Embryonic stem cell research
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No. Many conservative Republicans (including senate majority leader Bill Frist) voted in favor of this bill and I disagree with those conservatives. My point was that it seems to me that the left has very eagerly pushed for embryonic stem cell research without any real understanding of its potential benefits. I believe that the reason for this was purely political and done to alter the perception of abortion from life-destroying to life-supporting because the rhetoric points in that direction. I'm testing that theory here, but naturally this thread has diverged. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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dennisd45 wrote:
I have not ignored your point. I have addressed it several times, in fact. Adult and fetal stems cells are not the same and each has it areas where it could be valuable.
Not according to the MIT guy. Again, I'll take his opinion over yours.
dennisd45 wrote:
I didn't ignore it. It simply doesn't matter.
Yes it does, as that's the basis of neutrality.
dennisd45 wrote:
Pretty pointless, it it were true. The public is already use to it. In virto fertilization leads to the destruction of countless fetuses. But, of course, everything you hypothisize is based on a completely invalid assumption. There is no monolithic left.
As pointless as pushing for federally funded embryonic stem cell research? Not quite.
dennisd45 wrote:
Completely false. Do some research on the web. Review Vincents link. Review my link.
List some actual medical trials, not tricks. There have been 65 with adult stem cells. There have been none with embryonic stem cells. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
Not according to the MIT guy. Again, I'll take his opinion over yours.
It's not my opinion. I provided you with a link to support what I said.
espeir wrote:
Yes it does, as that's the basis of neutrality.
Simply because he is not morally opposed to the research does not make everything he says on the subject correct.
espeir wrote:
As pointless as pushing for federally funded embryonic stem cell research? Not quite.
You may be right. As long as that dead head bush is in the White House.
espeir wrote:
List some actual medical trials, not tricks. There have been 65 with adult stem cells. There have been none with embryonic stem cells.
What tricks? You said that fetal stem cell research had produced no results. The links previously provided show there are results. Now you say you need clinical trials. Federal funding has been banned for years. How do you expect to get the research to the point of human clinical trials without research and money? There seems to be a core assumption in your argument that there is no difference between adult and fetal stem cells. From the very beginning of my postings I have made it clear that there are many significant differences. And I have provided you with a link to one site that addresses those differences. It is interesting that you have developed such strong opinions on the topic since you don't know anything about it outside of what you heard some guy say on a right wing talk show.
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espeir wrote:
However, one is bacteria and the other is a person.
Oh, so a 5 day old embryonic stem cell is a person now? Please enlighten me as to how that is possible. Maybe start with a definition of "person" and we can work from there.
espeir wrote:
Welcome to Introduction to Differential Equations. What's our lesson for tomorrow?
Nonlinear stochastic partial differential equations with solutions lacking the Markov property. To make it interesting, we will further assume that possible candidate solutions are only semi-continuous martingales on the Borel sigma algebra. You can start with the basics. I'm listening.
thealj wrote:
Oh, so a 5 day old embryonic stem cell is a person now? Please enlighten me as to how that is possible. Maybe start with a definition of "person" and we can work from there.
Well the next I say could be misunderstood. It shall be no personal attack I just gathered some thoughts, that came up to my mind. What is a person? Ok, let's say an embryo is no person (I think this is right) but it's a human being of some kind, isn't it? When it's not a human beeing, what is a human beeing then? When it's born? Or after 90 days? So a 89 day old embryo is not and some hours later it is? That reminds me on some earlier ages: the white man said "black" or "coloured" people weren't human beings. Then the Nazis said that Jews weren't human beings. They invented Gen Technology. Yes it were the Nazis - they wanted a tool to differ between the higher "Ariern" and the "lower" forms of Life... Well. I can understand that some people aren't agaist stem cell research and there are good reasons for it, even I'm not sure that there aren't better reasons against. But when someone says this is no human being but that is, then we come to point the mankind some time earlier already was: definition of higher valued human life and lower valued human life. I eat animals (yes, I do) but anyhow I think a animal lives. I won't torture any animal, because I respect them, that doesn't mean I won't kill and eat them. I can accept abortion, but I don't have to like it and I still think that it's like killing. So, irrelevant if someone is pro or contry for stem cells or - something totally different - abortion, he should consider well, if he want to say that somesort of life isn't real or from a lower value. Regards, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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ihoecken wrote:
You mismatch who wrotes what! I didn't wrote the things you to foist on me.
Yes, okay. I'm sorry. I have spent too much time in the Soapbox and automatically get defensive by default. :doh:
thealj wrote:
Yes, okay. I'm sorry. I have spent too much time in the Soapbox and automatically get defensive by default.
Thank you, for telling that. :) Regards, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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thealj wrote:
Oh, so a 5 day old embryonic stem cell is a person now? Please enlighten me as to how that is possible. Maybe start with a definition of "person" and we can work from there.
Well the next I say could be misunderstood. It shall be no personal attack I just gathered some thoughts, that came up to my mind. What is a person? Ok, let's say an embryo is no person (I think this is right) but it's a human being of some kind, isn't it? When it's not a human beeing, what is a human beeing then? When it's born? Or after 90 days? So a 89 day old embryo is not and some hours later it is? That reminds me on some earlier ages: the white man said "black" or "coloured" people weren't human beings. Then the Nazis said that Jews weren't human beings. They invented Gen Technology. Yes it were the Nazis - they wanted a tool to differ between the higher "Ariern" and the "lower" forms of Life... Well. I can understand that some people aren't agaist stem cell research and there are good reasons for it, even I'm not sure that there aren't better reasons against. But when someone says this is no human being but that is, then we come to point the mankind some time earlier already was: definition of higher valued human life and lower valued human life. I eat animals (yes, I do) but anyhow I think a animal lives. I won't torture any animal, because I respect them, that doesn't mean I won't kill and eat them. I can accept abortion, but I don't have to like it and I still think that it's like killing. So, irrelevant if someone is pro or contry for stem cells or - something totally different - abortion, he should consider well, if he want to say that somesort of life isn't real or from a lower value. Regards, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
I find myself agreeing with you. The answer isn't simply black and white and the arguments run both ways...
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espeir wrote:
Not according to the MIT guy. Again, I'll take his opinion over yours.
It's not my opinion. I provided you with a link to support what I said.
espeir wrote:
Yes it does, as that's the basis of neutrality.
Simply because he is not morally opposed to the research does not make everything he says on the subject correct.
espeir wrote:
As pointless as pushing for federally funded embryonic stem cell research? Not quite.
You may be right. As long as that dead head bush is in the White House.
espeir wrote:
List some actual medical trials, not tricks. There have been 65 with adult stem cells. There have been none with embryonic stem cells.
What tricks? You said that fetal stem cell research had produced no results. The links previously provided show there are results. Now you say you need clinical trials. Federal funding has been banned for years. How do you expect to get the research to the point of human clinical trials without research and money? There seems to be a core assumption in your argument that there is no difference between adult and fetal stem cells. From the very beginning of my postings I have made it clear that there are many significant differences. And I have provided you with a link to one site that addresses those differences. It is interesting that you have developed such strong opinions on the topic since you don't know anything about it outside of what you heard some guy say on a right wing talk show.
dennisd45 wrote:
It's not my opinion. I provided you with a link to support what I said.
The only advantage over adult stem cells listed in your link related to abundance. Disadvantages include minor things like inevitable tumors and automatic rejection by adults.
dennisd45 wrote:
Simply because he is not morally opposed to the research does not make everything he says on the subject correct.
No, but it means that he is not motivated by anything other than his research. You, however, have conducted no research, are no a professor at MIT and are motivated by only politics.
dennisd45 wrote:
What tricks? You said that fetal stem cell research had produced no results. The links previously provided show there are results. Now you say you need clinical trials. Federal funding has been banned for years. How do you expect to get the research to the point of human clinical trials without research and money? There seems to be a core assumption in your argument that there is no difference between adult and fetal stem cells. From the very beginning of my postings I have made it clear that there are many significant differences. And I have provided you with a link to one site that addresses those differences.
I should correct myself and say no results specifically related to humans. Federal funding has not been banned at all...just the number of stem cell lines that were permitted for use. There are differences between adult and embryonic stem cells. Per your own link, adult stem cells are far more useful (just less abundant).
dennisd45 wrote:
It is interesting that you have developed such strong opinions on the topic since you don't know anything about it outside of what you heard some guy say on a right wing talk show.
My opinion is morally based and irrespective of the impartial professor's opinion. What I'm pointing out is my curiosity over the left's eagerness for this research. I have a reason to oppose it, but the left really has no reason for such eager endorsement. I'm proposing a theory to explain this eagerness. Nothing more. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Let me begin by saying that I know nothing technical whatsoever about this subject. Personally, I oppose it because I find it absolutely immoral and a bit sci-fi bizarre to kill one person to medically benefit another (it's like soul-sucking or something). But there is something I else that I find quite politically bizarre, and that's the left's unwavering support for federal tax dollars (which basically only benefit big pharmaceutical businesses) for something that is really very unproven. This morning I was stuck in traffic for an hour and wound up listening to a conservative radio show (not Rush Limbaugh...and believe it or not I don't typically listen to right-wing radio) and they had called an MIT professor of molecular biology to discuss the topic. He said that he was once enthusiastic about embryonic stem cell research, but had changed his position a few years ago because embryonic stem cells always result in tumors when applied to adults. Apparently adult stem cell research has the same benefits without this problem. More interestingly, he said that numerous successful treatments have come from adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells have to date yielded no results. Pharmaceutical companies are also investing heavily in adult stem cell research, but not embryonic stem cell research. This professor's assertion (which may be in dispute...as I'm no expert I can't say) supports a suspicion that I've held for some time. I think the left has irrationally attached itself to embryonic stem cell research not because of the potential but because of its association to abortion. In other words, by attaching the concept of "life" to abortion, it confuses the issue to where abortion is no longer merely justified by "personal choice", but implies that those who oppose abortion are actually anti-life (thereby reversing the political position on the issue). In other words, the current "pro-choice" crowd would become the "pro-life" crowd and the current "pro-life" crowd would become the "pro-disease" crowd. That's my crazy theory for the day. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
I am all for adult stem cell research. I am against embryonic stem cell research because it commoditizes human life. Sorta like apples and oranges are commodities. Potential sentient life, which is what a human embryo is, is far to precious to make it a commodity. Could you really imagine that women would become "factories" for producing embryos for medical procedures? Or have embryos grown in a "petrie" dish for the same purpose? Where would they get the sperm for such things? Some wacko spanking his meat in one of those "clinics", no doubt. And if it's true that there is no proven medical benefit, then what's the point? It's all a bit disgusting to me.
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
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Read the advantages and disadvantages of both. Then see why embryonic stem cell research is inferior. That link agrees with me...not you. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
Read the advantages and disadvantages of both. Then see why embryonic stem cell research is inferior. That link agrees with me...not you.
That link "agrees" with neither side. It lists advantages and disadvantages of both. However, toward the end of the article (guess you didn't get that far) it says, "The potential of embryonic stem cells to provide other differentiated cell types needs to be investigated. The production of cardiac muscle cells, which have thus far been evasive, would hold tremendous promise for the number one killer: heart disease." I get the impression that, while you are obviously trying to maintain the appearance of analytical objectivity and rational thought, every comment on this issue brings you one step closer to breaking into a rousing chorus of "Every Sperm is Sacred".
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dennisd45 wrote:
There has not been extensive use of fetal stem cells in human therapy
Why is that? And why has industry apparently rejected investment in fetal stem cell research but embraced adult stem cell research?
dennisd45 wrote:
The 'left' is not some monolithic group that follows the orders of some 'leader of the left'.
For the most part they are.
dennisd45 wrote:
Many people support the research because it holds out the promise of therapies or cures to many diseases - parkinsons and diabetes to name two.
But that's my point. Again, this is just from a single MIT professor, but embryonic stem cell research does not hold this promise as was initially believed. But the left continues to embrace it because of its association to fetal destruction. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
dennisd45 wrote: The 'left' is not some monolithic group that follows the orders of some 'leader of the left'. For the most part they are.
So, who would be the Lefties' Grand Poobah? 'til next we type... HAVE FUN!! -- Jesse
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ihoecken wrote:
Yes it's alive.
It may be technically alive, but it's definitely less alive than a 3-month embryo. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
3-month embryo
there's no such thing. By three months, it's progressed to become a fetus.
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
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ihoecken wrote:
When you have no arguements you must post rubbish, he isn't the first in soapbox.
I am still waiting for you to provide me with a definition that distinguishes how a bacteria is different from a 5 day old embryonic stem cell.
thealj wrote:
am still waiting for you to provide me with a definition that distinguishes how a bacteria is different from a 5 day old embryonic stem cell.
Allow me to interject a personal opinion here. A fetus can be proven to be alive by subjective standards. In function at that stage it is no different than any mulicelluar life form with one outstanding difference. It has the POTENTIAL of becoming a human. It is the only object in the universe that does have that property. It is unique and as such should be viewed in perspective of its potential outcome. Richard Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
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espeir wrote:
Read the advantages and disadvantages of both. Then see why embryonic stem cell research is inferior. That link agrees with me...not you.
That link "agrees" with neither side. It lists advantages and disadvantages of both. However, toward the end of the article (guess you didn't get that far) it says, "The potential of embryonic stem cells to provide other differentiated cell types needs to be investigated. The production of cardiac muscle cells, which have thus far been evasive, would hold tremendous promise for the number one killer: heart disease." I get the impression that, while you are obviously trying to maintain the appearance of analytical objectivity and rational thought, every comment on this issue brings you one step closer to breaking into a rousing chorus of "Every Sperm is Sacred".
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
That link "agrees" with neither side. It lists advantages and disadvantages of both. However, toward the end of the article (guess you didn't get that far) it says, "The potential of embryonic stem cells to provide other differentiated cell types needs to be investigated. The production of cardiac muscle cells, which have thus far been evasive, would hold tremendous promise for the number one killer: heart disease."
And adult stem cells can do the same thing (per the same link). Again, if you were literate at all, you would realize that the question I'm asking is why does the left so blindly support embryonic stem cell research as a universal panacea when it's not based in any sort of scientific reality. Adult stem cells have yielded much better results and that article (if you actually do read it) lists far more advantages for adult stem cells over embryonic stem cells. So why the overwhelming support for inferior science? Is the left anti-science in order to support a political position? I have yet to see a reasonable explanation for that position. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Unless it's a virus :) An all encompasing minimum definition of life is tricky. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
A virus is never going to develope into a human being. Thats a pretty encompassing minimum definition. "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
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I know people disagree (as will the research). I was saying that each individual who has given it thought should consider a specific point of development the point at which an egg becomes human. We aren't fully developed until we're in our 20s. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
We aren't fully developed until we're in our 20s
Another issue for debate. Different ages apply depending on the criteria looked at, for instance 1. Sexual maturity 2. Emotional Maturity and so on
espeir wrote:
egg becomes human
After many biological processes from inception, which implies a fertilized egg, the point where it becomes human is where delivery occurs, until then, it is a foetus. And usually a foetus is not a viable proposition for delivery until around 25 weeks into pregnancy, although at that age of gestation, in some countries, abortion is perfectly legal, but that's another issue. I know there are documented cases of live births at earlier gestation but these children have horrendous existences from multiple problems due entirely to under development. Here comes those references I said I would give. 1. [^] 2. [^] 3.[^] In total the references give around 1000 items of research and other documents, mostly open source, but you will be required to register with biomed to read any o
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I am all for adult stem cell research. I am against embryonic stem cell research because it commoditizes human life. Sorta like apples and oranges are commodities. Potential sentient life, which is what a human embryo is, is far to precious to make it a commodity. Could you really imagine that women would become "factories" for producing embryos for medical procedures? Or have embryos grown in a "petrie" dish for the same purpose? Where would they get the sperm for such things? Some wacko spanking his meat in one of those "clinics", no doubt. And if it's true that there is no proven medical benefit, then what's the point? It's all a bit disgusting to me.
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
ahz wrote:
And if it's true that there is no proven medical benefit, then what's the point?
I don't know that there is no medical benfit. But from this one MIT researcher, he claimed that there is no benefit of embryonic stem cells that adult stem cells cannot provide, and adult stem cells are compatible with adults while embryonic stem cells are not. So I don't get the political push for such research. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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thealj wrote:
am still waiting for you to provide me with a definition that distinguishes how a bacteria is different from a 5 day old embryonic stem cell.
Allow me to interject a personal opinion here. A fetus can be proven to be alive by subjective standards. In function at that stage it is no different than any mulicelluar life form with one outstanding difference. It has the POTENTIAL of becoming a human. It is the only object in the universe that does have that property. It is unique and as such should be viewed in perspective of its potential outcome. Richard Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
Indeed. Irrefutable logic. The fertilized human egg is only the first step in an unbroken biological continuum that represents a human life. "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
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A virus is never going to develope into a human being. Thats a pretty encompassing minimum definition. "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
I don't know...Alvaro said that babies in the womb are parasites, much like a virus. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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dennisd45 wrote:
It's not my opinion. I provided you with a link to support what I said.
The only advantage over adult stem cells listed in your link related to abundance. Disadvantages include minor things like inevitable tumors and automatic rejection by adults.
dennisd45 wrote:
Simply because he is not morally opposed to the research does not make everything he says on the subject correct.
No, but it means that he is not motivated by anything other than his research. You, however, have conducted no research, are no a professor at MIT and are motivated by only politics.
dennisd45 wrote:
What tricks? You said that fetal stem cell research had produced no results. The links previously provided show there are results. Now you say you need clinical trials. Federal funding has been banned for years. How do you expect to get the research to the point of human clinical trials without research and money? There seems to be a core assumption in your argument that there is no difference between adult and fetal stem cells. From the very beginning of my postings I have made it clear that there are many significant differences. And I have provided you with a link to one site that addresses those differences.
I should correct myself and say no results specifically related to humans. Federal funding has not been banned at all...just the number of stem cell lines that were permitted for use. There are differences between adult and embryonic stem cells. Per your own link, adult stem cells are far more useful (just less abundant).
dennisd45 wrote:
It is interesting that you have developed such strong opinions on the topic since you don't know anything about it outside of what you heard some guy say on a right wing talk show.
My opinion is morally based and irrespective of the impartial professor's opinion. What I'm pointing out is my curiosity over the left's eagerness for this research. I have a reason to oppose it, but the left really has no reason for such eager endorsement. I'm proposing a theory to explain this eagerness. Nothing more. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
The only advantage over adult stem cells listed in your link related to abundance. Disadvantages include minor things like inevitable tumors and automatic rejection by adults.
Automatic rejection - not stated anywhere. The possibility of rejection is one disadvantage of fetal cells. Inevitable tumors - not stated anywhere. One of the disadvantages of Adult stems cells is possible genetic mutation for disease or otherwise become defective.
espeir wrote:
No, but it means that he is not motivated by anything other than his research. You, however, have conducted no research, are no a professor at MIT and are motivated by only politics.
By your own admission this discussion is political. Again you are descending to attack me personally, rather that what I say. While I have not done medical research, I know a bit more about the topic than what some guy said on a right wing talk show.
espeir wrote:
My opinion is morally based and irrespective of the impartial professor's opinion.
I have not once said anything about your moral stand on this issue.
espeir wrote:
What I'm pointing out is my curiosity over the left's eagerness for this research.
I have tried to point out to you why there are reasons to persue this reseach that have nothing to do with "The Monolithic Left".
espeir wrote:
Per your own link, adult stem cells are far more useful (just less abundant).
A value judgement by you that is not endorsed by anything on the link. It doesn't draw a conclusion on one type or the other being "better".
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ihoecken wrote:
You mismatch who wrotes what! I didn't wrote the things you to foist on me.
Yes, okay. I'm sorry. I have spent too much time in the Soapbox and automatically get defensive by default. :doh:
You can get defensive with me then. It is fucking stupid to compare a bacteria to a human fetus at any stage of developement simply because the bacteria isn't a human fetus and will never become one regardless of how long you wait for it to. They are two completely different and distinct entities. "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
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Read the advantages and disadvantages of both. Then see why embryonic stem cell research is inferior. That link agrees with me...not you. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
