Embryonic stem cell research
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led mike wrote:
No you didn't asshole. f*** off
The thread was about Lebanon being bombed by Isreal, moron. I said "there" as in "Lebanon". Using your same level of illiteracy, you could assume that I said nobody in the Milky Way is innocent. Retard. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
Take your literacy and shove it up your ass. I already told you to fuck off dick head can't you get the message. You can try to argue all fucking day I posted your quote you never said "Lebanon" eat shit and die.
Farhan Noor Qureshi wrote:
Hizbollah has killed 24 or more isaelis and israelis have killed 200 or more lebanese. Who is winning? I don't know. I know who is loosing. Innocent people.
espeir wrote:
Nobody there is innocent. If they were, they wouldn't be in their current condition.
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espeir wrote:
And adult stem cells can do the same thing (per the same link).
Again, according to the article, one of the advantages of embryonic stem cells is that they are: "Flexible: They have the potential to make any body cell." This is not true of adult stem cells, and is one of the reasons research should proceed on both fronts. The mere fact that the advantages differ at all would seem to indicate as much. Again, you ignore the fact that embryonic stem cell research is supported by a majority of the scientific community, consensus within the biomed field, the American public (by a 2:1 margin), and congressional vote, instead choosing to cite a single researcher interviewed on right-wing radio, couple that with your own biased speculation, and turn it into yet another pointless rant against the left. It's not "the left" that supports it. It's the majority. The majority of scientists, the majority of citizens, and the majority of our elected representatives.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Again, you ignore the fact that embryonic stem cell research is supported by a majority of the scientific community, consensus within the biomed field, the American public (by a 2:1 margin), and congressional vote, instead choosing to cite a single researcher interviewed on right-wing radio, couple that with your own biased speculation, and turn it into yet another pointless rant against the left. It's not "the left" that supports it. It's the majority. The majority of scientists, the majority of citizens, and the majority of our elected representatives.
Well said! "I know nothing... I don't support it... MIT professor... right wing radio... the left... abortion..." What a load of crap!
The bible was written when people were even more stupid than they are today. Can you imagine that? - David Cross
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
though our morals would never allow
That's an important point because while I frame the matter almost exclusively as a moral one, you're trying to frame it as a biological one. So while I want to restrict the destruction of human life in very broad terms, you want to specifically define what constitutes human life. I contend that your approach is not possible because we do not see eachother as biological entities but rather as friend, family, and dirty liberal hippies. I choose a very early definition for the creation of human life because that is the most moral approach. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
The biological functions is by definition broad irrespective if the biological specimen is a human or an antilope. We share so many biological functions, notwithstanding our actual differences. Thinking brain is what separates the human species from all others and that is base meaning of human consciousness. Take for instance neuron doctrine which seems to be strongly supported by science and philosophy. Many scientists and philosophers adhere to the methodological view known as naturalism. According to naturalism, to the extent that we will be able to understand the world, it will be empirical science (and not, say, religion or philosophy) that provides that understanding. Reference http://www.bbsonline.org/documents/a/00/00/05/53/bbs00000553-00/bbs.gold.html[^]
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How do I know where they are coming from if this research takes off? Will they start harvesting clones? I'd rather not pay for that with my tax money.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote:
How do I know where they are coming from if this research takes off? Will they start harvesting clones? I'd rather not pay for that with my tax money.
That's actually a good argument for Federal funding. If all of this is left to private companies, without government oversight you might very well have "clone harvesting".
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Take your literacy and shove it up your ass. I already told you to fuck off dick head can't you get the message. You can try to argue all fucking day I posted your quote you never said "Lebanon" eat shit and die.
Farhan Noor Qureshi wrote:
Hizbollah has killed 24 or more isaelis and israelis have killed 200 or more lebanese. Who is winning? I don't know. I know who is loosing. Innocent people.
espeir wrote:
Nobody there is innocent. If they were, they wouldn't be in their current condition.
It was in a thread about Lebanon, retard. If it were a thread about Costa Rica, would you say I was talking about the middle east? And if you want me to f*** off, stop responding to me. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
That's about what I expected.
I'm just applying your view of our government. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
I'm just applying your view of our government.
Perhaps I have been unclear, at times, in articulating my views; but I think, at least in part, your lack of willingness to even academically entertain thoughts that might conflict with your preconceptions severely limits your understanding of others. Mill articulates it well. Read "On Liberty". Try to understand what he meant by "tyranny of the majority", wrap your head around the "harm principle". Then you can disagree all you want, but at least you might actually understand my position, and that of other liberals.
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Again, you ignore the fact that embryonic stem cell research is supported by a majority of the scientific community, consensus within the biomed field, the American public (by a 2:1 margin), and congressional vote, instead choosing to cite a single researcher interviewed on right-wing radio, couple that with your own biased speculation, and turn it into yet another pointless rant against the left. It's not "the left" that supports it. It's the majority. The majority of scientists, the majority of citizens, and the majority of our elected representatives.
Well said! "I know nothing... I don't support it... MIT professor... right wing radio... the left... abortion..." What a load of crap!
The bible was written when people were even more stupid than they are today. Can you imagine that? - David Cross
You eagerly support embryonic stem cell research and you know nothing about it. Why? That's my point. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Farhan Noor Qureshi wrote:
Hizbollah has killed 24 or more isaelis and israelis have killed 200 or more lebanese. Who is winning? I don't know. I know who is loosing. Innocent people.
espeir wrote:
Nobody there is innocent. If they were, they wouldn't be in their current condition.
READ THIS ... fuck off asshole
led mike wrote:
Hizbollah
led mike wrote:
lebanese
Moron. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
though our morals would never allow
That's an important point because while I frame the matter almost exclusively as a moral one, you're trying to frame it as a biological one. So while I want to restrict the destruction of human life in very broad terms, you want to specifically define what constitutes human life. I contend that your approach is not possible because we do not see eachother as biological entities but rather as friend, family, and dirty liberal hippies. I choose a very early definition for the creation of human life because that is the most moral approach. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Richard Stringer wrote:
It has the POTENTIAL of becoming a human.
How do you explain the current crop of world leaders then, or even Link2006?
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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espeir wrote:
I'm just applying your view of our government.
Perhaps I have been unclear, at times, in articulating my views; but I think, at least in part, your lack of willingness to even academically entertain thoughts that might conflict with your preconceptions severely limits your understanding of others. Mill articulates it well. Read "On Liberty". Try to understand what he meant by "tyranny of the majority", wrap your head around the "harm principle". Then you can disagree all you want, but at least you might actually understand my position, and that of other liberals.
I already understand your position and, as I said elsewhere, it has been discredited by history. Your numerous examples of the tyranny of the majority include such travesties as the outlawing of drinking on Sunday (but apparently you're fine with dry counties). The left's argument is a farce and is the same one used by every single dictator who has usurped their government since the beginning of time...that people need to be protected from themselves. Our Founding Fathers largely dismissed Mill, and instead placed faith in the American people along with certain protections for fundamental political rights. The greatest fear (besides disproportionate representation) with the American democratic experiment during the Continental Congress was that the people would act in their own interests and essentially vote themselves all the money in the treasury (among other things). This has not happened. The provisions in the constitution that prevent tyranny (little things...like tax-free municipal bonds) have ensured us a bright and stable democracy. If you'll take note, this thread was not about my desire to force federally funded embryonic stem cell research on an unwilling public (as you would demand if you were in my position). I'm perfectly fine with California putting up $3 billion in research money and if Bush had not vetoed it, I would not have claimed tyranny, though I be in the minority. You're changing the subject to something completely unrelated to my initial comments which, as usual, is nonsensical. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Jason Henderson wrote:
How do I know where they are coming from if this research takes off? Will they start harvesting clones? I'd rather not pay for that with my tax money.
That's actually a good argument for Federal funding. If all of this is left to private companies, without government oversight you might very well have "clone harvesting".
Private funding does not imply the lack of laws. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Private funding does not imply the lack of laws. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Jason Henderson wrote:
How do I know where they are coming from if this research takes off? Will they start harvesting clones? I'd rather not pay for that with my tax money.
That's actually a good argument for Federal funding. If all of this is left to private companies, without government oversight you might very well have "clone harvesting".
Funding by Government is fundamental. It is the kickstart that Universities and private companies crave for. But the most important act a government can take is to legally define the parameters within which research is permitted. Providing such parameters are monitored by an executive agency of government then "clone harvesting" should not occur. Unfortunately, there are some governments of this world whose moral standing is below that expected by civilized governments such as USA/UK and guard against such by relevant actions.
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espeir wrote:
Private funding does not imply the lack of laws.
No, it doesn't imply a lack of laws, there simply is a lack of laws governing what can and cannot be done.
I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of laws governing that. Cloning humans, for example, is illegal in the US. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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espeir wrote:
Personally, I oppose it because I find it absolutely immoral and a bit sci-fi bizarre to kill one person
The embryo is extracted when it's 2-3 weeks old, correct? Would a 3 week embryo be alive? I think it'd just be like a body part - even the brain may not have formed yet! Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Would a 3 week embryo be alive?
Well, on this hinges the entire abortion debate. It all depends on your definition of alive. It's plainly not a body part, it's a seperate entity, which has the potential to become a human being. At what point it can be defined as human is a sticky question that we've created by shoving stuff up there to get rid of it. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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I thought that I did. :confused: "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Stan Shannon wrote:
And people get killed every day in car wrecks also, so why not just arbitrarily kill adult humans?
huh? WTF are talking about? You're comparing things that aren't comparable, Mr. Strawman.
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
You're saying that embyros die every day. Stan is saying that if this sort of research yields results, we will be *creating* embryos to kill them. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
But no one is harvesting embryos from unwilling women.
I never said they were.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
If my wife lost the embryo for medical reasons, I would rather see it used to further medical research and potentially have some benefit to mankind than just be disposed of as medical waste.
That's two different things now isn't it? That's if you lost it anyway. If you didn't loose it already, I bet you wouldn't give it up. [edit] Which would only further prove they are something of value. [/edit] Jeremy Falcon
No one is arguing their value. My point is that if an embryo -- a blastocyst, actually -- is to be discarded anyway, it would be better used to further the cause of medicine than to further the volume of medical waste. For the record, actual trumps potential in my book. I would certainly not trade the life of a loved one for a five-day-old, questionably viable cell grouping.
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I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of laws governing that. Cloning humans, for example, is illegal in the US. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
Here is a link dated June 27, 2005 that says there is no Federal law banning cloning. It says some states have banned it. While still looking I have found no Federal law on the topic. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/medtech/0,67972-0.html[^]
