Benefits of atheism

Christian Graus

One problem many churches goers have is that they all speak the same language, it makes sense to those in their group, and they have no idea how they come across outside their own clique.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

Lost User

Perhaps include these ... Massacre of American Indians by the US Cavalry. Communist revolutions in Russia and China. Japanese Feudal Systems. And the many imperial conquests around the globe.

Christian Graus

Well, it becomes more and more tenuous, in terms of implicating the church, but yes, there is still plenty more to go, and the point was made with the three I listed. One is enough to prove the church has not been perfect through the ages.

Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )

Ilion

I didn't twist what you said. I took exactly what you said and I disputed it because exactly what you said is so blatantly false. That you were not paying attention is nothing *I* can do anything about.

Lost User

People, peoples, religion, and nations, not just "the Church". Anyhow, I'm off to bed. Its 1.30am where I am

John Carson

Christian Graus wrote:

Are you serious ?

Yes.

Christian Graus wrote:

I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always.

If you kept reading, you would see that I discuss a range of Christian positions.

Christian Graus wrote:

That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.

Indeed it isn't always a good thing. But presumably the writer of the piece didn't think that (s)he personally was likely to go off the deep end inventing a destructive morality, and presumably thought that most others weren't likely to do so either. In any case, serial killers aren't serial killers because, after deep philosophical reflection, they decided that killing people represented a higher ethic. They are driven by a psychopathology --- generally either something chemical in their brain or the result of horrendous mistreatment.

Christian Graus wrote:

In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says.

Indeed, and I acknowledged that in my comments. However, they are not being "good Christians" when they behave this way. Moreover, it is clearly the case that many Christians are constrained in their behaviour and in their opinions by their belief that they should follow what the Bible says. This is easier to do, incidentally, when it comes to making declarations about how others should behave than when modifying one's own personal behaviour.

John Carson

Ilion

"Dude, don't you see how santimonious this sounds ?" 'Sanctimonious' is meaningless if reality is as the 'atheists' want it to be. And it's pointless to be overly concerned about how people freely choose to misunderstand things clearly said. "It bugs me that Christians can have their own language, which will always turn people off and benefit no-one but the person who feels good for saying what they believe is right." I agree, far too many Christians are speaking "Christian-ese."

Lost User

Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:

I'll let you in on a secret: I am not eternal.

SAY IT AIN'T SO, JOERGEN! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!! :-D

- F "You are really weird." - Kyle, age 16

Christian Graus

John Carson wrote:

Yes

OK, let's look at this list: 1. As an atheist, I am free of supernatural fear. Dying holds no great terror. Poor Christians are in constant dread of eternal torment or eternal boredom micromanaged like sheep for all eternity. Watch them panic at the very idea of death. They can't even say the word "die". They say "he passed on" or "he is resting in peace" or "he went to meet his maker" or "he is in a better place". Christians paint corpses to help create the illusion they are not really dead, just resting like some Norwegian Blue parrot, pining for the fjords. This is actually patently false. Christans, more than anyone else, have no fear of death, because they believe they will live agan. Duh. 2. I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. I am not compelled by the notions of ignorant folk who lived in the bronze age. I need not fear punishment from some sky god if my choices don't match those of the priests. No-one is free to make their own moral choices, as I said above 3. I am free to donate my money to charities that actually do good works rather than to a church that spends it on nebulous "godly" purposes such as gilt for the Vatican or fine embroidery for priestly robes. This is just plain dumb. I actually tried to find a non Christian charity when I wanted to sponsor a third world child, and I could not find one. I now sponsor through World Vision. If there's one thing Christians do well, it's charity. 4. If I should be in extreme pain at the end of my life, I can prematurely terminate my life without fear of some hideous reprisal. I guess a lot of this list is based on Catholicism, which is very different to Christianity. This is a case in point. 5. I am free to inquire into any aspect or reality or science, and to make up my own mind on what is most likely true, and to change my mind. I am free to do that, also. 6. I am free to enjoy any sexual activity I please that does not harm others without fear of some cosmic meat axe. I am also free to do this. 7. I don't have the strain of pretending to believe lies and unsupported articles of faith. I can be completely truthful. I speak for myself. I don't have to pretend I that agree totally with some ancient, obsolete, rigid system of beliefs. I certainly do this. 8. When something goes wrong, I don't torment myself with the erroneous notion god is out to get me. I look at the r

brianwelsch

Since atheism involves the rejection of all religions, why only attack Christians?

BW

Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.
-- Neil Peart

Ilion

"If avoiding pain is a reason to end it all - end it all." Really. Even in the best of circumstances, life generally gets "worse" as one ages. But, if one happens to be a European Infidel at this particular time in history, it very much looks as though life will soon be "worse" no matter what one's age. Wouldn't it be so much "better" to make the "rational" decision right now?

Tim Craig

Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:

You ought to change your name to Red Herring.

How about baboon's ass? Aren't those red? Or is that too obtuse? :laugh:

The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.

Tim Craig

Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:

Charles Manson makes more sense

I miss Charlie since they moved him to Pelican Bay. :( I used to wave to him when I drove past Q to or from the wine country.

The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.

Lost User

But the church is led by the pope; and he is never wrong (papal infallibility).

-------- Micrologic Networks, India

Tim Craig

Christian Graus wrote:

Morality is defined by society, more than the individual, and enforced by society when an individual strays to far from the accepted norm.

Society's role is ethics not morality. How does society deal with the fact that morality is individual and is going to vary? This is why one group's morality can't be enshrined in law. Law needs to be the least common denominator as to what is reasonable behavior.

The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.

Tim Craig

Christian Graus wrote:

Most of this is obviously meant in jest, and has no basis in reality.

I'm not laughing.

The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.

Ilion

For starters, we won't saw their heads off with a rusty butter knife. But mostly, 'atheists' care only about Christianity (and to a lesser extent, Judaism). It's Biblical religion which gives 'atheists' the cold sweats. Islam has only the power to kill their bodies; Christ has the power to give them Life. Isn't it *obvious* which is the more dangerous?

Gary Kirkham

I have no fear of death, nor do any Christians that I know. 2) You can make up your own mind, but you will find that you are not free to exercise your morals as your choose regardless of any belief in a "higher power." 3) I am free to give to whatever charity I please, and do. 4) Romans 8:1 5) I work in science and engineering and haven't noted any restrictions 6) "that does not harm others" Why are you restricting your own freedom? Just go for it! 7) I don't pretend, I honestly believe what I believe...my choice 8) God is not out to get me. I also don't worry about my circumstances. 9) Sacrifices went out 2000 years ago. Prayer works. Only ceremony I ever remember going to was my wedding. 10) Pretty silly statement 11) I have friends. Why would you assume that athiests somehow have the market cornered on friendship? 12) How do you know that you don't? I suspect that I take the same care to protect my children that you do. 13) I have no pride in my ignorance or my knowledge and I don't feel compelled to hang out with those who do.

Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read

John Carson

As a general response, you seem to think that the test here is whether the item applies to you or conforms to your understanding of what Christianity is. I am sure the author didn't construct the list on that basis. Probably, the author observed characteristics (s)he believed were present in significant numbers of people claiming to be Christians (not necessarily even a majority for some of the items) and was pleased to declare him/herself free of all of them. If so, the item is justified in term's of the author's intent if there are significant numbers of people claiming to be Christians who exhibit the behaviour described in the item. Of course the list is one-sided. I would hope that the author wouldn't pretend otherwise. Below, I will sometime just write GR (for "general response") if I think your comments on an item are clearly based on interpreting it as describing you or your preferred interpretation of Christianity.

Christian Graus wrote:

1. As an atheist, I am free of supernatural fear. Dying holds no great terror. Poor Christians are in constant dread of eternal torment or eternal boredom micromanaged like sheep for all eternity. Watch them panic at the very idea of death. They can't even say the word "die". They say "he passed on" or "he is resting in peace" or "he went to meet his maker" or "he is in a better place". Christians paint corpses to help create the illusion they are not really dead, just resting like some Norwegian Blue parrot, pining for the fjords. This is actually patently false. Christans, more than anyone else, have no fear of death, because they believe they will live agan.

It is an exaggeration and one-sided but not patently false. Lots of people who believe in God are not confident of their salvation. It is well known that many of the people who go forward at Billy Graham crusades to "receive Christ as their saviour" are long time believers in God. Some people even go forward at multiple crusades because they never feel "saved" so it is an ongoing issue. Catholics always have a thing about committing mortal sins that could exclude them from heaven (yeah, I know you don't think Catholics are Christians, but we are talking about religion in general). Actually, I knew an old lady who spent the last years of her life in considerable distress over the issue (declining mental powers no doubt played a role, but the whole religious environment meant she was ripe for such a reaction). Fear of hell is less of an i

John Carson

Ilíon wrote:

Really. Even in the best of circumstances, life generally gets "worse" as one ages. But, if one happens to be a European Infidel at this particular time in history, it very much looks as though life will soon be "worse" no matter what one's age. Wouldn't it be so much "better" to make the "rational" decision right now?

About as rational as putting on extra clothing now in the expectation that it will get cold tomorrow.

John Carson