem of human violence. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
For a few examples check out this link: http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=holy+war&btnG=Search+News [^] or if thats not enough: [http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\\](http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\)[[^](http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\)] Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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For a few examples check out this link: http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=holy+war&btnG=Search+News [^] or if thats not enough: [http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\\](http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\)[[^](http://news.google.com/news?tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=jihad\)] Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Sorry, but that looks more like media sensationalism than an analysis of human conflict. Every time I think about this issue, I am always reminded of the Ancient Greeks. Here we had people who were basically of the same race, spoke very similar languages, worsipped exactly the same Gods, had as much in common as human beings could possibly have - and they fought some of the most violent wars in human history against one another for generations. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
But there are more.
Than I would like to know where they are hiding. I have lived my entire life in the bible belt, travel widely through it today, go to church on a fairly regular basis, and I haven't seen the slightest hint of this looming spectre of hordes of Christian loonies destroying American civilzation. I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly. Christian fundamentalism is just about the most impotent, weak and well maintained threat of all those which currently face our civilization. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly.
Lol, you christian fundamentalists are just as bad. This is a really funny statment! Can't you just hear the misplaced christion superiority? Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Sorry, but that looks more like media sensationalism than an analysis of human conflict. Every time I think about this issue, I am always reminded of the Ancient Greeks. Here we had people who were basically of the same race, spoke very similar languages, worsipped exactly the same Gods, had as much in common as human beings could possibly have - and they fought some of the most violent wars in human history against one another for generations. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Whatever you say. I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days. It boils down to this... No one group is better then any other because they believe the earth was flat. To go around trying to persuade people to your point of view is one thing, but if and when they don't follow your logic to excommunicate them, torture them or blow them up is ultimately self defeating and breeds ignorance, hatred and bigotry. All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly.
Lol, you christian fundamentalists are just as bad. This is a really funny statment! Can't you just hear the misplaced christion superiority? Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
you christian fundamentalists are just as bad
How can you possibly say that? I'm closer to being an athiest than I am to being a fundamentalist. My entire bible thumping family considers me to be a flaming anti-christian liberal. I was bravely fighting the pro-evolution battle as a 12 year old child in a small cow town in Western Oklahoma long before you were even born, dick head. So show me some fucking respect. But I am also able to open my eyes and look at the world for what it really is. There simply is no actual threat from any thing even in the most remote sense relating to a 'Christian theocracy'. The notion is so far removed from reality that it belongs to a category of conspiracy theories usually associated with 'Area 51'. They simply do not exist. THey are not there. They are a figment of your imagination. An illusion. Christianity is hanging on by its teeth as a force to exert even the most humble influence on modern society. The notion that it represents any kind of danger to our civilization is pathetical hysterical and stupid. On the other hand, the entire Muslim world is exploding with rage at anything that is not of their world view. To not see that, to minimize it, to ratinalize it as something other that what is so obviously is, is an act of suicidal insanity. It has nothing to do with feelings of 'superiority', but everything to do with practical considerations of simple survival. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Whatever you say. I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days. It boils down to this... No one group is better then any other because they believe the earth was flat. To go around trying to persuade people to your point of view is one thing, but if and when they don't follow your logic to excommunicate them, torture them or blow them up is ultimately self defeating and breeds ignorance, hatred and bigotry. All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days
I seriously doubt that you have the slightest frigging clue about the last few thousands years of human history aside from what you've learned from google. Could you cite a single valid source?
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place
Well, fine. But I do not see anyone learning that lesson. Certainly not those who would so throughly marginalize any philosophy or way of viewing the world that is not sanctioned by the modern secular/humanist left. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:00 Saturday 28th January, 2006
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days
I seriously doubt that you have the slightest frigging clue about the last few thousands years of human history aside from what you've learned from google. Could you cite a single valid source?
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place
Well, fine. But I do not see anyone learning that lesson. Certainly not those who would so throughly marginalize any philosophy or way of viewing the world that is not sanctioned by the modern secular/humanist left. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:00 Saturday 28th January, 2006
Stan Shannon wrote:
I seriously doubt that you have the slightest frigging clue about the last few thousands years of human history aside from what you've learned from google. Could you cite a single valid source?
A souce of the misguided teachings? I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
you christian fundamentalists are just as bad
How can you possibly say that? I'm closer to being an athiest than I am to being a fundamentalist. My entire bible thumping family considers me to be a flaming anti-christian liberal. I was bravely fighting the pro-evolution battle as a 12 year old child in a small cow town in Western Oklahoma long before you were even born, dick head. So show me some fucking respect. But I am also able to open my eyes and look at the world for what it really is. There simply is no actual threat from any thing even in the most remote sense relating to a 'Christian theocracy'. The notion is so far removed from reality that it belongs to a category of conspiracy theories usually associated with 'Area 51'. They simply do not exist. THey are not there. They are a figment of your imagination. An illusion. Christianity is hanging on by its teeth as a force to exert even the most humble influence on modern society. The notion that it represents any kind of danger to our civilization is pathetical hysterical and stupid. On the other hand, the entire Muslim world is exploding with rage at anything that is not of their world view. To not see that, to minimize it, to ratinalize it as something other that what is so obviously is, is an act of suicidal insanity. It has nothing to do with feelings of 'superiority', but everything to do with practical considerations of simple survival. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I was bravely fighting the pro-evolution battle as a 12 year old child in a small cow town in Western Oklahoma long before you were even born.
I wasn't saying you personally, christians as a group.
Stan Shannon wrote:
There simply is no actual threat from any thing even in the most remote sense relating to a 'Christian theocracy'
Stan Shannon wrote:
On the other hand, the entire Muslim world is exploding with rage at anything that is not of their world view.
Muslem fundamentalists = Active Other fundamentalists = Passive They all want the same thing, to have the only real religion. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I seriously doubt that you have the slightest frigging clue about the last few thousands years of human history aside from what you've learned from google. Could you cite a single valid source?
A souce of the misguided teachings? I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society
Precisely as I thought. Like most making those kinds of claims you have not the slightest clue of what you are talking about. Tell you what, what don't you go to google and find the last actual war that was fought for reasons directly related to religion? (Our current 'war on terror' excepted, of course). Has religion played an important role in human culture? Well, fuck yes it has. In fact, religion largly defines most of what human culture actually is. But, so what? Has that been entirely bad? Would we even be here if it had not been so? How do you eliminate such a pervasive and fundamental concept? ANd if so, what do you replace it with? What is the substitute? Government? Hollywood? Humanism? And if you do, how do you prevent those things from becoming religions in their own right. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:18 Saturday 28th January, 2006
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society
Precisely as I thought. Like most making those kinds of claims you have not the slightest clue of what you are talking about. Tell you what, what don't you go to google and find the last actual war that was fought for reasons directly related to religion? (Our current 'war on terror' excepted, of course). Has religion played an important role in human culture? Well, fuck yes it has. In fact, religion largly defines most of what human culture actually is. But, so what? Has that been entirely bad? Would we even be here if it had not been so? How do you eliminate such a pervasive and fundamental concept? ANd if so, what do you replace it with? What is the substitute? Government? Hollywood? Humanism? And if you do, how do you prevent those things from becoming religions in their own right. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:18 Saturday 28th January, 2006
Your right, its not entirely bad. In fact there are a lot of good things in Religion. However, one belief system is no more valid then another. And when that belief system is used as a club to harm others its time to "kick it to the curb". It is obvious we do not agree on this issue, and thats fine by me. Each person needs to formulate there own answer the question of religion. My view is: It was good in the past It has been used to justify wars / conflicts It's importance needs to be deminished, people need to decide what makes sense to them and what they believe. Not follow some text some guy wrote thousands of years ago. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Your right, its not entirely bad. In fact there are a lot of good things in Religion. However, one belief system is no more valid then another. And when that belief system is used as a club to harm others its time to "kick it to the curb". It is obvious we do not agree on this issue, and thats fine by me. Each person needs to formulate there own answer the question of religion. My view is: It was good in the past It has been used to justify wars / conflicts It's importance needs to be deminished, people need to decide what makes sense to them and what they believe. Not follow some text some guy wrote thousands of years ago. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
We actually probably agree on far more than we disagree on. Its just that the entire attitude towards Chrisitanity that seems to have taken root among certain elements of our culture really gets under my skin. I have lived around Chrisitans my entire life and have found them almost universally to be among the kindest, most gentle and loving people one could wish to be around. I have met very few that expressed any political beliefs of any kind, and of those as many were left leaning as right leaning. Are many of them concerned about the direction our culture is taking? Yes. Do many of them vote according to those religious sentiments? Yes, they do. But the notion that they should not is so virulantly un-democratic and grossly anti-American, that I am just staggered by the implications of it. I absolutely believe that the left and the democratic party have become so thoroughly controlled by a coalition of extremists groups that they are trying to fabricate a fictious 'radical religious right' in order to be able to offset their own radicalism in the public mind. If they can keep the center's attention directed toward Christian Fundamentalism, their own extremism can be more easily camouflaged. And, again, it continues to just blow me away that we could be confronted with a very real and dangerous example of religious extremism coming from some other culture, yet we still continue to entertain this silly politcal charade. I just find the entire situation to be nearly beyond belief. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
That's what some Christian fundamentalists are praying for. They think a crisis in the M.E. will lead to the return of Jesus.
Not only the Christian fundamentalists. Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad belongs to a fundamentalist faction of Shia which waits for the comming of Imam Mahdi, one last muslim prophet which would come among a situation of chaos. Once again, the extremists (christians and muslims) are alike, not different. Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
Diego Moita wrote:
Once again, the extremists (christians and muslims) are alike, not different.
Except that muslim fundamentalists blow people up everyday in the name of their god. That rarely happens with christians, and when it does, the christians have no problem denouncing those people who commit such acts, whereas the muslims will rarely denounce a terrorist. And, the Koran and Hadith both command you to kill nonbelievers, whereas the New Testament does not. Perhaps i am just spreading my paranoid ideology of hatred and bigotry to suggest that Islam encourages violence, but the Islamists in the middle east seem to agree with me when they blow themselves and "infadels" up hoping to goto paradise, and actions speak louder than words. You may say that most muslims are moderate and do not believe in violence, but I would not trust any of them, because they claim to follow a book which encourages violence, whether liberal pacificists like you admit it or not. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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Stan Shannon wrote:
lets be sure to worry about those 4 guys
If it were only 4, Stan, I wouldn't worry. But there are more.
Like Stan, i live in the Bible Belt, and I have not seen any of these evil Christian Extremests that you speak of out destroying society. Perhaps since you are a liberal and know everything, you can enlighten me. Most of the people I see destroying society are liberals like you who have no idea about reality. The reason I say that you have no idea about reality is that I live in a Right-Wing Christian gun owning family, and it is nothing like you liberals say, we are not extremists or bigots, and we are not dangerous just because we own guns. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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peterchen wrote:
But we can stop making it worse.
There is only one solution to that problem, and it's not pretty. People, black, white, christian, muslims, whatever, will have to die due to a common catastrophy. That's the only way, IMO, to make people see others as partners rather than adversaries.
Dont we have HIV to do that ?
-Prakash