Embryonic stem cell research
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Private funding does not imply the lack of laws. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Jason Henderson wrote:
How do I know where they are coming from if this research takes off? Will they start harvesting clones? I'd rather not pay for that with my tax money.
That's actually a good argument for Federal funding. If all of this is left to private companies, without government oversight you might very well have "clone harvesting".
Funding by Government is fundamental. It is the kickstart that Universities and private companies crave for. But the most important act a government can take is to legally define the parameters within which research is permitted. Providing such parameters are monitored by an executive agency of government then "clone harvesting" should not occur. Unfortunately, there are some governments of this world whose moral standing is below that expected by civilized governments such as USA/UK and guard against such by relevant actions.
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espeir wrote:
Private funding does not imply the lack of laws.
No, it doesn't imply a lack of laws, there simply is a lack of laws governing what can and cannot be done.
I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of laws governing that. Cloning humans, for example, is illegal in the US. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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espeir wrote:
Personally, I oppose it because I find it absolutely immoral and a bit sci-fi bizarre to kill one person
The embryo is extracted when it's 2-3 weeks old, correct? Would a 3 week embryo be alive? I think it'd just be like a body part - even the brain may not have formed yet! Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Would a 3 week embryo be alive?
Well, on this hinges the entire abortion debate. It all depends on your definition of alive. It's plainly not a body part, it's a seperate entity, which has the potential to become a human being. At what point it can be defined as human is a sticky question that we've created by shoving stuff up there to get rid of it. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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I thought that I did. :confused: "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Stan Shannon wrote:
And people get killed every day in car wrecks also, so why not just arbitrarily kill adult humans?
huh? WTF are talking about? You're comparing things that aren't comparable, Mr. Strawman.
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
You're saying that embyros die every day. Stan is saying that if this sort of research yields results, we will be *creating* embryos to kill them. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
But no one is harvesting embryos from unwilling women.
I never said they were.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
If my wife lost the embryo for medical reasons, I would rather see it used to further medical research and potentially have some benefit to mankind than just be disposed of as medical waste.
That's two different things now isn't it? That's if you lost it anyway. If you didn't loose it already, I bet you wouldn't give it up. [edit] Which would only further prove they are something of value. [/edit] Jeremy Falcon
No one is arguing their value. My point is that if an embryo -- a blastocyst, actually -- is to be discarded anyway, it would be better used to further the cause of medicine than to further the volume of medical waste. For the record, actual trumps potential in my book. I would certainly not trade the life of a loved one for a five-day-old, questionably viable cell grouping.
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I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of laws governing that. Cloning humans, for example, is illegal in the US. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
Here is a link dated June 27, 2005 that says there is no Federal law banning cloning. It says some states have banned it. While still looking I have found no Federal law on the topic. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/medtech/0,67972-0.html[^]
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Here is a link dated June 27, 2005 that says there is no Federal law banning cloning. It says some states have banned it. While still looking I have found no Federal law on the topic. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/medtech/0,67972-0.html[^]
I'm not sure if it passed or not but I thought this (or something similar) went through: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:s.876:[^] "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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I'm not sure if it passed or not but I thought this (or something similar) went through: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:s.876:[^] "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Jason Henderson wrote:
How do I know where they are coming from if this research takes off? Will they start harvesting clones? I'd rather not pay for that with my tax money.
That's actually a good argument for Federal funding. If all of this is left to private companies, without government oversight you might very well have "clone harvesting".
You have a point, but I don't trust the government either.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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I already understand your position and, as I said elsewhere, it has been discredited by history. Your numerous examples of the tyranny of the majority include such travesties as the outlawing of drinking on Sunday (but apparently you're fine with dry counties). The left's argument is a farce and is the same one used by every single dictator who has usurped their government since the beginning of time...that people need to be protected from themselves. Our Founding Fathers largely dismissed Mill, and instead placed faith in the American people along with certain protections for fundamental political rights. The greatest fear (besides disproportionate representation) with the American democratic experiment during the Continental Congress was that the people would act in their own interests and essentially vote themselves all the money in the treasury (among other things). This has not happened. The provisions in the constitution that prevent tyranny (little things...like tax-free municipal bonds) have ensured us a bright and stable democracy. If you'll take note, this thread was not about my desire to force federally funded embryonic stem cell research on an unwilling public (as you would demand if you were in my position). I'm perfectly fine with California putting up $3 billion in research money and if Bush had not vetoed it, I would not have claimed tyranny, though I be in the minority. You're changing the subject to something completely unrelated to my initial comments which, as usual, is nonsensical. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
I already understand your position and, as I said elsewhere, it has been discredited by history. Your numerous examples of the tyranny of the majority include such travesties as the outlawing of drinking on Sunday (but apparently you're fine with dry counties). The left's argument is a farce and is the same one used by every single dictator who has usurped their government since the beginning of time...that people need to be protected from themselves.
Given your obvious misunderstanding of my position, I've owned up to the possibility that I didn't articulate it well, and gave you an avenue of clarification. You have consistently refused, instead choosing to selectively quote isolated examples, out of context, extrapolating from them incorrectly, claiming that this supports your point. It doesn't. People don't need to be protected from themselves. Individual liberty needs to be protected from governmental control. Since you refuse to read, allow me to furnish a quote from Chapter One of On Liberty. It has become known as the "harm principle", and is fundamental to both true liberalism and libertarianism today: "The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."
espeir wrote:
Our Founding Fathers largely dismissed Mill
Must have been an interestingly pre-emptive dismissal, considering Mill wasn't born until 1803, and wrote "On Liberty" in 1859. For the record, Jefferson died in 1826, and Washington in 1799.
espeir wrote:
If you'll take note, this thread was not about my desire to force federally funded embryonic stem cell research on an un
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No one is arguing their value. My point is that if an embryo -- a blastocyst, actually -- is to be discarded anyway, it would be better used to further the cause of medicine than to further the volume of medical waste. For the record, actual trumps potential in my book. I would certainly not trade the life of a loved one for a five-day-old, questionably viable cell grouping.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
a blastocyst, actually
You don't know much about the process. It's an embryo 2 weeks after ovulation. Half the time of the 30 day mark I was talking about.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
is to be discarded anyway
You can't prove every last embryo used was going to be discarded anyway. Thus, it's impossible for this to be a valid point.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I would certainly not trade the life of a loved one for a five-day-old, questionably viable cell grouping.
An embryo is older than five days. Keep your facts straight. And before you continue on showing you don't know much about the process I suggest you read on it a little bit. Jeremy Falcon
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How do I know where they are coming from if this research takes off? Will they start harvesting clones? I'd rather not pay for that with my tax money.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote:
How do I know where they are coming from if this research takes off? Will they start harvesting clones?
You can't be morally opposed to a possibility. It's possible I could snap tomorrow and end up in a clock tower with a high powered rifle but I doubt anyone would be morally opposed to me living my life simply due to the possibility. "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." - Martin Mull
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
a blastocyst, actually
You don't know much about the process. It's an embryo 2 weeks after ovulation. Half the time of the 30 day mark I was talking about.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
is to be discarded anyway
You can't prove every last embryo used was going to be discarded anyway. Thus, it's impossible for this to be a valid point.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I would certainly not trade the life of a loved one for a five-day-old, questionably viable cell grouping.
An embryo is older than five days. Keep your facts straight. And before you continue on showing you don't know much about the process I suggest you read on it a little bit. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You don't know much about the process. It's an embryo 2 weeks after ovulation. Half the time of the 30 day mark I was talking about.
From the National Institute of Health:
The embryos from which human embryonic stem cells are derived are typically four or five days old and are a hollow microscopic ball of cells called the blastocyst.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You can't prove every last embryo used was going to be discarded anyway. Thus, it's impossible for this to be a valid point.
Again, the NIH says:
Embryonic stem cells, as their name suggests, are derived from embryos. Specifically, embryonic stem cells are derived from embryos that develop from eggs that have been fertilized in vitro—in an in vitro fertilization clinic—and then donated for research purposes with informed consent of the donors. They are not derived from eggs fertilized in a woman's body.
Note the words "informed consent". The donors are, in fact, "discarding" the embryos, albeit for good cause.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
An embryo is older than five days. Keep your facts straight. And before you continue on showing you don't know much about the process I suggest you read on it a little bit.
"Keep your facts straight"? I feel like I'm still talking to espeir. Anyway, I refer you to the first quote. The page I visited is here[^]. There's also a link at the bottom of the page that will allow you to contact the National Institute of Health and help them get their facts straight.
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espeir wrote:
I already understand your position and, as I said elsewhere, it has been discredited by history. Your numerous examples of the tyranny of the majority include such travesties as the outlawing of drinking on Sunday (but apparently you're fine with dry counties). The left's argument is a farce and is the same one used by every single dictator who has usurped their government since the beginning of time...that people need to be protected from themselves.
Given your obvious misunderstanding of my position, I've owned up to the possibility that I didn't articulate it well, and gave you an avenue of clarification. You have consistently refused, instead choosing to selectively quote isolated examples, out of context, extrapolating from them incorrectly, claiming that this supports your point. It doesn't. People don't need to be protected from themselves. Individual liberty needs to be protected from governmental control. Since you refuse to read, allow me to furnish a quote from Chapter One of On Liberty. It has become known as the "harm principle", and is fundamental to both true liberalism and libertarianism today: "The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."
espeir wrote:
Our Founding Fathers largely dismissed Mill
Must have been an interestingly pre-emptive dismissal, considering Mill wasn't born until 1803, and wrote "On Liberty" in 1859. For the record, Jefferson died in 1826, and Washington in 1799.
espeir wrote:
If you'll take note, this thread was not about my desire to force federally funded embryonic stem cell research on an un
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Given your obvious misunderstanding of my position, I've owned up to the possibility that I didn't articulate it well, and gave you an avenue of clarification. You have consistently refused, instead choosing to selectively quote isolated examples, out of context, extrapolating from them incorrectly, claiming that this supports your point. It doesn't. People don't need to be protected from themselves. Individual liberty needs to be protected from governmental control. Since you refuse to read, allow me to furnish a quote from Chapter One of On Liberty. It has become known as the "harm principle", and is fundamental to both true liberalism and libertarianism today: "The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."
Then explain where I am failing to understand your position, because I have interpreted it exactly as expressed by Mill. You believe in a government contrary to our own wherein the people are stripped of their powers to legislate by a government that is ironically overbearing in this capability. You are also hypocritical in that you state that people should be prevented from displaying the 10 commandments on public property, even though this directly contradicts the "harm principle". So you are, in fact, attempting to present a libertarian viewpoint (insomuch as legislative powers are stripped from the people) while simultaneously advocating restictive powers granted only to yourself. The end result is a totalitarian regime headed by none other than yourself. How convenient. Libertarianism (especially your corrupted version) is compatible with human only until someone decides to make his front lawn a garbage dump.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You don't know much about the process. It's an embryo 2 weeks after ovulation. Half the time of the 30 day mark I was talking about.
From the National Institute of Health:
The embryos from which human embryonic stem cells are derived are typically four or five days old and are a hollow microscopic ball of cells called the blastocyst.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You can't prove every last embryo used was going to be discarded anyway. Thus, it's impossible for this to be a valid point.
Again, the NIH says:
Embryonic stem cells, as their name suggests, are derived from embryos. Specifically, embryonic stem cells are derived from embryos that develop from eggs that have been fertilized in vitro—in an in vitro fertilization clinic—and then donated for research purposes with informed consent of the donors. They are not derived from eggs fertilized in a woman's body.
Note the words "informed consent". The donors are, in fact, "discarding" the embryos, albeit for good cause.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
An embryo is older than five days. Keep your facts straight. And before you continue on showing you don't know much about the process I suggest you read on it a little bit.
"Keep your facts straight"? I feel like I'm still talking to espeir. Anyway, I refer you to the first quote. The page I visited is here[^]. There's also a link at the bottom of the page that will allow you to contact the National Institute of Health and help them get their facts straight.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
are derived from embryos.
Thanks for proving my point. They wait until they become embryos to fuck them over rather than (as you said) cut them up at an earlier stage. Which proves that you are wrong in the fact that they aren't blastocysts when it happens. Which you suggested.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Note the words "informed consent". The donors are, in fact, "discarding" the embryos, albeit for good cause.
Just becuase a website says that you believe that will always be the case? That's naive. But, let's pretend it will be the case. If I have a girlfriend that's ok with me abusing her, does that make it right?
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
"Keep your facts straight"? I feel like I'm still talking to espeir.
So you're full of shit when you talk to him too? :laugh: You keep on talking about blastocysts when they are in fact embryos. Thus I said what I said, and I'll say it again - keep your facts straight. If you cannot comprehend this, then I submit to you, that's the real problem.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
There's also a link at the bottom of the page that will allow you to contact the National Institute of Health and help them get their facts straight.
Why, your link just proved to me you were wrong on the front they are blastocysts. Oh sure, they may harvest them at that point, but they are waiting and nuture them until they are embryos. This is no different than raising cows for slaughter. Anything else you'd like to use to make you look wrong, feel free. Jeremy Falcon
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Given your obvious misunderstanding of my position, I've owned up to the possibility that I didn't articulate it well, and gave you an avenue of clarification. You have consistently refused, instead choosing to selectively quote isolated examples, out of context, extrapolating from them incorrectly, claiming that this supports your point. It doesn't. People don't need to be protected from themselves. Individual liberty needs to be protected from governmental control. Since you refuse to read, allow me to furnish a quote from Chapter One of On Liberty. It has become known as the "harm principle", and is fundamental to both true liberalism and libertarianism today: "The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."
Then explain where I am failing to understand your position, because I have interpreted it exactly as expressed by Mill. You believe in a government contrary to our own wherein the people are stripped of their powers to legislate by a government that is ironically overbearing in this capability. You are also hypocritical in that you state that people should be prevented from displaying the 10 commandments on public property, even though this directly contradicts the "harm principle". So you are, in fact, attempting to present a libertarian viewpoint (insomuch as legislative powers are stripped from the people) while simultaneously advocating restictive powers granted only to yourself. The end result is a totalitarian regime headed by none other than yourself. How convenient. Libertarianism (especially your corrupted version) is compatible with human only until someone decides to make his front lawn a garbage dump.
espeir wrote:
Then explain where I am failing to understand your position, because I have interpreted it exactly as expressed by Mill. You believe in a government contrary to our own wherein the people are stripped of their powers to legislate by a government that is ironically overbearing in this capability.
Looks like you're also failing to understand Mill. Government should keep people from harming each other's person or property. Period. Nothing more. Is that stripping the people of their powers to legislate? Legislate indiscriminately and oppressively, maybe.
espeir wrote:
You are also hypocritical in that you state that people should be prevented from displaying the 10 commandments on public property, even though this directly contradicts the "harm principle".
No hypocrisy at all, just more misunderstanding on your part. A display of the ten commandments on government property -- especially at a courthouse -- is a statement of intent by the government to violate the harm principle. It would indicate that the government considers it to be wrong for me to covet my neighbor's ass, or take the name of the Lord, their God in vain, when neither action harms anyone.
espeir wrote:
Libertarianism (especially your corrupted version) is compatible with human only until someone decides to make his front lawn a garbage dump.
Exactly how does my neighbor making his lawn a garbage dump not harm me? Strict libertarianism is only slightly more practical than Communism; in fact, pretty much any pure system or ideology has flaws that make it impractical and impracticable in the real world, including pure democracy, hence, our representative republic. Those flaws are usually qualities of the people who are subject to the system. That said, the closer we can get to the libertarian ideal while maintaining social order, the better. Hard to do with a complex system, and compromise is necessary along the way, but minimal government -- at all levels -- should be the ideal. As an individual, don't you find it difficult to argue against individual liberty.
espeir wrote:
I'm dumb. I think I reversed him with someone else (thinking he had died in the 1770s). Well I guess that proves my point on his influence over the founding fathers!
You're not dumb. You can be an egotistical
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
are derived from embryos.
Thanks for proving my point. They wait until they become embryos to fuck them over rather than (as you said) cut them up at an earlier stage. Which proves that you are wrong in the fact that they aren't blastocysts when it happens. Which you suggested.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Note the words "informed consent". The donors are, in fact, "discarding" the embryos, albeit for good cause.
Just becuase a website says that you believe that will always be the case? That's naive. But, let's pretend it will be the case. If I have a girlfriend that's ok with me abusing her, does that make it right?
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
"Keep your facts straight"? I feel like I'm still talking to espeir.
So you're full of shit when you talk to him too? :laugh: You keep on talking about blastocysts when they are in fact embryos. Thus I said what I said, and I'll say it again - keep your facts straight. If you cannot comprehend this, then I submit to you, that's the real problem.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
There's also a link at the bottom of the page that will allow you to contact the National Institute of Health and help them get their facts straight.
Why, your link just proved to me you were wrong on the front they are blastocysts. Oh sure, they may harvest them at that point, but they are waiting and nuture them until they are embryos. This is no different than raising cows for slaughter. Anything else you'd like to use to make you look wrong, feel free. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Thanks for proving my point. They wait until they become embryos to f*** them over rather than (as you said) cut them up at an earlier stage. Which proves that you are wrong in the fact that they aren't blastocysts when it happens. Which you suggested.
They removed the inner cell mass from the embryo at four to five days, and culture those cells. At that point, they are growing stem cells, not an embryo.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Just becuase a website says that you believe that will always be the case? That's naive. But, let's pretend it will be the case. If I have a girlfriend that's ok with me abusing her, does that make it right?
Abuse? You're an idiot. No nervous system, questionable viability, not a person yet, there is no abuse. If, as I'm guessing is the case, you're mother smoked crack while she was carrying you, that would be abuse. A five-day-old lump of cells? Not to me.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You keep on talking about blastocysts when they are in fact embryos. Thus I said what I said, and I'll say it again - keep your facts straight. If you cannot comprehend this, then I submit to you, that's the real problem.
You seem to have exactly the same reading comprehension difficulties that he does. Go back and read the page again.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Why, your link just proved to me you were wrong on the front they are blastocysts. Oh sure, they may harvest them at that point, but they are waiting and nuture them until they are embryos. This is no different than raising cows for slaughter.
I rest my case. You are as big an idiot as e. Maybe bigger. He's at least an articulate and sometimes entertaining douchebag, in a dancing monkey kind of way. You're just wrong.
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Tim Craig wrote:
That he would agree to be part of such a forum makes him highly suspect.
Why? Are scientists supposed to discriminate against conservatives now? "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
Right wing talk radio isn't exactly known to be a hot forum for the intellectual discussion of new scientific ideas. If fact, I'd go so far as to say it was totally devoid of any intellectual content. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.