Qu on Guberment and God...
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Not exactly the response I was expecting but it is thoughtful. Shog9 wrote: God (through the Bible) does teach that government be respected and obeyed, to the extent that doing so does not conflict with God's own law. So this doesn't excuse the American revolution ? Shog9 wrote: I am deeply suspicious of many people who choose this as their career for instance. I guess you are talking about politicians, Shog9 wrote: God does not inspire me to have a government. The instructions givin in the OT are very different from those in the NT, so this leads me to some confusion. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
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****Colin Davies wrote: So this doesn't excuse the American revolution ? No. It does not. This is a wonderful country; i am very grateful to have been born here. BUT, some of the propaganda makes me very sad. To say that history would have been "better" had events taken a different course is a dangerous road to travel, but it is still useful to consider what has happened: The American Revolution was fomented to a large degree by men who, whatever their good qualities, had much to gain from it. Taxation without representation, although not a good thing, had at least some justification in this case, and arguing that it was worth the loss of life and livelyhood sustained by many (those who fought and died on both sides, and those who were not supporters and were driven into exile) is more than a little arrogant. True freedom is anarchy; true freedom is freedom to die. We neither have nor want this. It is also worth noting that Canada gained independance without a revolution. Still walking that slippery edge, i wish also to mention that the US had to endure an incredibly bloody civil war, the scars of which mar the country to this day, before slavery was abolished. A (relatively) peaceful action of parlement made slavery illegal throughout the British empire. This does not even touch on the likely effects that justifying such violence to each successive generation has had on the public's perception of violence as a solution to life's problems. IMO, there is much good that has come out of the American Revolution; but who can say how much evil has also resulted? To "play god" can mean many things. ****Colin Davies wrote: I guess you are talking about politicians Good guess :) It bothers me that these people will, as a rule, jump from office to office, treating each position merely as stepping stones to one with more power. If i spent the greater part of my time at work applying for jobs elsewhere, i would quickly be fired. Yet we tolerate encourage this with those who are meant to be serving the public. ****Colin Davies wrote: The instructions givin in the OT are very different from those in the NT, so this leads me to some confusion. In the OT, the religion was the government. God punished the Israelites' rebelious request for a king by giving the
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A question to believers of God. What type and form of goverment does God inspire you to have and why ? If you are an atheist or liberal please ignore this thread. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
That's easy - a theocracy. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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****Colin Davies wrote: So this doesn't excuse the American revolution ? No. It does not. This is a wonderful country; i am very grateful to have been born here. BUT, some of the propaganda makes me very sad. To say that history would have been "better" had events taken a different course is a dangerous road to travel, but it is still useful to consider what has happened: The American Revolution was fomented to a large degree by men who, whatever their good qualities, had much to gain from it. Taxation without representation, although not a good thing, had at least some justification in this case, and arguing that it was worth the loss of life and livelyhood sustained by many (those who fought and died on both sides, and those who were not supporters and were driven into exile) is more than a little arrogant. True freedom is anarchy; true freedom is freedom to die. We neither have nor want this. It is also worth noting that Canada gained independance without a revolution. Still walking that slippery edge, i wish also to mention that the US had to endure an incredibly bloody civil war, the scars of which mar the country to this day, before slavery was abolished. A (relatively) peaceful action of parlement made slavery illegal throughout the British empire. This does not even touch on the likely effects that justifying such violence to each successive generation has had on the public's perception of violence as a solution to life's problems. IMO, there is much good that has come out of the American Revolution; but who can say how much evil has also resulted? To "play god" can mean many things. ****Colin Davies wrote: I guess you are talking about politicians Good guess :) It bothers me that these people will, as a rule, jump from office to office, treating each position merely as stepping stones to one with more power. If i spent the greater part of my time at work applying for jobs elsewhere, i would quickly be fired. Yet we tolerate encourage this with those who are meant to be serving the public. ****Colin Davies wrote: The instructions givin in the OT are very different from those in the NT, so this leads me to some confusion. In the OT, the religion was the government. God punished the Israelites' rebelious request for a king by giving the
Shog9 wrote: True freedom is anarchy; true freedom is freedom to die. It is amazing how few people realize this. We only have notions of freedom. Shog9 wrote: It is also worth noting that Canada gained independance without a revolution. In some ways the US paved the way for other colonies to gain independence. Shog9 wrote: This does not even touch on the likely effects that justifying such violence to each successive generation has had on the public's perception of violence as a solution to life's problems. Yes, It is still well displayed in the US society, that violence is an acceptable method of achieving a result. Many in the world still underestimate the US's appetite for violence. Shog9 wrote: there is much good that has come out of the American Revolution Some of Americas history in its founding have become obscure facts now. And IMHO school kids etc are taught the history of the victor, which is a common practice. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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That's easy - a theocracy. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: That's easy - a theocracy. There are still a couple of Theocracies and Pseudo Theocracies floating around, But they don't seem to be becoming popular, quite possibly they are not well founded. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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Shog9 wrote: True freedom is anarchy; true freedom is freedom to die. It is amazing how few people realize this. We only have notions of freedom. Shog9 wrote: It is also worth noting that Canada gained independance without a revolution. In some ways the US paved the way for other colonies to gain independence. Shog9 wrote: This does not even touch on the likely effects that justifying such violence to each successive generation has had on the public's perception of violence as a solution to life's problems. Yes, It is still well displayed in the US society, that violence is an acceptable method of achieving a result. Many in the world still underestimate the US's appetite for violence. Shog9 wrote: there is much good that has come out of the American Revolution Some of Americas history in its founding have become obscure facts now. And IMHO school kids etc are taught the history of the victor, which is a common practice. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
****Colin Davies wrote: In some ways the US paved the way for other colonies to gain independence. Quite true. As i said, it is impossible to say what could have happened... ****Colin Davies wrote: Many in the world still underestimate the US's appetite for violence. ****Colin Davies wrote: And IMHO school kids etc are taught the history of the victor, which is a common practice. It is; so we become familar with the mistakes of the losing side, but tend to forget the mistakes made by the winner. A violent winner will teach the infallibility of violence. Violence then breeds more violence. --------
I am not a connoisseur.
--Shog9 --
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Christian Graus wrote: That's easy - a theocracy. There are still a couple of Theocracies and Pseudo Theocracies floating around, But they don't seem to be becoming popular, quite possibly they are not well founded. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
Although a descendant of David is still on the throne, the fact is that no country has ever been a theocracy, except Israel briefly. There is only one God, so any supposed theocracy not under Him is simply not one. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: There is only one God, so any supposed theocracy not under Him is simply not one. True, but only when God wants will he rule, until that time we can only prepare. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
Also true - but as Christians, that is the government we desire, and prepare for. The poor second choice is democracy, so that we are free to practice our religion. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Although a descendant of David is still on the throne, the fact is that no country has ever been a theocracy, except Israel briefly. There is only one God, so any supposed theocracy not under Him is simply not one. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: There is only one God, so any supposed theocracy not under Him is simply not one. True, but only when God wants will he rule, until that time we can only prepare. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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****Colin Davies wrote: In some ways the US paved the way for other colonies to gain independence. Quite true. As i said, it is impossible to say what could have happened... ****Colin Davies wrote: Many in the world still underestimate the US's appetite for violence. ****Colin Davies wrote: And IMHO school kids etc are taught the history of the victor, which is a common practice. It is; so we become familar with the mistakes of the losing side, but tend to forget the mistakes made by the winner. A violent winner will teach the infallibility of violence. Violence then breeds more violence. --------
I am not a connoisseur.
--Shog9 --
Shog9 wrote: so we become familar with the mistakes of the losing side, but tend to forget the mistakes made by the winner. A violent winner will teach the infallibility of violence. Violence then breeds more violence. Well written. :-) However by examining history we can learn from our mistakes, and by hiding the mistakes of the past we can influence the future. It is unlikly that the US will break its cycle of violence for sometime IMHO as it has become ingrained in the culture. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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A question to believers of God. What type and form of goverment does God inspire you to have and why ? If you are an atheist or liberal please ignore this thread. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
[Humour] What does God have to with goverment? Apart from they both promise a lot but never seem to deliver. Both are rarely seen to do anything, however Goverments are quick to take credit for God's work but even quicker to blame him when things go wrong. (Disasters like Earthquakes, floods are all acts of god, not insufficent investment by goverment in proper housing and safety precautions) Michael :-) Communication is the first step towards enlightenment.
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A question to believers of God. What type and form of goverment does God inspire you to have and why ? If you are an atheist or liberal please ignore this thread. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
I believe in God but I have no idea what kinda of government I want. Actually I probably could go on a big long speil here now but I do't think my brain is up to it.
"Isn't that the "write once, debug everywhere" language?" Tom Archer on Java... :)
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A question to believers of God. What type and form of goverment does God inspire you to have and why ? If you are an atheist or liberal please ignore this thread. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
Basically something very similar to what the USA has. What was unique about the founding of the USA was the belief that some individual rights came from a higher authority. Before that any rights including the right to life itself was given by the government to the people. To be conscious that you are ignorant of the facts is a great step towards Knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli
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Basically something very similar to what the USA has. What was unique about the founding of the USA was the belief that some individual rights came from a higher authority. Before that any rights including the right to life itself was given by the government to the people. To be conscious that you are ignorant of the facts is a great step towards Knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli
Do you mean what it has now, or what it had hundreds of years ago ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Do you mean what it has now, or what it had hundreds of years ago ? Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
I meant the basis of the founding of the government. Yes it has been heavily perverted, but some good changes have also been made. Compared to governments founded on atheism or cults I still prefer what I have. To be conscious that you are ignorant of the facts is a great step towards Knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli
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Basically something very similar to what the USA has. What was unique about the founding of the USA was the belief that some individual rights came from a higher authority. Before that any rights including the right to life itself was given by the government to the people. To be conscious that you are ignorant of the facts is a great step towards Knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli
Please take this as argumentitive but not obusive. :-) The USA is deist but not theist. The Declaration of Independence referred to the natural God but the Constitution did not. Thus it is quite likly that the USA is not in the Covenant of Nations. This has been reinforced by the Misinterpretations of the first Ammendments intentions. Also I refer you to the oft forgotten Treaty of Tripolli. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Basically something very similar to what the USA has. I believe there have been several moves to correct what I mentioned above but, they never materialised. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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Please take this as argumentitive but not obusive. :-) The USA is deist but not theist. The Declaration of Independence referred to the natural God but the Constitution did not. Thus it is quite likly that the USA is not in the Covenant of Nations. This has been reinforced by the Misinterpretations of the first Ammendments intentions. Also I refer you to the oft forgotten Treaty of Tripolli. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Basically something very similar to what the USA has. I believe there have been several moves to correct what I mentioned above but, they never materialised. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
No offense taken. The treaty of Tripolli just reinforces what Jefferson had written on speration of church and state. The state is not an extension of the (a) religion and allows all religions (originially). As you state the declarion does state the the belief in rights granted not by the state to individuals but by a higher authority. The USA was founded on those Christian principles which did not exist prior to that time. I am not make any statement on what the people then did. To be conscious that you are ignorant of the facts is a great step towards Knowledge. Benjamin Disraeli