If there is a god
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Chris Maunder wrote: You mean the bible states that preaching celibacy is the doctrine of devils? And no one noticed? No-one seems to have noticed a lot of what the Bible says... Chris Maunder wrote: I'm sure there's probably a counterpoint or balancing argument (or even context that may be applied), but still... The context is that the Bible only accepts sex in marriage. Beyond that, the Bible encourages it, in fact it tells married people they have a duty not to deny their partner sex. The idea of a celibate priesthood is completely unBiblical - Jesus said some people are by nature celibate ( actually, I think it was Paul ), but enforcing it or enshrining it as a sign of Holiness is simply not in line with what the Bible says. Thank goodness for that. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: The idea of a celibate priesthood is completely unBiblical Isn't that because of the confession in the Catholic church? At least that is what I have heard. A confessor should be prepared to die rather than telling someone about what he has been told. That is a lot harder with a wife and seven children. Or is that just an explanation that has come up afterwards to justify the celibacy? :confused: /moliate --------------- In an ancient monastary a new monk arrived to join the brothers in copying books and scrolls in the library. Because he was still so young, he was assigned as a proof reader on copies of books that had already been copied by hand. One day, he asked Father Florian, the overseer of the library, 'Does not the copying by hand of other copies allow for the chance of error? How do we know that we are not copying the mistakes of someone else? Are they ever checked against the original?' Fr. Florian was set back by this obvious logical question from one so young, but said, ' That is a very good point, my son. I will take one of the latest copies down to the vault and compare it against the oldest book we have.' Fr. Florian went down to the vault and began his verification. After a whole day had passed without his return, the other monks were concerned, so they went looking for the old priest, as they approached the vault, they could hear through the open door, sobbing and crying. When they go to the door and looked in, Fr. Florian was sitting on the floor with both the new and the obviously ancient volume lying in his lap. It appeared that he had been crying for a long time. 'What is the problem, Reverend Father?', aksed one of the monks. 'Oh, My Lord, the word is 'celebrate'!'
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Christian Graus wrote: The idea of a celibate priesthood is completely unBiblical Isn't that because of the confession in the Catholic church? At least that is what I have heard. A confessor should be prepared to die rather than telling someone about what he has been told. That is a lot harder with a wife and seven children. Or is that just an explanation that has come up afterwards to justify the celibacy? :confused: /moliate --------------- In an ancient monastary a new monk arrived to join the brothers in copying books and scrolls in the library. Because he was still so young, he was assigned as a proof reader on copies of books that had already been copied by hand. One day, he asked Father Florian, the overseer of the library, 'Does not the copying by hand of other copies allow for the chance of error? How do we know that we are not copying the mistakes of someone else? Are they ever checked against the original?' Fr. Florian was set back by this obvious logical question from one so young, but said, ' That is a very good point, my son. I will take one of the latest copies down to the vault and compare it against the oldest book we have.' Fr. Florian went down to the vault and began his verification. After a whole day had passed without his return, the other monks were concerned, so they went looking for the old priest, as they approached the vault, they could hear through the open door, sobbing and crying. When they go to the door and looked in, Fr. Florian was sitting on the floor with both the new and the obviously ancient volume lying in his lap. It appeared that he had been crying for a long time. 'What is the problem, Reverend Father?', aksed one of the monks. 'Oh, My Lord, the word is 'celebrate'!'
I dunno where the celibacy came from, but the confessional is another invention, and one quite useful to the RCC as a power structure in times gone by. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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I dunno where the celibacy came from, but the confessional is another invention, and one quite useful to the RCC as a power structure in times gone by. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: I dunno where the celibacy came from, It was a way of having more control over the priests lives. One Pope had all the priests wives and children rounded up and sold into slaverly. The big thing about being a priest was you were one of the few people capable of reading. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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You've got it all mixed up, mate. The central figure of catholism isn't God or Christ; it's the Pope. You can't equate Catholism with Christianity though Catholics are sort of Christians. Besides, some priests are deviants doesn't mean all are deviants. Michael P Butler wrote: If there is a god We,human beings, think with our limited brain and knowledge we can prove or disprove the existence of God. There is much more to the universe and existence than we ever might know. Michael P Butler wrote: he doesn't give a f***. God doesn't give a f*** about those who don't seek him, worship him and obey him. Clearly, the deviant people don't obey him. Michael P Butler wrote: they need a bullet through the brain. Who has the moral right to do that? Other sinners? Hence the hell fires. :)
omg wrote: God doesn't give a f*** about those who don't seek him, worship him and obey him. Clearly, the deviant people don't obey him. OK, but what about the children who believe in him who are fucked over by the deviant priests. Why doesn't this omnipotent, omnipresent being zip on down and save the child? That question right there pisses all over the, "there is a God who loves us" dribble. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
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Chris Maunder wrote: And no one noticed? LOL, Chris the Catholic church only really forced the priests into celbacy in the 12 th century. Some priests even had multiple wives. Chris Maunder wrote: I'm sure there's probably a counterpoint or balancing argument (or even context that may be applied), I don't think so, not about this. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
****Colin Davies wrote: Chris the Catholic church only really forced the priests into celbacy in the 12 th century. Some priests even had multiple wives. Colin, do you have some links on this and other religious matters? I also believe that celibate priests are a rather modern thing, though I thought more along the lines of keeping all wealth in the church. No family no need for possesions to stay in the family. Another thing I have heard over the years is the whole religious thing started in England during wars with other countries. There was no way to get the masses to rise up and fight for the King, but for a God who would save your soul was another matter. The whole layout of the church with King/Pope at head, ArchBishops, Bishops, Cardinals, Priests seems a little too military ofr my likings. Never did any real research into any of this and I suppose I should if I want to express opinions on the matter. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
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I have about 10 Bibles in my software, which version do you prefer ( for future reference ) ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian, if I was looking to purchase a Bible to read since I haven't read one for 20 years which would you recommend. I want one that isn't too flowery in the old fashioned English but also one that is as close to the original as exists. Have I created an oxymoron/contradiction? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
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If there is a god, I think this proves he doesn't give a fuck. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1945000/1945848.stm Burning in the fires of hell is to good for these so called priests. I think they need a bullet through the brain. Michael :-)
I don't understand why, with so many nuns around them, why they have to go for kids, then the celebacy issue would have some footing. Now they just look like a bunch of pervs.:~ If there is a god, it has nothing to do with this. The church is a man made organization and as such is vulnerable to the evils of mankind. The catholic church is a terrible thing. It has repeatedly knowingly and willfully looked away when great evil threatened it(Nazis and child molesters), and then tried to cover up the truth; All the while taking peoples money and passing judgement on the rest of the world. The Catholic church has been fucking people for too long. I say fuck them!!:mad: :mad: ...with a splintered broom stick covered in fish hooks and razor blades!!:mad: :mad: Josh Knox that-guy.net
I doubt, therefore I might be.
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****Colin Davies wrote: Chris the Catholic church only really forced the priests into celbacy in the 12 th century. Some priests even had multiple wives. Colin, do you have some links on this and other religious matters? I also believe that celibate priests are a rather modern thing, though I thought more along the lines of keeping all wealth in the church. No family no need for possesions to stay in the family. Another thing I have heard over the years is the whole religious thing started in England during wars with other countries. There was no way to get the masses to rise up and fight for the King, but for a God who would save your soul was another matter. The whole layout of the church with King/Pope at head, ArchBishops, Bishops, Cardinals, Priests seems a little too military ofr my likings. Never did any real research into any of this and I suppose I should if I want to express opinions on the matter. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
Michael http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Celibacy.html from this it says you are right about the keeping property in the church stuff. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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Christian, if I was looking to purchase a Bible to read since I haven't read one for 20 years which would you recommend. I want one that isn't too flowery in the old fashioned English but also one that is as close to the original as exists. Have I created an oxymoron/contradiction? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
I'd recommend the New King James Version. The King James is a better transaltion than more recent ones, because the errors tend to be cumulative, i.e. the newer versions tend to repeat the errors of older versions and add their oown. The NIV even has missing verses !!! The New King James is the King James turned into more modern English. I'd recommend that you start with the Gospels and Acts. Everything prior to that needs to be read in their context, and everything after that needs to be read with an understanding of what Jesus did when He was here, and the history of the church. The stuff after Acts is mostly letters written to the churches established in the book of Acts. The Bible that the Gideons give away is also a pretty reasonable read. The one to avoid like the plague is the Good News - it's not a transation, but more a loose retelling in simple words for people who don't care about accuracy and can't really read terribly well. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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omg wrote: God doesn't give a f*** about those who don't seek him, worship him and obey him. Clearly, the deviant people don't obey him. OK, but what about the children who believe in him who are fucked over by the deviant priests. Why doesn't this omnipotent, omnipresent being zip on down and save the child? That question right there pisses all over the, "there is a God who loves us" dribble. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
Michael Martin wrote: OK, but what about the children who believe in him who are f***ed over by the deviant priests. Why doesn't this omnipotent, omnipresent being zip on down and save the child? If you expect God to zip on down and save the child, it means that you want God to obey your will which is shaped by your concepts of justice, fairness and innocence. But God wants his will and justice to prevail. God of the bible is a proud, jealous and autocratic father figure - I mean - sprit. It's his way or highway (to hell) which is understandable since he is the creator. After Adam's sin, God considers no human, child or adult, as sinless and totally innocent. There must be reasons unknown to humans why God does not interfere except on very rare occassions. :)
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I'd recommend the New King James Version. The King James is a better transaltion than more recent ones, because the errors tend to be cumulative, i.e. the newer versions tend to repeat the errors of older versions and add their oown. The NIV even has missing verses !!! The New King James is the King James turned into more modern English. I'd recommend that you start with the Gospels and Acts. Everything prior to that needs to be read in their context, and everything after that needs to be read with an understanding of what Jesus did when He was here, and the history of the church. The stuff after Acts is mostly letters written to the churches established in the book of Acts. The Bible that the Gideons give away is also a pretty reasonable read. The one to avoid like the plague is the Good News - it's not a transation, but more a loose retelling in simple words for people who don't care about accuracy and can't really read terribly well. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: Everything prior to that needs to be read in their context, and everything after that needs to be read with an understanding of what Jesus did when He was here, and the history of the church. This seems like a Catch-22. How would you know the context without reading it first? Also how would you get an understanding of what Jesus did on Earth without reading it? I didn't get a response to my piss take email last night "Do you want a big tool". Did it not get to you or you didn't see the humour in context of the post you made? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Everything prior to that needs to be read in their context, and everything after that needs to be read with an understanding of what Jesus did when He was here, and the history of the church. This seems like a Catch-22. How would you know the context without reading it first? Also how would you get an understanding of what Jesus did on Earth without reading it? I didn't get a response to my piss take email last night "Do you want a big tool". Did it not get to you or you didn't see the humour in context of the post you made? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "He orginally got the Tweezers of Destruction through the scanners but then popped back outside for a smoke." - Chris Maunder 26/03/2002
Michael Martin wrote: Christian Graus wrote: Everything prior to that needs to be read in their context, and everything after that needs to be read with an understanding of what Jesus did when He was here, and the history of the church. This seems like a Catch-22. How would you know the context without reading it first? Also how would you get an understanding of what Jesus did on Earth without reading it? Then I explained it poorly. Read the Gospels and Acts first, which tell you what Jesus said and did, and then the history of the early church. THAT gives context to the rest of the new testament which consists largely of letters written to the people you read about in Acts. The Old Testament is full of good stuff, but also contains a lot of commandments that applied only to those people, who lived prior to Jesus. Therefore, starting from Genesis is a bad idea, because it's especially hard going if you think the Law applies to you. Michael Martin wrote: I didn't get a response to my piss take email last night "Do you want a big tool". Did it not get to you or you didn't see the humour in context of the post you made? I got it, I laughed, I was snowed under and did not reply. I worked a total of 26 hours in the 36 prior and pretty much replied to very little before going to bed. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002