Immigration Amendment Would Prevent Companies From Laying Off U.S. Workers
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
there are thousands of good programmers stocking shelves in Home Depot and your local chain grocery stores.
Hey Mike, I know 3-4 guys who got H1B jobs this year - two of them in Microsoft. All of them started off at very good salaries. So I am not all that sure that the reason American born programmers are unemployed is because they demand more pay. The H1Bers who are paid low wages are those who directly work for an Indian company that sends them on-site for temporary assignments. The rest of the H1Bers who get regular jobs usually make way more than the average salary for their field and experience.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
So I am not all that sure that the reason American born programmers are unemployed is because they demand more pay.
Nish, It is a mixed bag, I really don't mean to make it sound black and white. The examples I gave are accurate. Dell layed off thousands and turned around and made a request for additional H1Bers. IBM, ditto. EDS, ditto. Accenture, ditto. My own company does the same or similar. We have a group in New Delhi, Indore and another city that I can't call to mind. Also have a South African group. With all of these entities we've also had huge layoffs here and ramp ups "there". We staff an awful lot of our projects with a mix of pure offshore, H1Bers here and what I now refer to as domestics. The offshore and H1Bers all take "American" jobs. Our business in my division is roughly the same from a headcount or number of projects perspective but our "billable engine" is now 75% offshore / H1B and 25% domestic where in the year 2000 it was 100% domestic. So far all I have discussed are IT types, people like you and me. But H1B is now intruding on the medical field (doctors and nurses) and even teachers. The point of the amendment that I pimp-slapped Red on was one by an independent (who I really do not like, too liberal to suit me) that aimed to provide some level of protection (and I hate this concept, generally) for US professionals by saying that if a company layed off staff then turned around to replace them with H1B visa holders, they couldn't. You really have to look at both sides of the issue. On the one hand, take your native land, India. India had decided that intellectual capital is a fantastic resource, so there's been a huge push to educate your brightest then export them (either via a communictation connection or an airline). So what you really have is a government with some level of dedication to the betterment of its' population. On the other hand, take the USA. We're a capitalistic society (run amuck, possibly) that is focused on increasing margins (profit) at the expense of US workers with very little real concern for the working citizen - the exact opposite of the situation I just described for your native land. The Bernie Sanders amendment that I referred to is a step towards protection for our own professionals. In some measure these circumstances are self correcting. I've been involved with offshore teams, specifically India based, since 2000. Some on a shor
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
So I am not all that sure that the reason American born programmers are unemployed is because they demand more pay.
Nish, It is a mixed bag, I really don't mean to make it sound black and white. The examples I gave are accurate. Dell layed off thousands and turned around and made a request for additional H1Bers. IBM, ditto. EDS, ditto. Accenture, ditto. My own company does the same or similar. We have a group in New Delhi, Indore and another city that I can't call to mind. Also have a South African group. With all of these entities we've also had huge layoffs here and ramp ups "there". We staff an awful lot of our projects with a mix of pure offshore, H1Bers here and what I now refer to as domestics. The offshore and H1Bers all take "American" jobs. Our business in my division is roughly the same from a headcount or number of projects perspective but our "billable engine" is now 75% offshore / H1B and 25% domestic where in the year 2000 it was 100% domestic. So far all I have discussed are IT types, people like you and me. But H1B is now intruding on the medical field (doctors and nurses) and even teachers. The point of the amendment that I pimp-slapped Red on was one by an independent (who I really do not like, too liberal to suit me) that aimed to provide some level of protection (and I hate this concept, generally) for US professionals by saying that if a company layed off staff then turned around to replace them with H1B visa holders, they couldn't. You really have to look at both sides of the issue. On the one hand, take your native land, India. India had decided that intellectual capital is a fantastic resource, so there's been a huge push to educate your brightest then export them (either via a communictation connection or an airline). So what you really have is a government with some level of dedication to the betterment of its' population. On the other hand, take the USA. We're a capitalistic society (run amuck, possibly) that is focused on increasing margins (profit) at the expense of US workers with very little real concern for the working citizen - the exact opposite of the situation I just described for your native land. The Bernie Sanders amendment that I referred to is a step towards protection for our own professionals. In some measure these circumstances are self correcting. I've been involved with offshore teams, specifically India based, since 2000. Some on a shor
Wow - thanks, Mike. I read your post twice. It really put things in a much better perspective for me :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
The UKIP (acronym for UK Independence Party) are not evil. They have, in my opinion, misguided policies towards Europe that is likely to cause mass economic suffering to UK business interests and wholesale loss of political influence in Europe. The probability of UKIP success is tiny. Of course, UKIP members will disagree with me, but that is their right.
The probability of a referendum to return the EU to a free trade area succeeding however are rather high. Which is precisely why we will never have one.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
there are thousands of good programmers stocking shelves in Home Depot and your local chain grocery stores.
Hey Mike, I know 3-4 guys who got H1B jobs this year - two of them in Microsoft. All of them started off at very good salaries. So I am not all that sure that the reason American born programmers are unemployed is because they demand more pay. The H1Bers who are paid low wages are those who directly work for an Indian company that sends them on-site for temporary assignments. The rest of the H1Bers who get regular jobs usually make way more than the average salary for their field and experience.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
So I am not all that sure that the reason American born programmers are unemployed is because they demand more pay.
The entire idea that American born programmers are heavily unemployed is a myth. Here's an article[^] from 3 years ago citing the US unemployment rate for computer professionals at 5% (that rate has since sharply declined since) at a time when the tech industry was still limping from the .com-bust and the overall unemployment was 6% . In the lounge there are frequently threads posted by people frustrated by their inability to hire quality people and ads running for many months. Oddly enough, everyone here complaining about the dire situation of computer professionals seems to be gainfully employed.
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I don't disagree with any of that, but I do have a different take on it. One of the most repetitive themes of human civilization is the inevitability of rapid political revolution following long periods of slow economic evolution. All of human history has really been nothing more than political accomodation of changing economic realities. Tribes into city states, city states into nation states, nation states into empires, etc. They were all just a means of gaining control of economics. We now have a global economy, and a global polticial system is going to inevitably rise to control it. The only thing that can stop it is a complete collapse of human civilization altogether. There is no amount of democracy that we could practically hope to muster that has the power to change the inevitability of what is about to happen. The question isn't how do you stop it, the question is what will the nature of the ultimate global political system that arises be? Which culture, which civilization, which set of political principles will remain standing once the dust clears? That is the question.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
I'm sorry but I consider that a defeatist attitude. If you've given up on democracy and given up on your country and your constitution in the long term then you'd better come up with something better to replace them with than the plans of Voelker, Kissenger, Bilt and Rockerfeller :suss: or we're all going to end up in a global, facist, slave state. X| You'd better come up with it soon as well because they're not mucking around. If you've given up you're already defeated and ripe to be enslaved :(. Personally I'd rather die, which is an option I'm sure they'll give most people sooner or later. Meanwhile I'm going to fight for real freedom, not the Orwellian nightmare of fear and suspicion the Shubbery and our Bliar have been selling :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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I'm sorry but I consider that a defeatist attitude. If you've given up on democracy and given up on your country and your constitution in the long term then you'd better come up with something better to replace them with than the plans of Voelker, Kissenger, Bilt and Rockerfeller :suss: or we're all going to end up in a global, facist, slave state. X| You'd better come up with it soon as well because they're not mucking around. If you've given up you're already defeated and ripe to be enslaved :(. Personally I'd rather die, which is an option I'm sure they'll give most people sooner or later. Meanwhile I'm going to fight for real freedom, not the Orwellian nightmare of fear and suspicion the Shubbery and our Bliar have been selling :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I'm sorry but I consider that a defeatist attitude.
Nothing defeatest about it. Merely a pragmatic observation of likely future events based upon clear historic patterns reflected in ongoing, modern trends. I also said nothing about giving up on democracy. I just claim that democracy, by iteslf, is insufficient to win the day against forces which care nothing for it. If democracy is going to be protected ,it will be done on the battlefield, not the voting booth. Aside from "No world Order" the "New World Order" is inevitable, but its character is not. It will reflect the desires most passionantly embraced by humanity. If the character is to be democratic, we must fiercly promote our uncompromising dedication to those principles regardless of who is offended by it.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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The UKIP (acronym for UK Independence Party) are not evil. They have, in my opinion, misguided policies towards Europe that is likely to cause mass economic suffering to UK business interests and wholesale loss of political influence in Europe. The probability of UKIP success is tiny. Of course, UKIP members will disagree with me, but that is their right.
As a Kipper I'd say neither narrow nor misguided, more like dedicated and clear in our thinking. We're democrats and the EU isn't democratic so we don't like it. We believe in freedom and the Eurocrats want to regulate everything down to the shape of a tomato so we don't like it. We're culturists who believe it's fine for the French to be French and the Germans to be German, within reason ;), and any attempt to create a lowest common denominator Euro culture is destructive and doomed to failure, so guess what, we don't like that sort of nonsense or mass immigration either. All just good common sense stuff :cool: and then there are all the things we do like, individual freedoms, maximally localised government, all the great works and traditions of our once vibrant culture, honesty and plain speeking, energy independence, security independence and all the other independences of mind and action that we keep being told are a pipe dream but are in fact only just out of reach :-D Probability of success in the short term is no measure of whether or not we are right. In the end the European project is gaurenteed to fail because it is fundamentally unstable and economically suicidal. Anyone who can see this wants to be as far away from it when it collapses as possible. So in fact our eventual success, it terms of getting out, is assured. We'd just rather not make the stupid mistake of getting involved any worse before people realise what many of us having been saying for years.;)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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As a Kipper I'd say neither narrow nor misguided, more like dedicated and clear in our thinking. We're democrats and the EU isn't democratic so we don't like it. We believe in freedom and the Eurocrats want to regulate everything down to the shape of a tomato so we don't like it. We're culturists who believe it's fine for the French to be French and the Germans to be German, within reason ;), and any attempt to create a lowest common denominator Euro culture is destructive and doomed to failure, so guess what, we don't like that sort of nonsense or mass immigration either. All just good common sense stuff :cool: and then there are all the things we do like, individual freedoms, maximally localised government, all the great works and traditions of our once vibrant culture, honesty and plain speeking, energy independence, security independence and all the other independences of mind and action that we keep being told are a pipe dream but are in fact only just out of reach :-D Probability of success in the short term is no measure of whether or not we are right. In the end the European project is gaurenteed to fail because it is fundamentally unstable and economically suicidal. Anyone who can see this wants to be as far away from it when it collapses as possible. So in fact our eventual success, it terms of getting out, is assured. We'd just rather not make the stupid mistake of getting involved any worse before people realise what many of us having been saying for years.;)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
All just good common sense stuff and then there are all the things we do like, individual freedoms, maximally localised government, all the great works and traditions of our once vibrant culture, honesty and plain speeking, energy independence, security independence and all the other independences of mind and action that we keep being told are a pipe dream but are in fact only just out of reach
With these results [^] the dream will just remain a dream, after all the UKIP performance at the last General Election was below 2.5%. So maybe the UKIP don't speak for the majority of people as claimed here [^]. So presumably from this [^] you don't approve of devolving power to local parliamentary authorities. Maybe it's the freedom UKIP want but deny to Scotland as a whole.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
All just good common sense stuff and then there are all the things we do like, individual freedoms, maximally localised government, all the great works and traditions of our once vibrant culture, honesty and plain speeking, energy independence, security independence and all the other independences of mind and action that we keep being told are a pipe dream but are in fact only just out of reach
With these results [^] the dream will just remain a dream, after all the UKIP performance at the last General Election was below 2.5%. So maybe the UKIP don't speak for the majority of people as claimed here [^]. So presumably from this [^] you don't approve of devolving power to local parliamentary authorities. Maybe it's the freedom UKIP want but deny to Scotland as a whole.
I guess you just missed what I said about lack of short term propects and missed the manifesto point Give councils "majority" control over finances. in the article about the Scottish Parliamentary elections. Yes the majority of people do agree with us. When polls of policies, with no party name attached, are conducted we have won in every case I've seen for the past 5 years. People want what we want because we want them to be free to decide. On the Scotland point it is incredibly ironic that the SNP, which has just won the election, isn't offering independence at all but total subjugation by the EU, while UKIP, the most unionist of unionist parties ouside of NI is actually offering the people of Scotland a real say over their lives and less bureaucrats and MSPs to mess it up. We would have Scotland specific parliamentary time at Westminster where Scottish MPs only would debate Scottish matters and make binding decisions. These would be held in parallel with English, Welsh and NI sessions. One country, one set of elected representatives, and minimum fuss. No West Lothian problem, no problem having a Scottish or a Welsh PM :cool: You see common sense really does work when there are no hidden agendas like a European super state clouding the issues and biasing the debates.:-D
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Red Stateler wrote:
unemployment rate currently hovering around 2% for college graduates
you're way off base. there are thousands of good programmers stocking shelves in Home Depot and your local chain grocery stores. and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Legislation that promotes hiring foreigners to fill US jobs works great too. Ask anyone restructured from an IT job in the last decade. Patching this bill with this Ammendment only adds insult to injury. They don't enforce the present H12-B restrictions, why should we thing they'd enforce these new ones? This is just a scam to make it seem like lifting the H1-B limits will be just hunky-dory. We need to throw all of these idiots (statring with Kennedy, McCain, and Kyl) out of office.
I have been told time and again to behave more like the visa employees. They don't question things for one. They'll get rid of an American that stands up for themselves and take a foreign visa worker that won't question anything because they need the American dollars to take back to their country after a few years of collecting it.
This statement was never false.
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
So I am not all that sure that the reason American born programmers are unemployed is because they demand more pay.
The entire idea that American born programmers are heavily unemployed is a myth. Here's an article[^] from 3 years ago citing the US unemployment rate for computer professionals at 5% (that rate has since sharply declined since) at a time when the tech industry was still limping from the .com-bust and the overall unemployment was 6% . In the lounge there are frequently threads posted by people frustrated by their inability to hire quality people and ads running for many months. Oddly enough, everyone here complaining about the dire situation of computer professionals seems to be gainfully employed.
Red Stateler wrote:
The entire idea that American born programmers are heavily unemployed is a myth
Red - you have no fucking idea what you're talking about, period.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I guess you just missed what I said about lack of short term propects and missed the manifesto point Give councils "majority" control over finances. in the article about the Scottish Parliamentary elections. Yes the majority of people do agree with us. When polls of policies, with no party name attached, are conducted we have won in every case I've seen for the past 5 years. People want what we want because we want them to be free to decide. On the Scotland point it is incredibly ironic that the SNP, which has just won the election, isn't offering independence at all but total subjugation by the EU, while UKIP, the most unionist of unionist parties ouside of NI is actually offering the people of Scotland a real say over their lives and less bureaucrats and MSPs to mess it up. We would have Scotland specific parliamentary time at Westminster where Scottish MPs only would debate Scottish matters and make binding decisions. These would be held in parallel with English, Welsh and NI sessions. One country, one set of elected representatives, and minimum fuss. No West Lothian problem, no problem having a Scottish or a Welsh PM :cool: You see common sense really does work when there are no hidden agendas like a European super state clouding the issues and biasing the debates.:-D
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I'm sorry but I consider that a defeatist attitude.
Nothing defeatest about it. Merely a pragmatic observation of likely future events based upon clear historic patterns reflected in ongoing, modern trends. I also said nothing about giving up on democracy. I just claim that democracy, by iteslf, is insufficient to win the day against forces which care nothing for it. If democracy is going to be protected ,it will be done on the battlefield, not the voting booth. Aside from "No world Order" the "New World Order" is inevitable, but its character is not. It will reflect the desires most passionantly embraced by humanity. If the character is to be democratic, we must fiercly promote our uncompromising dedication to those principles regardless of who is offended by it.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
we must fiercly promote our uncompromising dedication to those principles regardless of who is offended by it
I have done so and stood for election on a promise to do so.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If democracy is going to be protected ,it will be done on the battlefield
No, beacuse those who oppose democracy are smart enough to use economic and social weapons, credit and media ownership, and they won't risk a physical fight. Hence the big split over Iraq when the neo-con splinter group lost patience and decided to start a war. They will be put down for that, which is already happening in the US and UK, and it will be money and media used to do it.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Aside from "No world Order" the "New World Order" is inevitable, but its character is not. It will reflect the desires most passionantly embraced by humanity.
I'm not sure if that was meant to be ironic but yes, it's character will reflect the desires most passionantly embraced by its architects; selfishness, greed, the lust for power over others and the fear of loosing it. That's the problem. We badly need an alternative model to what is being sicked on us one step at a time. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Red Stateler wrote:
Or something.
Anti-Globalist.