Christian Terrorists
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If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war. If they call themselves Muslims, and deliberately do the complete opposite to the beliefs of their religion, does that really make them Muslim? The keyword is "deliberately" - people fall short of religious beliefs and expectations all the time, but if they completely disregard what they profess to believe, and willingly decide to do the wrong thing, that is completely different. It is that basis that prompted my response to the original post - those people are acting in a completely opposite sense to what the Christian faith advocates. For the record, I don't believe the "Muslim" terrorists are Muslim. They are evil, period. It has nothing to do with religion.
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
Ryan Binns wrote:
If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war.
I agree, reading these verses, you definately get the idea that muslims are peaceful. :| * Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196 * Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57 * Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50 * Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want to expel you from this land (The Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it." Vol. 4:392 * Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were: "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula." Vol. 5:716
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NPR did a story on this a year ago. Pretty awful. How is it that people can do this sort of thing? But what I don't get is, why are these people called "Christians"? Marc Pensieve
Marc Clifton wrote:
But what I don't get is, why are these people called "Christians"?
Because they apply the label to themselves, I would assume. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Ryan Binns wrote:
If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war.
I agree, reading these verses, you definately get the idea that muslims are peaceful. :| * Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196 * Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57 * Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50 * Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want to expel you from this land (The Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it." Vol. 4:392 * Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were: "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula." Vol. 5:716
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Ryan Binns wrote: If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war. I agree, reading these verses, you definately get the idea that muslims are peaceful.
First off to clarify, these quotes are not from the Quran. Second I really suggest you start learning about Islam from an 'Islamic source' [or at least use it as a supplement to better your weak undestanding] rather than copying and pasting from the same anti-Islamic site [which tends to distort context and put half-quotes which is sometimes worse than lying], otherwise you will not get an understanding of Islam as Islam is to be understood. So lets take one of your quotes
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
* Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50
The implication your trying to get is that Muslims are permitted to kill non-muslims. Well try to reconcile it with the many hadiths to the contrary: For example the Prophet pbuh is reported to have said "He who hurts a Dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
* Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196
The implication that you want to get from this is under Islam people will be killed if they do not convert. Without giving what this statement is even in reference too, this implication that your trying to get across CLEARY CONTRADICTS THE QURAN. So I can start explaining what this is about, or I can say you need to learn the abc's of Islam first. I will opt for the second.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Ryan Binns wrote:
If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war.
I agree, reading these verses, you definately get the idea that muslims are peaceful. :| * Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196 * Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57 * Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50 * Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want to expel you from this land (The Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it." Vol. 4:392 * Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were: "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula." Vol. 5:716
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Different Muslim sects draw from Hadith selectively. But please, continue with your talking points. I'm sure you've researched them extensively. - F
Ok, here is a verse from the Quran Sura 9:5 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful.
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Mary and the other children walk to safety every night because they fear abduction by the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), a Christian fundamentalist rebel group that uses children as soldiers, porters and sex slaves. The LRA carries out its raids at night, storming into villages from the surrounding bush, killing adults and forcing children to bludgeon their parents before marching them away to camps deep in the bush.[^]
Grrrr! :mad: They're not Christians! And so are those abortion-clinic-bombing gay-bashing bible-thumping racist fundies supported by the likes of Pat Robertson! Shame on you for labeling yourselves Christians! :mad: *Recent events made me lean more to liberal Christians. Edbert Sydney, Australia
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Ok, here is a verse from the Quran Sura 9:5 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful.
What do you think this is saying? To help you in answering this [as information for your own self] read the Ayah right before and after it. Also the translation is a bit strange, where did you find it [a google search leads to missionary and the usual anti-Islam sites]?
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Different Muslim sects draw from Hadith selectively. But please, continue with your talking points. I'm sure you've researched them extensively. - F
I definately like your sarcastiveness (is that a word..!?) :)
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They're not Christian.
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
They say they are. There's a few passages about leaving your family behind that probably could be used to justify the abduction - if you are an asshat. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
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They say they are. There's a few passages about leaving your family behind that probably could be used to justify the abduction - if you are an asshat. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
They say they are
That doesn't mean a lot. I could tell you I'm a Christian, but unless I back it up with actions then it doesn't mean anything. I am a Christian, and I certainly try to show it in how I live. I never swear, don't drink or smoke or anything like that. I don't have problems with other people doing so - I merely want to show (peacefully) that I am serious about what I believe. Idle words without backing it up with actions mean nothing.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
There's a few passages about leaving your family behind that probably could be used to justify the abduction
Only if they're taken completely out of context. Besides, it always talks about it being a voluntary action, and there are a lot of passages about respecting children and not murdering as well. I realise you weren't disagreeing with me. I'm simply fleshing out the facts in case other people don't know them
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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NPR did a story on this a year ago. Pretty awful. How is it that people can do this sort of thing? But what I don't get is, why are these people called "Christians"? Marc Pensieve
Marc Clifton wrote:
why are these people called "Christians"?
Probably for the same reason we use the label "muslim terrorist" :rolleyes:
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison Awasu 2.2 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project.
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I definately like your sarcastiveness (is that a word..!?) :)
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
sarcastiveness (is that a word..!?)
I dunno, but I sure like it :)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Ryan Binns wrote: If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war. I agree, reading these verses, you definately get the idea that muslims are peaceful.
First off to clarify, these quotes are not from the Quran. Second I really suggest you start learning about Islam from an 'Islamic source' [or at least use it as a supplement to better your weak undestanding] rather than copying and pasting from the same anti-Islamic site [which tends to distort context and put half-quotes which is sometimes worse than lying], otherwise you will not get an understanding of Islam as Islam is to be understood. So lets take one of your quotes
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
* Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50
The implication your trying to get is that Muslims are permitted to kill non-muslims. Well try to reconcile it with the many hadiths to the contrary: For example the Prophet pbuh is reported to have said "He who hurts a Dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
* Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196
The implication that you want to get from this is under Islam people will be killed if they do not convert. Without giving what this statement is even in reference too, this implication that your trying to get across CLEARY CONTRADICTS THE QURAN. So I can start explaining what this is about, or I can say you need to learn the abc's of Islam first. I will opt for the second.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
Well try to reconcile it with the many hadiths to the contrary
Isn't it the case that many Islamic scholars believe that the later hadith and sura override the earlier (the princible of abrogation) in the case of clear contradiction. And unfortunately, Mohameds character seems to change for the worse as he aquired power. "Fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors (2:190)" On the authority of Ga'far ar-Razi from Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, from 'Abil-'Aliyah who said: This is the first verse that was revealed in the Qur'an about fighting in the Madina. When it was revealed the prophet used to fight those who fight with him and avoid those who avoid him, until Sura 9 was revealed. And so is the opinion of 'Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam who said this verse was cancelled by 9:5 "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them"[ bn Hazm al-Andalusi, An-Nasikh wal- Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, P.27] "the scholars differed concerning Q. 2:256. (There is no compulsion if religion) Some said: 'It has been abrogated [cancelled] for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fought them and did not accept any alternative but their surrender to Islam. The abrogating verse is Q. 9:73 'O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them.' Mohammad asked Allah the permission to fight them and it was granted. Other scholars said Q. 2:256 has not been abrogated, but it had a special application. It was revealed concerning the people of the Book [the Jews and the Christians]; they can not be compelled to embrace Islam if they pay the Jizia (that is head tax on free non-Muslims under Muslim rule). It is only the idol worshippers who are compelled to embrace Islam and upon them Q. 9:73 applies. This is the opinion of Ibn 'Abbas which is the best opinion due to the authenticity of its chain of authority."[ al-Nahas, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh, p.80. See also Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, A-Nnasikh wal-Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, p.42.] Now, you may disagree with this, but it clearly the case that many Islamic clerics do not. I hope your real Islam wins through. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their bru
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
They say they are
That doesn't mean a lot. I could tell you I'm a Christian, but unless I back it up with actions then it doesn't mean anything. I am a Christian, and I certainly try to show it in how I live. I never swear, don't drink or smoke or anything like that. I don't have problems with other people doing so - I merely want to show (peacefully) that I am serious about what I believe. Idle words without backing it up with actions mean nothing.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
There's a few passages about leaving your family behind that probably could be used to justify the abduction
Only if they're taken completely out of context. Besides, it always talks about it being a voluntary action, and there are a lot of passages about respecting children and not murdering as well. I realise you weren't disagreeing with me. I'm simply fleshing out the facts in case other people don't know them
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
Ryan Binns wrote:
That doesn't mean a lot. I could tell you I'm a Christian, but unless I back it up with actions then it doesn't mean anything. I am a Christian, and I certainly try to show it in how I live. I never swear, don't drink or smoke or anything like that. I don't have problems with other people doing so - I merely want to show (peacefully) that I am serious about what I believe.
Yep, that makes you are a christian in my heathen eyes, I wasn't really trying to offend, just pointing out that complete asshats can make interpretations that are far less benign. The stress was on the asshat. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
why are these people called "Christians"?
Probably for the same reason we use the label "muslim terrorist" :rolleyes:
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison Awasu 2.2 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project.
Well you are right. It's a matter of fact that many crimes where commited in the name of religion, but I think not even one was directed by god. So you can call yourself in the way you like. I could say, well I'm a muslim and then bomb a hotel away or I can say I'm christian and do it. It's hard to segregate. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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Ryan Binns wrote:
That doesn't mean a lot. I could tell you I'm a Christian, but unless I back it up with actions then it doesn't mean anything. I am a Christian, and I certainly try to show it in how I live. I never swear, don't drink or smoke or anything like that. I don't have problems with other people doing so - I merely want to show (peacefully) that I am serious about what I believe.
Yep, that makes you are a christian in my heathen eyes, I wasn't really trying to offend, just pointing out that complete asshats can make interpretations that are far less benign. The stress was on the asshat. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I wasn't really trying to offend
I know. None taken :)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Ryan Binns wrote: If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war. I agree, reading these verses, you definately get the idea that muslims are peaceful.
First off to clarify, these quotes are not from the Quran. Second I really suggest you start learning about Islam from an 'Islamic source' [or at least use it as a supplement to better your weak undestanding] rather than copying and pasting from the same anti-Islamic site [which tends to distort context and put half-quotes which is sometimes worse than lying], otherwise you will not get an understanding of Islam as Islam is to be understood. So lets take one of your quotes
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
* Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50
The implication your trying to get is that Muslims are permitted to kill non-muslims. Well try to reconcile it with the many hadiths to the contrary: For example the Prophet pbuh is reported to have said "He who hurts a Dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
* Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196
The implication that you want to get from this is under Islam people will be killed if they do not convert. Without giving what this statement is even in reference too, this implication that your trying to get across CLEARY CONTRADICTS THE QURAN. So I can start explaining what this is about, or I can say you need to learn the abc's of Islam first. I will opt for the second.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
I will opt for the second.
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion? No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good. "You get that which you tolerate"
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A.A. wrote:
Well try to reconcile it with the many hadiths to the contrary
Isn't it the case that many Islamic scholars believe that the later hadith and sura override the earlier (the princible of abrogation) in the case of clear contradiction. And unfortunately, Mohameds character seems to change for the worse as he aquired power. "Fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors (2:190)" On the authority of Ga'far ar-Razi from Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, from 'Abil-'Aliyah who said: This is the first verse that was revealed in the Qur'an about fighting in the Madina. When it was revealed the prophet used to fight those who fight with him and avoid those who avoid him, until Sura 9 was revealed. And so is the opinion of 'Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam who said this verse was cancelled by 9:5 "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them"[ bn Hazm al-Andalusi, An-Nasikh wal- Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, P.27] "the scholars differed concerning Q. 2:256. (There is no compulsion if religion) Some said: 'It has been abrogated [cancelled] for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fought them and did not accept any alternative but their surrender to Islam. The abrogating verse is Q. 9:73 'O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them.' Mohammad asked Allah the permission to fight them and it was granted. Other scholars said Q. 2:256 has not been abrogated, but it had a special application. It was revealed concerning the people of the Book [the Jews and the Christians]; they can not be compelled to embrace Islam if they pay the Jizia (that is head tax on free non-Muslims under Muslim rule). It is only the idol worshippers who are compelled to embrace Islam and upon them Q. 9:73 applies. This is the opinion of Ibn 'Abbas which is the best opinion due to the authenticity of its chain of authority."[ al-Nahas, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh, p.80. See also Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, A-Nnasikh wal-Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, p.42.] Now, you may disagree with this, but it clearly the case that many Islamic clerics do not. I hope your real Islam wins through. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their bru
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
Like it. :-D
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A.A. wrote:
I will opt for the second.
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion? No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion?
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)? The most people who aren't fundamental don't want to be killed because they try to stop any terrorist.
Stan Shannon wrote:
No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good.
I can't find any arguement against. Sorry. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion?
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)? The most people who aren't fundamental don't want to be killed because they try to stop any terrorist.
Stan Shannon wrote:
No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good.
I can't find any arguement against. Sorry. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
ihoecken wrote:
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)?
We don't. The Terrorism of northern Ireland was pursued vigorously by western societies. That is why it is no longer going on. "You get that which you tolerate"