Crime is Bush's fault
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thealj wrote:
1. Socio-economic inequality (ie: income inequality) 2. Population density 3. breakdown of the traditional family.
I think I would agree with that in the order specified.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
I think I would agree with that in the order specified.
Yes, there's all sorts of crazy theories about this causes crime, that causes crime, etc...ignoring the fringe cases (like serial killers, psychotics, etc...) the bulk of crime occurs for those 3 reasons. It's really undeniable. I don't even know why there is a debate anymore.
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I stated: 'A criminal is a person who will take a higher than average risk to get what he wants.' You satated: 'The fact that risk and reward must be weighted does not make an act criminal' Defining criminal does not define crime.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
You didn't define "crime". You defined "criminal" as "a person who will take a higher than average risk to get what he wants". Now that might be a trait shared by criminals, but that's certainly not the definition of a criminal. If it were, all smokers and skydivers would be criminals.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
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espeir wrote:
I think I would agree with that in the order specified.
Yes, there's all sorts of crazy theories about this causes crime, that causes crime, etc...ignoring the fringe cases (like serial killers, psychotics, etc...) the bulk of crime occurs for those 3 reasons. It's really undeniable. I don't even know why there is a debate anymore.
Because drama makes for good politics?
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
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A backwards ufans.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
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espeir wrote:
You're the one who's concerned about a police state.
What part of "it's not a solution I agree with" didn't you understand?
espeir wrote:
Democrats want to make it a political issue
espeir wrote:
Once Republicans took control of the government, crime declined to current levels.
:laugh: I imagine when someone asks you for the time, you tell them instead how the tyrannical oligarchy at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures is part of a leftist plot to subvert time and assume control of the world's clocks, and only by putting it to a community vote is there hope for true Jeffersonian time to prevail.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I imagine when someone asks you for the time, you tell them instead how the tyrannical oligarchy at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures is part of a leftist plot to subvert time and assume control of the world's clocks, and only by putting it to a community vote is there hope for true Jeffersonian time to prevail.
What?! Hey! who? how?...who told you this darkest of secrets? Nobody was supposed to say anything! At least you didn't tie it in with daylight savings! :doh: Aw Crap! Now I've done it, we've been exposed!!! :suss:
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You didn't define "crime". You defined "criminal" as "a person who will take a higher than average risk to get what he wants". Now that might be a trait shared by criminals, but that's certainly not the definition of a criminal. If it were, all smokers and skydivers would be criminals.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
You didn't define "crime". You defined "criminal"
I know.
espeir wrote:
Now that might be a trait shared by criminals, but that's certainly not the definition of a criminal. If it were, all smokers and skydivers would be criminals.
I know. A tree is tall with branches. So is a light pole. Doesnt mean light poles are trees.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I imagine when someone asks you for the time, you tell them instead how the tyrannical oligarchy at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures is part of a leftist plot to subvert time and assume control of the world's clocks, and only by putting it to a community vote is there hope for true Jeffersonian time to prevail.
What?! Hey! who? how?...who told you this darkest of secrets? Nobody was supposed to say anything! At least you didn't tie it in with daylight savings! :doh: Aw Crap! Now I've done it, we've been exposed!!! :suss:
thealj wrote:
At least you didn't tie it in with daylight savings!
That's just it! Benjamin Franklin, a founding father with a Jeffersonian notion of liberty, first conceived of DST. However, he never forced it on the public. It was democratically adopted by most areas in the US back around WWII, and some areas still refuse to use it. The left-wing International Bureau of Weights and Measures would like nothing more than to mandate DST internationally and subvert democracy!
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
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Because drama makes for good politics?
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
Because drama makes for good politics?
Sure does... Everybody has an agenda - that's why society is so divided and compartmentalized into all these little special interest groups be they homosexuals, creationists, scientists, catholics, muslims, hipsters, metrosexuals, leftists, righties, anarcho capitalists, blah, blah, blah... You see, people like to label things, people like to belong to groups, people like to point a finger in their own interest and say "that's the way it is according to me, don't tell me differently despite the facts because I know what I know and that's my world". Everybody is guilty of ignoring facts at some time in their life. Hence, the crime debate. Even though the statistics have been around for years that when people suffer income inequality somebody always wants what another has: it's the "have's" vs. the "have nots". Like prostitution, it's been around since the dawn of time and it's not going away. People will always be unequal, people will always commit crimes to obtain what they can't get on their own. Give people some basic skills and a job that they can feed themselves with and the problem shrinks, but it won't go away completely. Some segment of society will always feel frustrated that they can't escape their poverty and that leads to crime. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
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thealj wrote:
At least you didn't tie it in with daylight savings!
That's just it! Benjamin Franklin, a founding father with a Jeffersonian notion of liberty, first conceived of DST. However, he never forced it on the public. It was democratically adopted by most areas in the US back around WWII, and some areas still refuse to use it. The left-wing International Bureau of Weights and Measures would like nothing more than to mandate DST internationally and subvert democracy!
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
The left-wing International Bureau of Weights and Measures would like nothing more than to mandate DST internationally and subvert democracy!
Yes we they would! :suss:
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espeir wrote:
Because drama makes for good politics?
Sure does... Everybody has an agenda - that's why society is so divided and compartmentalized into all these little special interest groups be they homosexuals, creationists, scientists, catholics, muslims, hipsters, metrosexuals, leftists, righties, anarcho capitalists, blah, blah, blah... You see, people like to label things, people like to belong to groups, people like to point a finger in their own interest and say "that's the way it is according to me, don't tell me differently despite the facts because I know what I know and that's my world". Everybody is guilty of ignoring facts at some time in their life. Hence, the crime debate. Even though the statistics have been around for years that when people suffer income inequality somebody always wants what another has: it's the "have's" vs. the "have nots". Like prostitution, it's been around since the dawn of time and it's not going away. People will always be unequal, people will always commit crimes to obtain what they can't get on their own. Give people some basic skills and a job that they can feed themselves with and the problem shrinks, but it won't go away completely. Some segment of society will always feel frustrated that they can't escape their poverty and that leads to crime. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
metrosexuals?
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Increasing police presence would be a deterrent because it always has been. Crime increases in an area, the police increase visibility in that area, crime goes down. It's not a solution I agree with, but it certainly does work.
I disagree. I think increased police presence serves to do one (or both) of two things: 1. Drive crime more underground 2. Move crime elsewhere (as in relocation) Crime rates drop because there is less reporting of crime and the crimes are committed in another place. Overall, I do not think there is a correlation between level of police presence and decreasing overall crime rate.
thealj wrote:
1. Drive crime more underground
Probably true for non-violent crimes like drug use, but less true for crimes like burglary, armed robbery, and assault. I think increased police presence does actually reduce violent crime, but mostly by...
thealj wrote:
2. Move crime elsewhere (as in relocation)
Yes, moving it elsewhere. That's why I don't think it's an acceptable solution.
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David Kentley wrote:
You are right that it does not "necessarily" breed crime, in that there are (of course) honest poor people. As if that even needed to be stated. However, poverty does breed desperation, and you get enough desperate people crowded together in a tight area (as is usually the case) and someone is going to snap. The vast majority are innocent, but it does not take many malcontents to completely disrupt an area.
Crime is rarely the result of people "snapping" but of people with poor character who want the quick and easy. That's why the vast majority of crime is committed by young people.
David Kentley wrote:
Dammit, then you go off into the loony bin again. Yes, I am sure divorce, abortion and sex has caused all sorts of violent crime, and that it had nothing to do at all with the deterioration of inner cities and the sudden increase in drug culture that happened at the time.
Actually the deterioration of inner cities can be directly tied back to the breakdown of the family unit, but that's the result of another liberal political policy (welfare). Nearly 90% of all inner city black children are now born to mothers out of wedlock, reinforcing my point that if you're simply bad (often the result of being poorly raised) then you're going to commit crime. Liberal social policy encourages bad parenting.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
Crime is rarely the result of people "snapping"
Stress and pressure can very easily cause a "red mist" of the mind. Thus the reason for many wife/husband beatings irrespective of religion. Yes Christians as well as Muslims as well as ... hit their partners for many reasons including "red mist" situations. These can continue outside of the home environment so you can have supplementary crime that can be attributed to this "red mist" like situation.
espeir wrote:
Nearly 90% of all inner city black children are now born to mothers out of wedlock
Why does that matter. It is not a crime. In many societies, marriage is on the decline.
espeir wrote:
Liberal social policy encourages bad parenting
You can have good or bad parenting skills (and in some cases, both - depends on who is doing the judging). It doesn't matter which side of the political debate you come from. It doesn't matter which religion you support. It doesn't matter how wealthy you are.
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metrosexuals?
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
metrosexuals?
Yeah, metrosexual[^]. The bloody word of the millenium for the New York Times. Total stupidity. :rolleyes:
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thealj wrote:
1. Drive crime more underground
Probably true for non-violent crimes like drug use, but less true for crimes like burglary, armed robbery, and assault. I think increased police presence does actually reduce violent crime, but mostly by...
thealj wrote:
2. Move crime elsewhere (as in relocation)
Yes, moving it elsewhere. That's why I don't think it's an acceptable solution.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Yes, moving it elsewhere. That's why I don't think it's an acceptable solution.
I agree with you. I think it is more productive to look at the economic aspects of crime rather than increasing police presence. Nonetheless, it's obviously a complicated issue.
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espeir wrote:
metrosexuals?
Yeah, metrosexual[^]. The bloody word of the millenium for the New York Times. Total stupidity. :rolleyes:
I know what a metrosexual is. I just didn't think of it as a "group" like the others in your list.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
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I know what a metrosexual is. I just didn't think of it as a "group" like the others in your list.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
I know what a metrosexual is. I just didn't think of it as a "group" like the others in your list.
Oh, I see. Well somebody obviously coined it to differentiate themselves from others. You could argue it's a marketing campaign, but stick a title out there and somebody will eventually claim it.
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David Kentley wrote:
You are right that it does not "necessarily" breed crime, in that there are (of course) honest poor people. As if that even needed to be stated. However, poverty does breed desperation, and you get enough desperate people crowded together in a tight area (as is usually the case) and someone is going to snap. The vast majority are innocent, but it does not take many malcontents to completely disrupt an area.
Crime is rarely the result of people "snapping" but of people with poor character who want the quick and easy. That's why the vast majority of crime is committed by young people.
David Kentley wrote:
Dammit, then you go off into the loony bin again. Yes, I am sure divorce, abortion and sex has caused all sorts of violent crime, and that it had nothing to do at all with the deterioration of inner cities and the sudden increase in drug culture that happened at the time.
Actually the deterioration of inner cities can be directly tied back to the breakdown of the family unit, but that's the result of another liberal political policy (welfare). Nearly 90% of all inner city black children are now born to mothers out of wedlock, reinforcing my point that if you're simply bad (often the result of being poorly raised) then you're going to commit crime. Liberal social policy encourages bad parenting.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
Crime is rarely the result of people "snapping" but of people with poor character who want the quick and easy. That's why the vast majority of crime is committed by young people.
I think we pretty much agree. It's just that people in poor situations will be put to the test much more frequently than people with more comfortable lives. I believe most everyone, regardless of class standing, would pass when tested. Unfortunately, it doesn't take many failures to ruin entire areas, or at the very least the perception of an area.
espeir wrote:
Nearly 90% of all inner city black children are now born to mothers out of wedlock, reinforcing my point that if you're simply bad (often the result of being poorly raised) then you're going to commit crime. Liberal social policy encourages bad parenting.
And yet crime continues to fall. I think you're confusing symptoms and causes.
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
What part of "it's not a solution I agree with" didn't you understand?
I missed that part. But I find it odd it would not be a solution you agree with despite believing it works. I guess supporting a higher murder rate (like terrorism) is a justifiable expense in order to ensure that the government doesn't take away your weed garden.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I imagine when someone asks you for the time, you tell them instead how the tyrannical oligarchy at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures is part of a leftist plot to subvert time and assume control of the world's clocks, and only by putting it to a community vote is there hope for true Jeffersonian time to prevail.
I'll leave out the obvious irony with regards to Ben Franklin. :)
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
I missed that part. But I find it odd it would not be a solution you agree with despite believing it works.
It doesn't scale in a good way. It's a local solution only, a band-aid, and works mostly by relocating the crime. I'll take an educated and well-armed populace over a police state any day.
espeir wrote:
I guess supporting a higher murder rate (like terrorism) is a justifiable expense
So you would prefer a police state?
espeir wrote:
to ensure that the government doesn't take away your weed garden.
You seem to be obsessed by weed. Were your parents hippies? Did you watch "Reefer Madness" too many times in college at your Young Republican/Hitler Youth meetings? Is that what made you this way?
espeir wrote:
I'll leave out the obvious irony with regards to Ben Franklin.
Leave it to you to both miss the point and prove it in a single sentence.
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espeir wrote:
I know what a metrosexual is. I just didn't think of it as a "group" like the others in your list.
Oh, I see. Well somebody obviously coined it to differentiate themselves from others. You could argue it's a marketing campaign, but stick a title out there and somebody will eventually claim it.
My understanding is that it was a marketing campaign and that last year the same company came up with some new "super-macho-man" campaign. Regardless, I always have the urge to punch metrosexuals when I see them. Perhaps I should start a special interest group.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
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My understanding is that it was a marketing campaign and that last year the same company came up with some new "super-macho-man" campaign. Regardless, I always have the urge to punch metrosexuals when I see them. Perhaps I should start a special interest group.
"I curse economic prosperity as it puts an end to much-needed poverty, famine and pestilence." -dennisd45 "I fully support Communists in key positions of our government. I believe that they contribute positively to the liberal ideal." -dennisd45 "Liberals do not exist. You invented them to facilitate your strawman arguments." -dennisd45 "The Communist Manifest was written 150 years ago. It has been rigorously tested and is accepted by left"
espeir wrote:
Regardless, I always have the urge to punch metrosexuals when I see them. Perhaps I should start a special interest group.
I'll join.