Christian Terrorists
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Ryan Binns wrote: If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war. I agree, reading these verses, you definately get the idea that muslims are peaceful.
First off to clarify, these quotes are not from the Quran. Second I really suggest you start learning about Islam from an 'Islamic source' [or at least use it as a supplement to better your weak undestanding] rather than copying and pasting from the same anti-Islamic site [which tends to distort context and put half-quotes which is sometimes worse than lying], otherwise you will not get an understanding of Islam as Islam is to be understood. So lets take one of your quotes
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
* Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50
The implication your trying to get is that Muslims are permitted to kill non-muslims. Well try to reconcile it with the many hadiths to the contrary: For example the Prophet pbuh is reported to have said "He who hurts a Dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
* Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196
The implication that you want to get from this is under Islam people will be killed if they do not convert. Without giving what this statement is even in reference too, this implication that your trying to get across CLEARY CONTRADICTS THE QURAN. So I can start explaining what this is about, or I can say you need to learn the abc's of Islam first. I will opt for the second.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
I will opt for the second.
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion? No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good. "You get that which you tolerate"
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A.A. wrote:
Well try to reconcile it with the many hadiths to the contrary
Isn't it the case that many Islamic scholars believe that the later hadith and sura override the earlier (the princible of abrogation) in the case of clear contradiction. And unfortunately, Mohameds character seems to change for the worse as he aquired power. "Fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors (2:190)" On the authority of Ga'far ar-Razi from Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, from 'Abil-'Aliyah who said: This is the first verse that was revealed in the Qur'an about fighting in the Madina. When it was revealed the prophet used to fight those who fight with him and avoid those who avoid him, until Sura 9 was revealed. And so is the opinion of 'Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam who said this verse was cancelled by 9:5 "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them"[ bn Hazm al-Andalusi, An-Nasikh wal- Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, P.27] "the scholars differed concerning Q. 2:256. (There is no compulsion if religion) Some said: 'It has been abrogated [cancelled] for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fought them and did not accept any alternative but their surrender to Islam. The abrogating verse is Q. 9:73 'O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them.' Mohammad asked Allah the permission to fight them and it was granted. Other scholars said Q. 2:256 has not been abrogated, but it had a special application. It was revealed concerning the people of the Book [the Jews and the Christians]; they can not be compelled to embrace Islam if they pay the Jizia (that is head tax on free non-Muslims under Muslim rule). It is only the idol worshippers who are compelled to embrace Islam and upon them Q. 9:73 applies. This is the opinion of Ibn 'Abbas which is the best opinion due to the authenticity of its chain of authority."[ al-Nahas, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh, p.80. See also Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, A-Nnasikh wal-Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, p.42.] Now, you may disagree with this, but it clearly the case that many Islamic clerics do not. I hope your real Islam wins through. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their bru
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
Like it. :-D
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A.A. wrote:
I will opt for the second.
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion? No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion?
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)? The most people who aren't fundamental don't want to be killed because they try to stop any terrorist.
Stan Shannon wrote:
No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good.
I can't find any arguement against. Sorry. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion?
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)? The most people who aren't fundamental don't want to be killed because they try to stop any terrorist.
Stan Shannon wrote:
No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good.
I can't find any arguement against. Sorry. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
ihoecken wrote:
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)?
We don't. The Terrorism of northern Ireland was pursued vigorously by western societies. That is why it is no longer going on. "You get that which you tolerate"
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
Like it. :-D
Blame Eric Idle :) Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
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ihoecken wrote:
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)?
We don't. The Terrorism of northern Ireland was pursued vigorously by western societies. That is why it is no longer going on. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
We don't. The Terrorism of northern Ireland was pursued vigorously by western societies. That is why it is no longer going on.
You know that there are attacks from both sides even the IRA has discontinued their fight?! Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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Stan Shannon wrote:
We don't. The Terrorism of northern Ireland was pursued vigorously by western societies. That is why it is no longer going on.
You know that there are attacks from both sides even the IRA has discontinued their fight?! Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
ihoecken wrote:
You know that there are attacks from both sides even the IRA has discontinued their fight
Thats squabbling over drug dealing and other gangster crap, not a religious war. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
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A.A. wrote:
Well try to reconcile it with the many hadiths to the contrary
Isn't it the case that many Islamic scholars believe that the later hadith and sura override the earlier (the princible of abrogation) in the case of clear contradiction. And unfortunately, Mohameds character seems to change for the worse as he aquired power. "Fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors (2:190)" On the authority of Ga'far ar-Razi from Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, from 'Abil-'Aliyah who said: This is the first verse that was revealed in the Qur'an about fighting in the Madina. When it was revealed the prophet used to fight those who fight with him and avoid those who avoid him, until Sura 9 was revealed. And so is the opinion of 'Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam who said this verse was cancelled by 9:5 "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them"[ bn Hazm al-Andalusi, An-Nasikh wal- Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, P.27] "the scholars differed concerning Q. 2:256. (There is no compulsion if religion) Some said: 'It has been abrogated [cancelled] for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fought them and did not accept any alternative but their surrender to Islam. The abrogating verse is Q. 9:73 'O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them.' Mohammad asked Allah the permission to fight them and it was granted. Other scholars said Q. 2:256 has not been abrogated, but it had a special application. It was revealed concerning the people of the Book [the Jews and the Christians]; they can not be compelled to embrace Islam if they pay the Jizia (that is head tax on free non-Muslims under Muslim rule). It is only the idol worshippers who are compelled to embrace Islam and upon them Q. 9:73 applies. This is the opinion of Ibn 'Abbas which is the best opinion due to the authenticity of its chain of authority."[ al-Nahas, An-Nasikh wal-Mansukh, p.80. See also Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, A-Nnasikh wal-Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, p.42.] Now, you may disagree with this, but it clearly the case that many Islamic clerics do not. I hope your real Islam wins through. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their bru
I think you might of somewhat misunderstood the 'concept of Naskh', though I am not sure what your post has to do with the above post. I think you ment to post this in response to the post below. If so there no need to overly complicate it and I give you the same advice as Pumk1nh3ad in that you might to check out the Ayah before and afterwards.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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A.A. wrote:
I will opt for the second.
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion? No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good. "You get that which you tolerate"
Is this where I am supposed to replace the words Muslims with Christians and the Koran with the Bible, and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Is this where I am supposed to replace the words Muslims with Christians and the Koran with the Bible, and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
You can't blame the bible or god for any christian who thinks he can kill in their names. Neither you can't blame the Koran or Alah for any muslum who kills in their names. And you don't want to start counting killings, do you? BUT: you can blame a religion for the laws it gives to its believers and there the new testament says somthing complete diffeent than the koran does. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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ihoecken wrote:
You know that there are attacks from both sides even the IRA has discontinued their fight
Thats squabbling over drug dealing and other gangster crap, not a religious war. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Thats squabbling over drug dealing and other gangster crap, not a religious war.
Yes of course. You're right. Because some wants to make their procession in the area of the other group and the others fight them with violence they are gangsters but if someone calls himself member of IRA he is a fighter in the name of god. Very good point. I think you apply double standards. Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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You can't blame the bible or god for any christian who thinks he can kill in their names. Neither you can't blame the Koran or Alah for any muslum who kills in their names. And you don't want to start counting killings, do you? BUT: you can blame a religion for the laws it gives to its believers and there the new testament says somthing complete diffeent than the koran does. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
ihoecken wrote:
You can't blame the bible or god for any christian who thinks he can kill in their names. Neither you can't blame the Koran or Alah for any muslum who kills in their names. And you don't want to start counting killings, do you?
Just to clarify this was not a post in anyway to put blame on Christianity for anything rather a response for a sepecific group of people, in that they may contemplate what they are saying.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Is this where I am supposed to replace the words Muslims with Christians and the Koran with the Bible, and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
I'd settle for a single modern example of that. "You get that which you tolerate"
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I think you might of somewhat misunderstood the 'concept of Naskh', though I am not sure what your post has to do with the above post. I think you ment to post this in response to the post below. If so there no need to overly complicate it and I give you the same advice as Pumk1nh3ad in that you might to check out the Ayah before and afterwards.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
Yeah, was the wrong parent post, sorry.
A.A. wrote:
I think you might of somewhat misunderstood the 'concept of Naskh'
What is your interpretation?, I hear it varies quite widely (all the way up to the verses being able to coexist and any conflict explained rationaly without reference to their historical order) as the sura that mandates is itsself quite ambiguous.
A.A. wrote:
might to check out the Ayah before and afterwards.
That can (and has been) interpreted as mandating a period of rest , before continuing a war. Ibn Ishaq A discharge came down, permitting the breaking of the agreement between the apostle and the polytheists that none should be kept back from the temple when he came to it, and that none need fear during the sacred months. That there was a general agreement between him and the polytheists; meanwhile there were particular agreements between the apostle and the Arab tribes for specified terms. And there came down about it and about the disaffected who held back from him in the raid on Tabuk, and about what they said (revelations) in which God uncovered the secret thoughts of people who were dissembling. We know the names of some of them, of others we do not. He said [1] "A discharge from God and His apostle towards those polytheists with whom you made a treaty," i.e. those polytheists with whom you made a general agreement. "So travel through the land for four months and know that you cannot escape God and that God will put the unbelievers to shame. And a proclamation from God and His apostle to men on the day of the greater pilgrimage that God and His apostle are free from obligation to the polytheists," i.e., after this pilgrimage. So if you repent it will be better for you; and if you turn back know that you cannot escape God. Inform those who disbelieve, about a painful punishment except those polytheists with whom you have made a treaty," i.e. the special treaty for a specified term, "Since they have not come short in anything in regard to you and have not helped anyone against you. So fulfill your treaty with them to their allotted time. God loves the pious. And when the sacred months are passed, He means the four which he fixed as their time, "then kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and seize them and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. But if they repent and perform prayer and pay the poor-tax, then let them go their way
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A.A. wrote:
and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
I'd settle for a single modern example of that. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I'd settle for a single modern example of that.
Its not exactly hard finding them (ie Srebrenica)
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Mary and the other children walk to safety every night because they fear abduction by the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), a Christian fundamentalist rebel group that uses children as soldiers, porters and sex slaves. The LRA carries out its raids at night, storming into villages from the surrounding bush, killing adults and forcing children to bludgeon their parents before marching them away to camps deep in the bush.[^]
The obvious and ignored thing here is that this LRA is an obscure group of crazies in some country in the middle of Africa which does not represent Christian (as they call themselves) behavior at all. Violent behavior is the norm for the vast majority of Muslims, however.
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Is this where I am supposed to replace the words Muslims with Christians and the Koran with the Bible, and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
Erm, no. we all have a lot of blood on our hands. Armenian genocide: 1.5 million. Bangladesh, 1971: ~3 million, disputed. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
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ihoecken wrote:
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)?
We don't. The Terrorism of northern Ireland was pursued vigorously by western societies. That is why it is no longer going on. "You get that which you tolerate"
Except for NORAID that actively promoted IRA terrorism. Anyway, did the Pope intervene? No, he sat back with his head up his arse. The reason terrorism is now on the wane in Ireland is beause the place has had such an ecconomic boom no one can be bothered with the old arguments, they are having too much fun making money. And that was told me by a southern irish guy. Nunc est bibendum
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Except for NORAID that actively promoted IRA terrorism. Anyway, did the Pope intervene? No, he sat back with his head up his arse. The reason terrorism is now on the wane in Ireland is beause the place has had such an ecconomic boom no one can be bothered with the old arguments, they are having too much fun making money. And that was told me by a southern irish guy. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
Except for NORAID that actively promoted IRA terrorism. Anyway, did the Pope intervene? No, he sat back with his head up his arse. The reason terrorism is now on the wane in Ireland is beause the place has had such an ecconomic boom no one can be bothered with the old arguments, they are having too much fun making money.
Thank you. This is a point. Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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A.A. wrote:
I will opt for the second.
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion? No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good. "You get that which you tolerate"
:laugh: Well said.