Airline bomb plot not as imminent as previously claimed [modified]
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Rob Graham wrote:
Just another "Bush is reponnsible for everything" conspiracy theory.
Doesn't say that at all.
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. - Jim Morrison
"I wonder if Lieberman's defeat, the resilience of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the emergence of a Hezbollah-style government in Iraq had any bearing on the decision by Bush and Blair to pre-empt the British police and order this alleged plot disabled." But according to your other link (the one you added after my complaint): "But within hours of Mr. Rauf’s arrest on Aug. 9 in Pakistan, British officials heard from intelligence sources that someone connected to him had tried to contact some of the suspects in East London. The message was interpreted by investigators as a possible signal to move forward with the plot, officials said. “The plotters received a very short message to ‘Go now,’ ” said Franco Frattini, the European Union’s security commissioner, who was briefed by the British home secretary, John Reid, in London. “I was convinced by British authorities that this message exists.” A senior British official said the message from Pakistan was not that explicit. But, nonetheless, investigators here had to change their strategy quickly. “The aim was to keep this operation going for much longer,” said a senior British security official who requested anonymity because of confidentiality rules. “It ended much sooner than we had hoped.” From then on, the British government was driven by worst-case scenarios based on a minimum-risk strategy. British investigators worried that word of Mr. Rauf’s arrest could push the London suspects to destroy evidence and to disperse, raising the possibility they would not be able to arrest them all. But investigators also could not rule out that there could be an unknown second cell that would try to carry out a similar plan, officials said. Mr. Clarke, as the country’s top antiterrorism police official in London with authority over police decisions, ordered the arrests. But it was left to Mr. Reid, who has been home secretary since May and is a former defense secretary, to decide at emergency meetings of police, national security and transport leaders, what else needed to be done. Mr. Reid and Mr. Clarke declined repeated requests for interviews. " Your first link was clearly more interseted in making a political point than in accuracy. In any case, I'd much rather they moved too early than too late.
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Going forward on "information" resulting from torture is the stupid part.
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
The person quoted in the blog presumes that torture was used because the evidence came from the Pakistanis. Perhaps it was, perhaps not. The secon post points out that it was an apparent attempt to contact the suspects after the arrest in Pakistan that provoked the rapid response, rather than any intel learned from the arrested.
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"I wonder if Lieberman's defeat, the resilience of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the emergence of a Hezbollah-style government in Iraq had any bearing on the decision by Bush and Blair to pre-empt the British police and order this alleged plot disabled." But according to your other link (the one you added after my complaint): "But within hours of Mr. Rauf’s arrest on Aug. 9 in Pakistan, British officials heard from intelligence sources that someone connected to him had tried to contact some of the suspects in East London. The message was interpreted by investigators as a possible signal to move forward with the plot, officials said. “The plotters received a very short message to ‘Go now,’ ” said Franco Frattini, the European Union’s security commissioner, who was briefed by the British home secretary, John Reid, in London. “I was convinced by British authorities that this message exists.” A senior British official said the message from Pakistan was not that explicit. But, nonetheless, investigators here had to change their strategy quickly. “The aim was to keep this operation going for much longer,” said a senior British security official who requested anonymity because of confidentiality rules. “It ended much sooner than we had hoped.” From then on, the British government was driven by worst-case scenarios based on a minimum-risk strategy. British investigators worried that word of Mr. Rauf’s arrest could push the London suspects to destroy evidence and to disperse, raising the possibility they would not be able to arrest them all. But investigators also could not rule out that there could be an unknown second cell that would try to carry out a similar plan, officials said. Mr. Clarke, as the country’s top antiterrorism police official in London with authority over police decisions, ordered the arrests. But it was left to Mr. Reid, who has been home secretary since May and is a former defense secretary, to decide at emergency meetings of police, national security and transport leaders, what else needed to be done. Mr. Reid and Mr. Clarke declined repeated requests for interviews. " Your first link was clearly more interseted in making a political point than in accuracy. In any case, I'd much rather they moved too early than too late.
Rob Graham wrote:
"I wonder if Lieberman's defeat, the resilience of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the emergence of a Hezbollah-style government in Iraq had any bearing on the decision by Bush and Blair to pre-empt the British police and order this alleged plot disabled."
emphasis added. Speculation and he labels it as such.
Rob Graham wrote:
making a political point
Gee, who'd a thunk it? It's a blog, of course he's going to make a political point.
Rob Graham wrote:
than in accuracy.
What is inaccurate? None of your other quotes make any indication that the threat was imminent, which was my point.
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. - Jim Morrison
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Rob Graham wrote:
"I wonder if Lieberman's defeat, the resilience of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the emergence of a Hezbollah-style government in Iraq had any bearing on the decision by Bush and Blair to pre-empt the British police and order this alleged plot disabled."
emphasis added. Speculation and he labels it as such.
Rob Graham wrote:
making a political point
Gee, who'd a thunk it? It's a blog, of course he's going to make a political point.
Rob Graham wrote:
than in accuracy.
What is inaccurate? None of your other quotes make any indication that the threat was imminent, which was my point.
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. - Jim Morrison
dennisd45 wrote:
None of your other quotes make any indication that the threat was imminent
then you don't know how to read.
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
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dennisd45 wrote:
Your statements bear no relation to what was actually written.
:wtf: you quoted the same part I did :confused: Yes, if on the jury I would convict based only on the chat room evidence. How is that not related to what was written? :confused:
led mike wrote:
Yes, if on the jury I would convict based only on the chat room evidence. How is that not related to what was written?
If that is all the evidence that is available, the judge wouldn't even put the issue to the jury. The judge won't put a case to a jury unless it is open to a reasonable jury to convict. You are clearly unreasonable, so your opinions don't count.
John Carson "All Mr. Bush and his party can do at this point is demonize their opposition. And my guess is that the public won’t go for it, that Americans are fed up with leadership that has nothing to hope for but fear itself." Paul Krugman
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dennisd45 wrote:
None of your other quotes make any indication that the threat was imminent
then you don't know how to read.
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
Oh, I can read just fine, It appears the reading problem lies with you. "But at the same time, five senior British officials said, the suspects were not prepared to strike immediately" " Two of the suspects did not have passports" "the suspects had neither made reservations nor purchased plane tickets" "Despite the charges, officials said they were still unsure of one critical question: whether any of the suspects was technically capable of assembling and detonating liquid explosives while airborne." "As more information was analyzed and the British government decided that the attack was not imminent, Mr. Reid sought to calm the country by backing off from his dire predictions" -- modified at 20:07 Monday 11th September, 2006 From the Andrew Sullivan blog: "None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb."
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. - Jim Morrison
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Oh, I can read just fine, It appears the reading problem lies with you. "But at the same time, five senior British officials said, the suspects were not prepared to strike immediately" " Two of the suspects did not have passports" "the suspects had neither made reservations nor purchased plane tickets" "Despite the charges, officials said they were still unsure of one critical question: whether any of the suspects was technically capable of assembling and detonating liquid explosives while airborne." "As more information was analyzed and the British government decided that the attack was not imminent, Mr. Reid sought to calm the country by backing off from his dire predictions" -- modified at 20:07 Monday 11th September, 2006 From the Andrew Sullivan blog: "None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb."
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. - Jim Morrison
So hindsite is 20-20. Nothing new about that.
dennisd45 wrote:
Two of the suspects did not have passports"
Irrelevant, since AQ has a long history of forging passports.
dennisd45 wrote:
"None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb."
So how can mr. Sullivan be certain of that? He can't - he can only state that none has yet been found. Besides, exactly what is your point here? Are you suggesting that they should hve taken the risk of waiting to see if the threat was real and imminent? How long - until some planes actually disappeared in a ball of fire? Are your arguments supposed to convince me that the Democrats would do a better job of providing security in this environment? Or is this just another pointless excercise in finding fault with "the other side". This seems to be the only thing you Democrats are capable of these days, and it's become quite tiresome. As usual, it won't win you any votes, but I'm glad it makes you feel better. X|
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So hindsite is 20-20. Nothing new about that.
dennisd45 wrote:
Two of the suspects did not have passports"
Irrelevant, since AQ has a long history of forging passports.
dennisd45 wrote:
"None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb."
So how can mr. Sullivan be certain of that? He can't - he can only state that none has yet been found. Besides, exactly what is your point here? Are you suggesting that they should hve taken the risk of waiting to see if the threat was real and imminent? How long - until some planes actually disappeared in a ball of fire? Are your arguments supposed to convince me that the Democrats would do a better job of providing security in this environment? Or is this just another pointless excercise in finding fault with "the other side". This seems to be the only thing you Democrats are capable of these days, and it's become quite tiresome. As usual, it won't win you any votes, but I'm glad it makes you feel better. X|
Rob Graham wrote:
So hindsite is 20-20. Nothing new about that. dennisd45 wrote: Two of the suspects did not have passports" Irrelevant, since AQ has a long history of forging passports. dennisd45 wrote: "None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb." So how can mr. Sullivan be certain of that? He can't - he can only state that none has yet been found.
What is your point here? These quotes were in response to Ahz's claim that I could not read and the article supported the claim that the attack was imminent. It was not.
Rob Graham wrote:
Besides, exactly what is your point here?
My point is that even though a terrorist plot had been foiled, that wasn't enough. It had to be hyperventilated with "The attack was imminent" "the most serious threat since 9/11" etc. A red alert was raised, even though there is no evidence that there were any other conspirators.
Rob Graham wrote:
you suggesting that they should hve taken the risk of waiting to see if the threat was real and imminent?
No. My point had nothing to do with the timing of the arrests.
Rob Graham wrote:
Are your arguments supposed to convince me that the Democrats would do a better job of providing security in this environment?
No. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. My point is that the current administration will not hesitate to manipulate the truth for political gain.
Rob Graham wrote:
Or is this just another pointless excercise in finding fault with "the other side".
No more pointless than the right wings defense of the disaster that is Iraq, which I find quite tiresome
Rob Graham wrote:
As usual, it won't win you any votes
As usual, I'm still not running for office.
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. - Jim Morrison
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Rob Graham wrote:
So hindsite is 20-20. Nothing new about that. dennisd45 wrote: Two of the suspects did not have passports" Irrelevant, since AQ has a long history of forging passports. dennisd45 wrote: "None of the alleged terrorists had made a bomb." So how can mr. Sullivan be certain of that? He can't - he can only state that none has yet been found.
What is your point here? These quotes were in response to Ahz's claim that I could not read and the article supported the claim that the attack was imminent. It was not.
Rob Graham wrote:
Besides, exactly what is your point here?
My point is that even though a terrorist plot had been foiled, that wasn't enough. It had to be hyperventilated with "The attack was imminent" "the most serious threat since 9/11" etc. A red alert was raised, even though there is no evidence that there were any other conspirators.
Rob Graham wrote:
you suggesting that they should hve taken the risk of waiting to see if the threat was real and imminent?
No. My point had nothing to do with the timing of the arrests.
Rob Graham wrote:
Are your arguments supposed to convince me that the Democrats would do a better job of providing security in this environment?
No. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. My point is that the current administration will not hesitate to manipulate the truth for political gain.
Rob Graham wrote:
Or is this just another pointless excercise in finding fault with "the other side".
No more pointless than the right wings defense of the disaster that is Iraq, which I find quite tiresome
Rob Graham wrote:
As usual, it won't win you any votes
As usual, I'm still not running for office.
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. - Jim Morrison
dennisd45 wrote:
My point is that the current administration will not hesitate to manipulate the truth for political gain.
What the heck did the current administration have to do with how the Brits handled the situation? Are you actually suggesting that GWB told Tony (while Tony was off on Vacation) how to handle all this? The second article even states that the decision as to how to proceed was left up to the British home secretary.
dennisd45 wrote:
As usual, I'm still not running for office.
Sure is hard to tell, given the way you trot out the party talking points at every opportunity.
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dennisd45 wrote:
My point is that the current administration will not hesitate to manipulate the truth for political gain.
What the heck did the current administration have to do with how the Brits handled the situation? Are you actually suggesting that GWB told Tony (while Tony was off on Vacation) how to handle all this? The second article even states that the decision as to how to proceed was left up to the British home secretary.
dennisd45 wrote:
As usual, I'm still not running for office.
Sure is hard to tell, given the way you trot out the party talking points at every opportunity.
Why do you respond to posts that you don't ever read? My point is that the current administration will not hesitate to manipulate the truth for political gain. Why is that not clear?
Rob Graham wrote:
What the heck did the current administration have to do with how the Brits handled the situation? Are you actually suggesting that GWB told Tony (while Tony was off on Vacation) how to handle all this? The second article even states that the decision as to how to proceed was left up to the British home secretary.
??? Clearly you are not reading what I am writing and are responding to what you wish that I said.
Rob Graham wrote:
Sure is hard to tell, given the way you trot out the party talking points at every opportunity.
The only talking points seem to be in your head. That seems to be what you are responding to, not to what I actually said.
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. - Jim Morrison