Christian Terrorists
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You can't blame the bible or god for any christian who thinks he can kill in their names. Neither you can't blame the Koran or Alah for any muslum who kills in their names. And you don't want to start counting killings, do you? BUT: you can blame a religion for the laws it gives to its believers and there the new testament says somthing complete diffeent than the koran does. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
ihoecken wrote:
You can't blame the bible or god for any christian who thinks he can kill in their names. Neither you can't blame the Koran or Alah for any muslum who kills in their names. And you don't want to start counting killings, do you?
Just to clarify this was not a post in anyway to put blame on Christianity for anything rather a response for a sepecific group of people, in that they may contemplate what they are saying.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Is this where I am supposed to replace the words Muslims with Christians and the Koran with the Bible, and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
I'd settle for a single modern example of that. "You get that which you tolerate"
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I think you might of somewhat misunderstood the 'concept of Naskh', though I am not sure what your post has to do with the above post. I think you ment to post this in response to the post below. If so there no need to overly complicate it and I give you the same advice as Pumk1nh3ad in that you might to check out the Ayah before and afterwards.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
Yeah, was the wrong parent post, sorry.
A.A. wrote:
I think you might of somewhat misunderstood the 'concept of Naskh'
What is your interpretation?, I hear it varies quite widely (all the way up to the verses being able to coexist and any conflict explained rationaly without reference to their historical order) as the sura that mandates is itsself quite ambiguous.
A.A. wrote:
might to check out the Ayah before and afterwards.
That can (and has been) interpreted as mandating a period of rest , before continuing a war. Ibn Ishaq A discharge came down, permitting the breaking of the agreement between the apostle and the polytheists that none should be kept back from the temple when he came to it, and that none need fear during the sacred months. That there was a general agreement between him and the polytheists; meanwhile there were particular agreements between the apostle and the Arab tribes for specified terms. And there came down about it and about the disaffected who held back from him in the raid on Tabuk, and about what they said (revelations) in which God uncovered the secret thoughts of people who were dissembling. We know the names of some of them, of others we do not. He said [1] "A discharge from God and His apostle towards those polytheists with whom you made a treaty," i.e. those polytheists with whom you made a general agreement. "So travel through the land for four months and know that you cannot escape God and that God will put the unbelievers to shame. And a proclamation from God and His apostle to men on the day of the greater pilgrimage that God and His apostle are free from obligation to the polytheists," i.e., after this pilgrimage. So if you repent it will be better for you; and if you turn back know that you cannot escape God. Inform those who disbelieve, about a painful punishment except those polytheists with whom you have made a treaty," i.e. the special treaty for a specified term, "Since they have not come short in anything in regard to you and have not helped anyone against you. So fulfill your treaty with them to their allotted time. God loves the pious. And when the sacred months are passed, He means the four which he fixed as their time, "then kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and seize them and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. But if they repent and perform prayer and pay the poor-tax, then let them go their way
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A.A. wrote:
and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
I'd settle for a single modern example of that. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I'd settle for a single modern example of that.
Its not exactly hard finding them (ie Srebrenica)
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Mary and the other children walk to safety every night because they fear abduction by the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), a Christian fundamentalist rebel group that uses children as soldiers, porters and sex slaves. The LRA carries out its raids at night, storming into villages from the surrounding bush, killing adults and forcing children to bludgeon their parents before marching them away to camps deep in the bush.[^]
The obvious and ignored thing here is that this LRA is an obscure group of crazies in some country in the middle of Africa which does not represent Christian (as they call themselves) behavior at all. Violent behavior is the norm for the vast majority of Muslims, however.
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Is this where I am supposed to replace the words Muslims with Christians and the Koran with the Bible, and say how in modern history they have managed to kill orders of magnitudes more people of whatever Muslims killed?
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
Erm, no. we all have a lot of blood on our hands. Armenian genocide: 1.5 million. Bangladesh, 1971: ~3 million, disputed. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
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ihoecken wrote:
Well your right, but where is it written, that we are allowed to stand around while christians kill in the "name of religion" (for example in ireland)?
We don't. The Terrorism of northern Ireland was pursued vigorously by western societies. That is why it is no longer going on. "You get that which you tolerate"
Except for NORAID that actively promoted IRA terrorism. Anyway, did the Pope intervene? No, he sat back with his head up his arse. The reason terrorism is now on the wane in Ireland is beause the place has had such an ecconomic boom no one can be bothered with the old arguments, they are having too much fun making money. And that was told me by a southern irish guy. Nunc est bibendum
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Except for NORAID that actively promoted IRA terrorism. Anyway, did the Pope intervene? No, he sat back with his head up his arse. The reason terrorism is now on the wane in Ireland is beause the place has had such an ecconomic boom no one can be bothered with the old arguments, they are having too much fun making money. And that was told me by a southern irish guy. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
Except for NORAID that actively promoted IRA terrorism. Anyway, did the Pope intervene? No, he sat back with his head up his arse. The reason terrorism is now on the wane in Ireland is beause the place has had such an ecconomic boom no one can be bothered with the old arguments, they are having too much fun making money.
Thank you. This is a point. Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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A.A. wrote:
I will opt for the second.
I'll opt for you simply explaining which part of the Koran allows moderate muslims to stand around with their heads up their asses while swarms of muslim fundamentalists murder thousands in the name of their religion? No matter how you look at it, that goddamned Koran ain't doing nobody any good. "You get that which you tolerate"
:laugh: Well said.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I'd settle for a single modern example of that.
Its not exactly hard finding them (ie Srebrenica)
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
Its not exactly hard finding them (ie Srebrenica)
Bad example because it doesn't that equate to the the west having its head up its ass. We went in and put an end to the violence. That is a perfect example of the kind of behavior I would expect from the nations of Islam if they trully had the courage of their convictions. Try again. "You get that which you tolerate"
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Erm, no. we all have a lot of blood on our hands. Armenian genocide: 1.5 million. Bangladesh, 1971: ~3 million, disputed. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Armenian genocide: 1.5 million. Bangladesh, 1971: ~3 million, disputed.
:confused: "You get that which you tolerate"
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The obvious and ignored thing here is that this LRA is an obscure group of crazies in some country in the middle of Africa which does not represent Christian (as they call themselves) behavior at all. Violent behavior is the norm for the vast majority of Muslims, however.
espeir wrote:
Violent behavior is the norm for the vast majority of Muslims, however.
WOW. Are you always this good at pulling wild-ass generalisations out of your ass. :doh: Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] BAD DAY FOR: Friendly competition, as Ford Motor Co. declared the employee parking lot at its truck plant in Dearborn, Mich., off limits to vehicles built by rival companies. Workers have to drive a Ford to work, or park across the street. [CNNMoney.com] Nice sig! [Tim Deveaux on Matt Newman's sig with a quote from me]
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Except for NORAID that actively promoted IRA terrorism. Anyway, did the Pope intervene? No, he sat back with his head up his arse. The reason terrorism is now on the wane in Ireland is beause the place has had such an ecconomic boom no one can be bothered with the old arguments, they are having too much fun making money. And that was told me by a southern irish guy. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
Except for NORAID that actively promoted IRA terrorism.
Which was illegal, and dealt with harsely. It wasn't tolerated.
fat_boy wrote:
The reason terrorism is now on the wane in Ireland is beause the place has had such an ecconomic boom no one can be bothered with the old arguments, they are having too much fun making money.
BUt the point is that it was prosecuted by the nations and societies of the west where it was being produced. A solution to it ws pursued vigorously. We simply do not see that same level of committment from the middle east, either from their public or their goverments. If we did it would be a far more manageable problem.
fat_boy wrote:
And that was told me by a southern irish guy.
And he was damn sure right. ;P (And, btw, most Southerns are Irish). We do need to develope the economies of the middle east. If these people had economic hope they would be far less tempted to commit suicide. But, they have to be willing to accept change, and that means a much more forceful excercise of social outrage from the moderate muslims at violence from within their own communities. And that is what we are not seeing. "You get that which you tolerate"
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Armenian genocide: 1.5 million. Bangladesh, 1971: ~3 million, disputed.
:confused: "You get that which you tolerate"
Numbers of deaths from 2 genocidal acts by muslims in the 20th century, the second with enthusiastic complicity from the mosques, unsure about the first. Ryan
Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all.
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espeir wrote:
Violent behavior is the norm for the vast majority of Muslims, however.
WOW. Are you always this good at pulling wild-ass generalisations out of your ass. :doh: Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] BAD DAY FOR: Friendly competition, as Ford Motor Co. declared the employee parking lot at its truck plant in Dearborn, Mich., off limits to vehicles built by rival companies. Workers have to drive a Ford to work, or park across the street. [CNNMoney.com] Nice sig! [Tim Deveaux on Matt Newman's sig with a quote from me]
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=5562[^]
The Daily Start wrote:
While only 4.7 percent of respondents supported bin Laden as leader, 48.7 percent had a positive opinion of his rhetoric.
That's 48.7 percent of Saudis (supposedly on of the most western friendly arab nations) actually outright like Bin Laden's terror threats!
Our poll was taken after three deadly attacks in Riyadh last year, but before those in 2004 that killed many Muslims and Saudis. Therefore, we expect support for bin Laden to have dwindled even further. (It's also important to note that this support had already plummeted by late 2003, whereas immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks, a poll sponsored by the Saudi intelligence community found a 96 percent approval rating for bin Laden's ideas - about double the current figure).
So just after 9/11 96% of Saudis bought into Bin Laden's ideologies right after he launched a violent attack on American civilians! I would consider that a "vast majority" type of figure. And let's not forget suicide bombings in Israel and Iraq, the violent regimes that cut off arms if you steal an apple, the riots over a cartoon that killed 45, bus bombings in London, trains blown up in Spain, buildings demolished in the Phillipines, a murderous (now removed) regime in Afghanistan, another (yet to be removed) in Iran, numerous people beheaded on television, toture and murder for women who have been raped...The list goes on. But I speak out of turn. Clearly I am making wild-ass generalizations.
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A.A. wrote:
Its not exactly hard finding them (ie Srebrenica)
Bad example because it doesn't that equate to the the west having its head up its ass. We went in and put an end to the violence. That is a perfect example of the kind of behavior I would expect from the nations of Islam if they trully had the courage of their convictions. Try again. "You get that which you tolerate"
Sure if you call the UN handing the civilians over to be killed as doing something. Fine Rwanda.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=5562[^]
The Daily Start wrote:
While only 4.7 percent of respondents supported bin Laden as leader, 48.7 percent had a positive opinion of his rhetoric.
That's 48.7 percent of Saudis (supposedly on of the most western friendly arab nations) actually outright like Bin Laden's terror threats!
Our poll was taken after three deadly attacks in Riyadh last year, but before those in 2004 that killed many Muslims and Saudis. Therefore, we expect support for bin Laden to have dwindled even further. (It's also important to note that this support had already plummeted by late 2003, whereas immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks, a poll sponsored by the Saudi intelligence community found a 96 percent approval rating for bin Laden's ideas - about double the current figure).
So just after 9/11 96% of Saudis bought into Bin Laden's ideologies right after he launched a violent attack on American civilians! I would consider that a "vast majority" type of figure. And let's not forget suicide bombings in Israel and Iraq, the violent regimes that cut off arms if you steal an apple, the riots over a cartoon that killed 45, bus bombings in London, trains blown up in Spain, buildings demolished in the Phillipines, a murderous (now removed) regime in Afghanistan, another (yet to be removed) in Iran, numerous people beheaded on television, toture and murder for women who have been raped...The list goes on. But I speak out of turn. Clearly I am making wild-ass generalizations.
espeir wrote:
Clearly I am making wild-ass generalizations.
The key is in your own statement.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=5562[^]
The Daily Start wrote:
While only 4.7 percent of respondents supported bin Laden as leader, 48.7 percent had a positive opinion of his rhetoric.
That's 48.7 percent of Saudis (supposedly on of the most western friendly arab nations) actually outright like Bin Laden's terror threats!
Our poll was taken after three deadly attacks in Riyadh last year, but before those in 2004 that killed many Muslims and Saudis. Therefore, we expect support for bin Laden to have dwindled even further. (It's also important to note that this support had already plummeted by late 2003, whereas immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks, a poll sponsored by the Saudi intelligence community found a 96 percent approval rating for bin Laden's ideas - about double the current figure).
So just after 9/11 96% of Saudis bought into Bin Laden's ideologies right after he launched a violent attack on American civilians! I would consider that a "vast majority" type of figure. And let's not forget suicide bombings in Israel and Iraq, the violent regimes that cut off arms if you steal an apple, the riots over a cartoon that killed 45, bus bombings in London, trains blown up in Spain, buildings demolished in the Phillipines, a murderous (now removed) regime in Afghanistan, another (yet to be removed) in Iran, numerous people beheaded on television, toture and murder for women who have been raped...The list goes on. But I speak out of turn. Clearly I am making wild-ass generalizations.
espeir wrote:
Clearly I am making wild-ass generalizations.
If the shoe fits, buddy. First off your original post says muslims and the article you link is all about Saudis. Second, if you bothered to read the entire article and you'd find this quote "While it is true that Saudi Arabia remains a deeply traditional society, the poll revealed that only a very small minority embraced the extremist policies offered by bin Laden and his followers." Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] BAD DAY FOR: Friendly competition, as Ford Motor Co. declared the employee parking lot at its truck plant in Dearborn, Mich., off limits to vehicles built by rival companies. Workers have to drive a Ford to work, or park across the street. [CNNMoney.com] Nice sig! [Tim Deveaux on Matt Newman's sig with a quote from me]
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Mary and the other children walk to safety every night because they fear abduction by the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), a Christian fundamentalist rebel group that uses children as soldiers, porters and sex slaves. The LRA carries out its raids at night, storming into villages from the surrounding bush, killing adults and forcing children to bludgeon their parents before marching them away to camps deep in the bush.[^]
Questionable whether they can be called Christian. And I say that not because I think their actions are "unchristian-like" (in the Old Testament there are plenty of stories of God directing the Jews to wipe out entire non-Jewish cities - killing everyone inside), but because they seem to have a cult-like structure and base things around the one leader's interpretations: It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself a spirit medium, and apparently wishes to establish a state based on his unique interpretation of Biblical millenarianism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army[^] They do seem to be based off of the Bible (in the sense that many cults are). However, they don't seem to like regular Christians very much: "in June 2003 the leader of the LRA, Joseph Kony, told his fighters to destroy Catholic missions, kill priests and missionaries, and beat up nuns." http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lra.htm[^] (Although, Lebanese Christians who fought in the Lebanese Civil war might provide a better example of a Christian terrorist, if that's what you're looking for. Things got really nasty in Lebanon, with all sides committing terrorism against each other.) ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
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Ryan Binns wrote:
If you read the Quoran you'll find that it advocates peace, not war.
I agree, reading these verses, you definately get the idea that muslims are peaceful. :| * Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196 * Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57 * Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50 * Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want to expel you from this land (The Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it." Vol. 4:392 * Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were: "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula." Vol. 5:716
If someone quotes all the "eye for an eye" stuff from the bible does that prove that Christians are violent? Steve