An American POV
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I downloaded a song by the band Jackyl post Sept 11, and it often features the line 'the USA has never lost a war'...... Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Hmmm... that blanket statement is obviously untrue and quite arrogant-sounding, perhaps they are referring to the fact that no wars have been fought on American soil (except the civil war), or perhaps that we as a nation have not lost a war, but allies we have been actively supporting have (I'm not sure if that statement I just made is right myself ;) ). I dunno, just wondering what they could be reffering to.
-Domenic Denicola- [CPUA 0x1337] MadHamster Creations "I was born human. But this was an accident of fate - a condition merely of time and place. I believe it's something we have the power to change..."
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The article very succinctly summarizes what it means to be an American, despite what the rest of the world may think of us. We do believe in these freedoms, and we very much stand for the individual against the state; that's why we have the second ammendment. When I was somewhat older than you are, Domenic, that song was current. A lot of us were tramping about the streets, holding up signs questioning our government's interest in so obscure a war. That was a time when America lost its innocence. Prior to that era, we trusted everything the Feds told us. Then we suddenly discovered that LBJ and Tricky Dick were liars. You can't imagine what an impact that had on our society. It was sorta like rape, without the fringe benefits. I know that's an inappropriate thing to say to so young a man as you, but you have demonstrated here a maturity beyond your years. What I want to convey to you, is the shock that was delivered to the entire nation during that period. The local cop was no longer your friend, the government pronouncements could no longer be trusted. We, for a long time, were a nation lost. We have yet to recover that innocent feeling that we had before. I don't think we ever will. I'm really glad that you take an interest in such things, and I hope you will pursue your interests in that field. We could use a few politically-aware technocrats in our society.. maybe the future isn't as bleak as I thought, if there are more young people out there like you... Keep learning, young man... I'm proud to know you.
:-D
-Domenic Denicola- [CPUA 0x1337] MadHamster Creations "I was born human. But this was an accident of fate - a condition merely of time and place. I believe it's something we have the power to change..."
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Hmmm... that blanket statement is obviously untrue and quite arrogant-sounding, perhaps they are referring to the fact that no wars have been fought on American soil (except the civil war), or perhaps that we as a nation have not lost a war, but allies we have been actively supporting have (I'm not sure if that statement I just made is right myself ;) ). I dunno, just wondering what they could be reffering to.
-Domenic Denicola- [CPUA 0x1337] MadHamster Creations "I was born human. But this was an accident of fate - a condition merely of time and place. I believe it's something we have the power to change..."
Domenic [CPUA 0x1337] wrote: perhaps that we as a nation have not lost a war Viet Nam James Simplicity Rules!
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Domenic [CPUA 0x1337] wrote: perhaps that we as a nation have not lost a war Viet Nam James Simplicity Rules!
Vietnam was a ... wait for it ... police action. :rolleyes: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
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Roger, Honestly do you take that article as being correct ? Because it in many places alters what little I know of history, which is what I made the comment that I did. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
In what way does it alter history? At least for the Vietnam and Nixon period, I was there. I even worked on the committee to help re-elect the SOB, before we found out what he was really up to. Despite any hidden agenda our leaders may have, the citizens really do believe in the principles espoused in that article.
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Domenic [CPUA 0x1337] wrote: perhaps that we as a nation have not lost a war Viet Nam James Simplicity Rules!
Weren't we simply supporting another nation? Probably not, as I am completely uneducated about these things, and you sound like you know what you're talking about.
-Domenic Denicola- [CPUA 0x1337] MadHamster Creations "I was born human. But this was an accident of fate - a condition merely of time and place. I believe it's something we have the power to change..."
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In what way does it alter history? At least for the Vietnam and Nixon period, I was there. I even worked on the committee to help re-elect the SOB, before we found out what he was really up to. Despite any hidden agenda our leaders may have, the citizens really do believe in the principles espoused in that article.
Ok Roger take the Spin implied here. The ultimate test of the American system of government came in 1974. A sitting President had shown total contempt for Constitutional guarantees; he wanted to become an authoritarian leader such as led countries elsewhere in the world. And within two years he had been deposed and replaced, without anyone dying. No shots were fired; none were even threatened. No troops were mobilized. Good and conscientious men in the Senate and House of Representatives convinced him to resign by threatening to remove him from power through impeachment. Our system survived. And we didn't even punish Nixon afterwards; there was no need. He didn't even have to go into exile. This is unprecedented Ok the phrase : he wanted to become an authoritarian leader such as led countries elsewhere in the world. To me doesn't really run true he was playing dirty politics like many presidents before him had played, except he was caught. . And we didn't even punish Nixon afterwards; there was no need. I'm unsure if its the process or an agreement where a sitting President cannot be taken to court for the actions he has taken as a president. But that phrase makes it sound like it was from the good-ness of the American peoples heart. Sometimes I wonder if the USA wanted to blame Nixon for the Vietnam fiasco. Roger Wright wrote: Despite any hidden agenda our leaders may have, I actually don't think there are any big hidden agendas. Roger Wright wrote: the citizens really do believe in the principles espoused in that article. The Principles in the article are fine, I'm just against changing history with a bit of Spin to justify them, as things get furthur away time wise it is easier to modify history. And this is dangerous for a whole host of reasons. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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Like what? I can't see any, but I am not even through with U.S. history, much less world history ;P
-Domenic Denicola- [CPUA 0x1337] MadHamster Creations "I was born human. But this was an accident of fate - a condition merely of time and place. I believe it's something we have the power to change..."
This is an interesting point: there is not to my knowledge a single case in history where two major democratic capitalist nations have fought a major war against each other, but authoritarian regimes oppose each other constantly. What about the Falklands war ? Note the Argentia Junta were enabled by the people. Shinto theocracy in Japan fell at the end of World War II. What shinto theocracy, shintoism is a belief not a religion. The second major war pitted the forces of Freedom against the forces in favor of Slavery, perhaps one of two ultimate manifestations of authoritarianism we have ever faced. (More on the other later.) In the system of slavery, many people have no freedom at all and can even be tortured or killed with impunity. It took a great war in which hundreds of thousands of men died or were wounded to settle that issue, and Freedom won that time, too. If Slavery was so bad, why was it not written a bit harder into the constitution. The Northern states wanted to have economic power over the sothern states and thus wanted to terminate slavery. So the Southern States wished to become independant which the North wouldn't allow. Truly a horrible war but the politics behind it were far more than just the abolition of slavery on humnaitarian grounds. It doesn't take much to alter history to suit the needs of the author Domenic. I don't consider myself Anti-American rather Pro-American Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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Vietnam was a ... wait for it ... police action. :rolleyes: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
hah, far too many men died for me to accept that term. James Simplicity Rules!
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Weren't we simply supporting another nation? Probably not, as I am completely uneducated about these things, and you sound like you know what you're talking about.
-Domenic Denicola- [CPUA 0x1337] MadHamster Creations "I was born human. But this was an accident of fate - a condition merely of time and place. I believe it's something we have the power to change..."
Yes, we originally were supporting France but after awhile they said "ok guys you seem to have it under control we're just gonna let you do your thing". James Simplicity Rules!
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Domenic [CPUA 0x1337] wrote: So, your opinions? It moulds history to fit the opinion of the author, and is full of inaccuracies for justification purposes. Lets face it Domenic, if you were brainwashed would you actually know it ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
****Colin Davies wrote: Lets face it Domenic, if you were brainwashed would you actually know it ? It would be impossible. If I am "brainwashed" I believe something to be true, so it is in essence true to me; therefore, it is true in my reality, which in turn does make it true. If you believe something else then it is true to you. You see, you can't know for sure what happened in the past. What if someone made some inaccurate writing that we all accepted as is? It didn't really happen, but everyone in the world believes it did, so then it really did happen. The only reason we think that "r" equals "r" is because a lot of people agree on it, but it doesn't mean "r" really equals "r" -- we just accept that it does until shown otherwise at large. We then integrate that into our realities and then "r" really does equal "r", until it's disproved, and so on and so on. POV is relativity. Relativity is just that -- relative. There is no correct and incorrect outside our own minds. On a lighter note, if I have a history question I know who to ask. ;P Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Sonork = 100.16311
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Hmmm... that blanket statement is obviously untrue and quite arrogant-sounding, perhaps they are referring to the fact that no wars have been fought on American soil (except the civil war), or perhaps that we as a nation have not lost a war, but allies we have been actively supporting have (I'm not sure if that statement I just made is right myself ;) ). I dunno, just wondering what they could be reffering to.
-Domenic Denicola- [CPUA 0x1337] MadHamster Creations "I was born human. But this was an accident of fate - a condition merely of time and place. I believe it's something we have the power to change..."
Domenic [CPUA 0x1337] wrote: Hmmm... that blanket statement is obviously untrue Correct. Domenic [CPUA 0x1337] wrote: or perhaps that we as a nation have not lost a war, but allies we have been actively supporting have (I'm not sure if that statement I just made is right myself ). As has been mentioned, you guys started war in Vietnam, over your fear of communism, and you ended up running like hell. Korea was pretty much the same deal, but I reckon it was more fun, because people like Chuck Norris and Sly Stallone went to Vietnam, but Korea had all the guys from MASH.... This is not a criticism, just an observation. I'm astounded that you don't know such recent US history, do they only teach about the wars you won in US schools ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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This is an interesting point: there is not to my knowledge a single case in history where two major democratic capitalist nations have fought a major war against each other, but authoritarian regimes oppose each other constantly. What about the Falklands war ? Note the Argentia Junta were enabled by the people. Shinto theocracy in Japan fell at the end of World War II. What shinto theocracy, shintoism is a belief not a religion. The second major war pitted the forces of Freedom against the forces in favor of Slavery, perhaps one of two ultimate manifestations of authoritarianism we have ever faced. (More on the other later.) In the system of slavery, many people have no freedom at all and can even be tortured or killed with impunity. It took a great war in which hundreds of thousands of men died or were wounded to settle that issue, and Freedom won that time, too. If Slavery was so bad, why was it not written a bit harder into the constitution. The Northern states wanted to have economic power over the sothern states and thus wanted to terminate slavery. So the Southern States wished to become independant which the North wouldn't allow. Truly a horrible war but the politics behind it were far more than just the abolition of slavery on humnaitarian grounds. It doesn't take much to alter history to suit the needs of the author Domenic. I don't consider myself Anti-American rather Pro-American Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
****Colin Davies wrote: If Slavery was so bad, why was it not written a bit harder into the constitution. This statement trivialises what the slaves had to undergo. It's a baseless assumption that it isn't so bad just because it was not written a bit harder into the constitution. :suss:
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****Colin Davies wrote: Lets face it Domenic, if you were brainwashed would you actually know it ? It would be impossible. If I am "brainwashed" I believe something to be true, so it is in essence true to me; therefore, it is true in my reality, which in turn does make it true. If you believe something else then it is true to you. You see, you can't know for sure what happened in the past. What if someone made some inaccurate writing that we all accepted as is? It didn't really happen, but everyone in the world believes it did, so then it really did happen. The only reason we think that "r" equals "r" is because a lot of people agree on it, but it doesn't mean "r" really equals "r" -- we just accept that it does until shown otherwise at large. We then integrate that into our realities and then "r" really does equal "r", until it's disproved, and so on and so on. POV is relativity. Relativity is just that -- relative. There is no correct and incorrect outside our own minds. On a lighter note, if I have a history question I know who to ask. ;P Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Sonork = 100.16311
01000010011011110110001000100000011101110110000101110011
00100000011010000110010101110010011001010010111000000000Jeremy Falcon wrote: On a lighter note, if I have a history question I know who to ask. The trouble is history also is a matter of perspective, generally history as seen by the victor remains. Jeremy Falcon wrote: POV is relativity. Relativity is just that -- relative. There is no correct and incorrect outside our own minds. Exactly, I was trying to give Domenic an abstract thought to show that. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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Ok Roger take the Spin implied here. The ultimate test of the American system of government came in 1974. A sitting President had shown total contempt for Constitutional guarantees; he wanted to become an authoritarian leader such as led countries elsewhere in the world. And within two years he had been deposed and replaced, without anyone dying. No shots were fired; none were even threatened. No troops were mobilized. Good and conscientious men in the Senate and House of Representatives convinced him to resign by threatening to remove him from power through impeachment. Our system survived. And we didn't even punish Nixon afterwards; there was no need. He didn't even have to go into exile. This is unprecedented Ok the phrase : he wanted to become an authoritarian leader such as led countries elsewhere in the world. To me doesn't really run true he was playing dirty politics like many presidents before him had played, except he was caught. . And we didn't even punish Nixon afterwards; there was no need. I'm unsure if its the process or an agreement where a sitting President cannot be taken to court for the actions he has taken as a president. But that phrase makes it sound like it was from the good-ness of the American peoples heart. Sometimes I wonder if the USA wanted to blame Nixon for the Vietnam fiasco. Roger Wright wrote: Despite any hidden agenda our leaders may have, I actually don't think there are any big hidden agendas. Roger Wright wrote: the citizens really do believe in the principles espoused in that article. The Principles in the article are fine, I'm just against changing history with a bit of Spin to justify them, as things get furthur away time wise it is easier to modify history. And this is dangerous for a whole host of reasons. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
****Colin Davies wrote: To me doesn't really run true he was playing dirty politics like many presidents before him had played, except he was caught. He far exceeded what any other President ever attempted before, and destroyed many lives in the process. It could be argued, I suppose, that Sen. McCarthy and his House Unamerican Activities Committee did much more harm, but he wasn't the so-called Leader of the Free World. A President has a moral obligation to uphold a higher standard than a mere Senator - he is a figurehead that is supposed to represent all of the US! ****Colin Davies wrote: I'm unsure if its the process or an agreement where a sitting President cannot be taken to court for the actions he has taken as a president. The President is immune from prosecution while in office, but not after. The country was in such shock from the revelations of Nixon's actions that Ford felt it was better for the nation to pardon Nixon and save us the circus sideshow a trial would have become. I still am undecided as to whether that was a smart thing to do. It was meant to put a dark episode behind us and move on, but it seems to me that it opened the door for more misbehavior from future Presidents. ****Colin Davies wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the USA wanted to blame Nixon for the Vietnam fiasco. It does seem like it sometimes, doesn't it? They forget that he's the one who decided that it was time to back down, admit that the war was going nowhere, and cut our losses. The blame for that fiasco lies in the lap of LBJ, who nurtured and fed on the whole military buildup.
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****Colin Davies wrote: If Slavery was so bad, why was it not written a bit harder into the constitution. This statement trivialises what the slaves had to undergo. It's a baseless assumption that it isn't so bad just because it was not written a bit harder into the constitution. :suss:
Please argue the issue, rather than taking an isolated statement out of context. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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Domenic [CPUA 0x1337] wrote: Hmmm... that blanket statement is obviously untrue Correct. Domenic [CPUA 0x1337] wrote: or perhaps that we as a nation have not lost a war, but allies we have been actively supporting have (I'm not sure if that statement I just made is right myself ). As has been mentioned, you guys started war in Vietnam, over your fear of communism, and you ended up running like hell. Korea was pretty much the same deal, but I reckon it was more fun, because people like Chuck Norris and Sly Stallone went to Vietnam, but Korea had all the guys from MASH.... This is not a criticism, just an observation. I'm astounded that you don't know such recent US history, do they only teach about the wars you won in US schools ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: This is not a criticism, just an observation. I'm astounded that you don't know such recent US history, do they only teach about the wars you won in US schools ? There is a big difference between wars and battles. Like Remember the Alamo there seem to several versions of it. And General Custer. The Brits are just as bad with the Charge of the Light Brigade, somehow managing to imortalise a military disaster. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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Christian Graus wrote: This is not a criticism, just an observation. I'm astounded that you don't know such recent US history, do they only teach about the wars you won in US schools ? There is a big difference between wars and battles. Like Remember the Alamo there seem to several versions of it. And General Custer. The Brits are just as bad with the Charge of the Light Brigade, somehow managing to imortalise a military disaster. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
****Colin Davies wrote: Like Remember the Alamo there seem to several versions of it. And General Custer. The Brits are just as bad with the Charge of the Light Brigade, somehow managing to imortalise a military disaster. Happy Anzac day :P Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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****Colin Davies wrote: To me doesn't really run true he was playing dirty politics like many presidents before him had played, except he was caught. He far exceeded what any other President ever attempted before, and destroyed many lives in the process. It could be argued, I suppose, that Sen. McCarthy and his House Unamerican Activities Committee did much more harm, but he wasn't the so-called Leader of the Free World. A President has a moral obligation to uphold a higher standard than a mere Senator - he is a figurehead that is supposed to represent all of the US! ****Colin Davies wrote: I'm unsure if its the process or an agreement where a sitting President cannot be taken to court for the actions he has taken as a president. The President is immune from prosecution while in office, but not after. The country was in such shock from the revelations of Nixon's actions that Ford felt it was better for the nation to pardon Nixon and save us the circus sideshow a trial would have become. I still am undecided as to whether that was a smart thing to do. It was meant to put a dark episode behind us and move on, but it seems to me that it opened the door for more misbehavior from future Presidents. ****Colin Davies wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the USA wanted to blame Nixon for the Vietnam fiasco. It does seem like it sometimes, doesn't it? They forget that he's the one who decided that it was time to back down, admit that the war was going nowhere, and cut our losses. The blame for that fiasco lies in the lap of LBJ, who nurtured and fed on the whole military buildup.
Roger Wright wrote: It could be argued, I suppose, that Sen. McCarthy and his House Unamerican Activities Committee did much more harm, but he wasn't the so-called Leader of the Free World. That was more a perversion of the Govt System for reasons of popularity. Roger Wright wrote: Ford felt it was better for the nation to pardon Nixon and save us the circus sideshow a trial would have bec Ok, thats right, now I remember. Didn't the Nixon Admin also get 'Bussing' started and put a man on the moon and open up communications with China. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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This is an interesting point: there is not to my knowledge a single case in history where two major democratic capitalist nations have fought a major war against each other, but authoritarian regimes oppose each other constantly. What about the Falklands war ? Note the Argentia Junta were enabled by the people. Shinto theocracy in Japan fell at the end of World War II. What shinto theocracy, shintoism is a belief not a religion. The second major war pitted the forces of Freedom against the forces in favor of Slavery, perhaps one of two ultimate manifestations of authoritarianism we have ever faced. (More on the other later.) In the system of slavery, many people have no freedom at all and can even be tortured or killed with impunity. It took a great war in which hundreds of thousands of men died or were wounded to settle that issue, and Freedom won that time, too. If Slavery was so bad, why was it not written a bit harder into the constitution. The Northern states wanted to have economic power over the sothern states and thus wanted to terminate slavery. So the Southern States wished to become independant which the North wouldn't allow. Truly a horrible war but the politics behind it were far more than just the abolition of slavery on humnaitarian grounds. It doesn't take much to alter history to suit the needs of the author Domenic. I don't consider myself Anti-American rather Pro-American Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
****Colin Davies wrote: What about the Falklands war ? Note the Argentia Junta were enabled by the people. Got me there. No historical knowledge of the Falklands war, can't argue with that. Can someone else? ****Colin Davies wrote: What shinto theocracy, shintoism is a belief not a religion. Again, historical ignorance strikes. However, perhaps it was so dominant and/or maybe oppressive that it could be considered such, at least with a loose definition of theocracy, like the author does for Communism? ****Colin Davies wrote: If Slavery was so bad, why was it not written a bit harder into the constitution. Finally, something I just learned this year! ;P Well, slavery wasn't written in the Constitution as such because if it was abolished from the start, there would be no Constitution, i.e. it would not have been ratified, which was an unacceptable situation, because all the colonies were needed to participate in this forming of the United States. I assume you can see my logic here, i.e. if several of the southern colonies formed their own government, conflicts result, etc. And of course the rich white males who formed the Constitution did not have very strong personal convictions on the matter, as it didn't negatively affect any of them, and many of them owned/used slaves. So they weren't all that eager to lose that privelege, even if some/many of them may have had very negative opinons towards it. ****Colin Davies wrote: The Northern states wanted to have economic power over the sothern states and thus wanted to terminate slavery. So the Southern States wished to become independant which the North wouldn't allow. Truly a horrible war but the politics behind it were far more than just the abolition of slavery on humnaitarian grounds I agree. I guess I don't really see this as contradicting the article, but you definitely have a very good point. Although I do believe that the North was justified in not allowing the South's seperation, for the same reasons of unity outlined above. Perhaps such a terrible war wasn't justified for these reasons, but in retrospect it was justified to avoid having another powerful nation like the U.S. with a political structure based upon the south's ideals (of course slavery, but also a