How long do you take to....
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I think that this is a common problem. You can be the best developer in the world, but if you don't know how everything hangs together, then you may as well be a junior. The problem is exacerbated in the case of recent graduates too - they leave education having been shown the "correct" way to do things - but virtually nowhere I've worked are things actually done that way hehe! The best way that I found to get around the problem is to not try to learn too much at once. Focus on the areas that are important to the part you're working on. Document stuff (I find a Wiki useful for this) if it hasn't already been done, and don't worry abut the parts of the sys that you don't understand - eventually in the fullness of time, you'll begin to find that you can see how things work together. Of course this only works well if the Dev Mgr realises that you don't know about the app, and determines what work you should be doing based on this - there's no point telling a new developer to delve into the guts of a system and make modifications! To put things into persprective, I've been at my current company for a little over 4 months, and I still don't feel as though I know enough to tackle anything major in the system, so have been re-colouring and working on look and feel issues. This in itself is working quite nicely, since it's giving me alot of info as to how the UI works. With a little investigation, can then see how hooks into the middle tier, and hence DAL. Guess whay I'm saying is that you may be taking on too much at once by trying to get your head around the entire source base - try breaking it down a little...... "Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
A friend of mine recently moved from University to free enterprise. She always complained about other peoples code while being at university, but now she was shocked. "At university, it was fairly unorganized, but at least the ode was good" :rolleyes:
RichardGrimmer wrote:
I find a Wiki useful for this
I've been thinking about that, too. What Wiki are you using?
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
...become 'productive'? I've been working for 6 months now and I'm still contributing very little to the company... I sometimes feel I could have done soooo much more only if I could understand the product's source code.. But there are more than 2000 files so everytime I try to understand something I drown in the source and end up getting lost :( I am soooo frustrated!! I *want* to learn but I think my approach is totally wrong!! Any suggestions? Thanx!! [EDIT] Thanks for all the replies guys. I am really thankful to this community. I have learnt some invaluable lessons from CP. I have a new perspective now and I think I know what I need to do. Just got my confidance back... I am not so insecure anymore because I just realised that somebody saw some potenitial in me otherwise they would never have hired me.... Well, you learn swimming only after jumping in the water. Plus I have CP to come to whenever I feel like I'm drowning! :) THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!! [/EDIT] ---------------------------------------------- If you need a hammer get C and shut up. If you need a nail gun get C++ and shut up. If you don't need *those* things (and good design should tell you) then by all means get a factory, factory, factory. --code-frog@codeproject -- modified at 14:02 Sunday 23rd April, 2006
Diagon Alley wrote:
the product's source code.. But there are more than 2000 files
On the other hand, I am interested in what products your company produces? 2000 files per product... :omg:
Maxwell Chen
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A friend of mine recently moved from University to free enterprise. She always complained about other peoples code while being at university, but now she was shocked. "At university, it was fairly unorganized, but at least the ode was good" :rolleyes:
RichardGrimmer wrote:
I find a Wiki useful for this
I've been thinking about that, too. What Wiki are you using?
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighistOpen Wiki is fairly good - simple configuration, and customization, but "network issues", i.e. a moronic Netwok Nazi at my co prevent it being used, so am using MikiWiki....not as good, but does the job "Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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Diagon Alley wrote:
the product's source code.. But there are more than 2000 files
On the other hand, I am interested in what products your company produces? 2000 files per product... :omg:
Maxwell Chen
Maxwell Chen wrote:
2000 files per product
Is pretty average in my experience! "Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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Diagon Alley wrote:
the product's source code.. But there are more than 2000 files
On the other hand, I am interested in what products your company produces? 2000 files per product... :omg:
Maxwell Chen
It's an accounting software but there is so much technology that is built into it that it's overwhelming!! The application was designed to keep the user experience the same so the interface pretty much looks the same from the time of dos!! So this means we have our own versions of messageboxes, edit boxes, buttons... everything is subclassed... U get the picture don't u? ---------------------------------------------- If you need a hammer get C and shut up. If you need a nail gun get C++ and shut up. If you don't need *those* things (and good design should tell you) then by all means get a factory, factory, factory. --code-frog@codeproject
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...become 'productive'? I've been working for 6 months now and I'm still contributing very little to the company... I sometimes feel I could have done soooo much more only if I could understand the product's source code.. But there are more than 2000 files so everytime I try to understand something I drown in the source and end up getting lost :( I am soooo frustrated!! I *want* to learn but I think my approach is totally wrong!! Any suggestions? Thanx!! [EDIT] Thanks for all the replies guys. I am really thankful to this community. I have learnt some invaluable lessons from CP. I have a new perspective now and I think I know what I need to do. Just got my confidance back... I am not so insecure anymore because I just realised that somebody saw some potenitial in me otherwise they would never have hired me.... Well, you learn swimming only after jumping in the water. Plus I have CP to come to whenever I feel like I'm drowning! :) THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!! [/EDIT] ---------------------------------------------- If you need a hammer get C and shut up. If you need a nail gun get C++ and shut up. If you don't need *those* things (and good design should tell you) then by all means get a factory, factory, factory. --code-frog@codeproject -- modified at 14:02 Sunday 23rd April, 2006
...is that I this is my very first job and things are done soooooo different than in college! It's like a whole new world out here!! Well, we have a major release coming up which is already delayed so nobody has the time to train me! Of course everybody is very helpful and they try their best to simplify my tasks and I am assigned only tasks which I feel cpable of doing... I can disturb any senior anytime and they will be glad to help me but I know the pressure they are under so I usually try until I hit a dead end and then ask for help.... The best thing is that they believe in my abilities... But I feel so guilty when I ask *stupid* questions cos once I hear the answers I am like :doh: why didn't I think of this before!! I just want to be more useful that's all!! :sigh: Thanx for all the replies!! It really helped me see a new perspective on things!! ---------------------------------------------- If you need a hammer get C and shut up. If you need a nail gun get C++ and shut up. If you don't need *those* things (and good design should tell you) then by all means get a factory, factory, factory. --code-frog@codeproject
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...become 'productive'? I've been working for 6 months now and I'm still contributing very little to the company... I sometimes feel I could have done soooo much more only if I could understand the product's source code.. But there are more than 2000 files so everytime I try to understand something I drown in the source and end up getting lost :( I am soooo frustrated!! I *want* to learn but I think my approach is totally wrong!! Any suggestions? Thanx!! [EDIT] Thanks for all the replies guys. I am really thankful to this community. I have learnt some invaluable lessons from CP. I have a new perspective now and I think I know what I need to do. Just got my confidance back... I am not so insecure anymore because I just realised that somebody saw some potenitial in me otherwise they would never have hired me.... Well, you learn swimming only after jumping in the water. Plus I have CP to come to whenever I feel like I'm drowning! :) THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!! [/EDIT] ---------------------------------------------- If you need a hammer get C and shut up. If you need a nail gun get C++ and shut up. If you don't need *those* things (and good design should tell you) then by all means get a factory, factory, factory. --code-frog@codeproject -- modified at 14:02 Sunday 23rd April, 2006
What about the documents? Requirements, specifications, architecture, test plans, industry standards etc. ? Look at those before you worry about the code. I work for a semiconductor company and we produce the chips in set top boxes so at the moment going through ISO13818 and the 500+ page data sheet on on of the main chips. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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What about the documents? Requirements, specifications, architecture, test plans, industry standards etc. ? Look at those before you worry about the code. I work for a semiconductor company and we produce the chips in set top boxes so at the moment going through ISO13818 and the 500+ page data sheet on on of the main chips. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote:
What about the documents?
:laugh: "You get that which you tolerate"
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Trollslayer wrote:
What about the documents?
:laugh: "You get that which you tolerate"
Look up "optimism" ;P The tigress is here :-D
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...become 'productive'? I've been working for 6 months now and I'm still contributing very little to the company... I sometimes feel I could have done soooo much more only if I could understand the product's source code.. But there are more than 2000 files so everytime I try to understand something I drown in the source and end up getting lost :( I am soooo frustrated!! I *want* to learn but I think my approach is totally wrong!! Any suggestions? Thanx!! [EDIT] Thanks for all the replies guys. I am really thankful to this community. I have learnt some invaluable lessons from CP. I have a new perspective now and I think I know what I need to do. Just got my confidance back... I am not so insecure anymore because I just realised that somebody saw some potenitial in me otherwise they would never have hired me.... Well, you learn swimming only after jumping in the water. Plus I have CP to come to whenever I feel like I'm drowning! :) THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!! [/EDIT] ---------------------------------------------- If you need a hammer get C and shut up. If you need a nail gun get C++ and shut up. If you don't need *those* things (and good design should tell you) then by all means get a factory, factory, factory. --code-frog@codeproject -- modified at 14:02 Sunday 23rd April, 2006
if you've been working there for 6 months, maybe you are doing something right; or they would have ended your employement.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
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...is that I this is my very first job and things are done soooooo different than in college! It's like a whole new world out here!! Well, we have a major release coming up which is already delayed so nobody has the time to train me! Of course everybody is very helpful and they try their best to simplify my tasks and I am assigned only tasks which I feel cpable of doing... I can disturb any senior anytime and they will be glad to help me but I know the pressure they are under so I usually try until I hit a dead end and then ask for help.... The best thing is that they believe in my abilities... But I feel so guilty when I ask *stupid* questions cos once I hear the answers I am like :doh: why didn't I think of this before!! I just want to be more useful that's all!! :sigh: Thanx for all the replies!! It really helped me see a new perspective on things!! ---------------------------------------------- If you need a hammer get C and shut up. If you need a nail gun get C++ and shut up. If you don't need *those* things (and good design should tell you) then by all means get a factory, factory, factory. --code-frog@codeproject
Diagon Alley wrote:
but I know the pressure they are under so I usually try until I hit a dead end and then ask for help....
This is good up to a certain point. If you spend too much time trying to figure it out yourself when it could have been answered in 5 minutes by one of the senior developers, it is more valueable to them if you ask them the questions.
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I would imagine you're approach is just fine and it's the company you work for that's at fault. The company should: - Educate employees. - Have documentation. - Where possible structure the code such that productive work can be done with only local knowledge. None of these things are easy but it's harder in the long run if they're not done - as you may have discovered. These issues are language independent: If you get these things wrong no new language or runtime can help you. Look on the bright side - If it takes so long for an employee to become productive the company will be reluctant to mistreat them. Steve
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
The company should:
Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't matter if you don't. Yeah, they should, but they rarely do... :sigh: Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't matter if you don't.
V. wrote:
but they rarely do
No they don't - Not anywhere I've worked anyway. They do wonder why it takes 2 weeks to make a "trivial" change only to find the modification introduced serious bugs, however. If development proceeds for too long with this lack of discipline the software development process degrades into a black art: The programmer pokes at the code with a stick until it seems to do something like the right thing without too many new bugs. Steve
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V. wrote:
but they rarely do
No they don't - Not anywhere I've worked anyway. They do wonder why it takes 2 weeks to make a "trivial" change only to find the modification introduced serious bugs, however. If development proceeds for too long with this lack of discipline the software development process degrades into a black art: The programmer pokes at the code with a stick until it seems to do something like the right thing without too many new bugs. Steve
Well, this is my third company, and I have yet to find one which has descent documentation. The first two however, there were people there who could explain a little if I couldn't find something, but know I'm almost always on my own :sigh:. (and trying to do something about it ;P) Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't matter if you don't.
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Well, this is my third company, and I have yet to find one which has descent documentation. The first two however, there were people there who could explain a little if I couldn't find something, but know I'm almost always on my own :sigh:. (and trying to do something about it ;P) Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't matter if you don't.
My experience is no different: this is why I'm convinced it's not the way to do things. Nothing like doing something the "wrong way" for 10+ years to make you appreciate the merits of doing things the "right way". Steve
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I think that this is a common problem. You can be the best developer in the world, but if you don't know how everything hangs together, then you may as well be a junior. The problem is exacerbated in the case of recent graduates too - they leave education having been shown the "correct" way to do things - but virtually nowhere I've worked are things actually done that way hehe! The best way that I found to get around the problem is to not try to learn too much at once. Focus on the areas that are important to the part you're working on. Document stuff (I find a Wiki useful for this) if it hasn't already been done, and don't worry abut the parts of the sys that you don't understand - eventually in the fullness of time, you'll begin to find that you can see how things work together. Of course this only works well if the Dev Mgr realises that you don't know about the app, and determines what work you should be doing based on this - there's no point telling a new developer to delve into the guts of a system and make modifications! To put things into persprective, I've been at my current company for a little over 4 months, and I still don't feel as though I know enough to tackle anything major in the system, so have been re-colouring and working on look and feel issues. This in itself is working quite nicely, since it's giving me alot of info as to how the UI works. With a little investigation, can then see how hooks into the middle tier, and hence DAL. Guess whay I'm saying is that you may be taking on too much at once by trying to get your head around the entire source base - try breaking it down a little...... "Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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...become 'productive'? I've been working for 6 months now and I'm still contributing very little to the company... I sometimes feel I could have done soooo much more only if I could understand the product's source code.. But there are more than 2000 files so everytime I try to understand something I drown in the source and end up getting lost :( I am soooo frustrated!! I *want* to learn but I think my approach is totally wrong!! Any suggestions? Thanx!! [EDIT] Thanks for all the replies guys. I am really thankful to this community. I have learnt some invaluable lessons from CP. I have a new perspective now and I think I know what I need to do. Just got my confidance back... I am not so insecure anymore because I just realised that somebody saw some potenitial in me otherwise they would never have hired me.... Well, you learn swimming only after jumping in the water. Plus I have CP to come to whenever I feel like I'm drowning! :) THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!! [/EDIT] ---------------------------------------------- If you need a hammer get C and shut up. If you need a nail gun get C++ and shut up. If you don't need *those* things (and good design should tell you) then by all means get a factory, factory, factory. --code-frog@codeproject -- modified at 14:02 Sunday 23rd April, 2006
Well, First thing to keep in mind, if it is not commented properly, It's not your fault. Take the time you need to understand whats going on. Sometimes this takes a few hours.... work thru it.. change values and see what happens (if your really stuck)... to months.... I took over for a predessesor who didn't comment anything. He was the sole programmer in a 15 employee firm. There was some stuff that I told mngment it would take me 3 weeks to write as I had to start over... I couldn't get anything out of what I had to start with. If your in a big organization, Don't be afraid to ask a more senior engineer whats going on. I am concluding you can't ask the original programmer ... I think your right, btw, they would'nt have hired you if someone didn't see some potential... It may be that you just inherited a rats nest.... Keep a good outlook...