More proof of God
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That's just patently untrue. Sure, religion is often used to create power and control people, but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ? I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Because the tennet of my religion is that those who wish to seek should be welcome, rather going out and "harvesting". ;P And, btw, where does this "to know about something good" come from? That's an interesting assumption. Knowing spiritual truth does not necessarily fall into the "good" category. I tend to have the "oh shit, I'm doomed" reaction. Marc
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Christian Graus wrote:
I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Because the tennet of my religion is that those who wish to seek should be welcome, rather going out and "harvesting". ;P And, btw, where does this "to know about something good" come from? That's an interesting assumption. Knowing spiritual truth does not necessarily fall into the "good" category. I tend to have the "oh shit, I'm doomed" reaction. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
those who wish to seek should be welcome
Do you mean 'seek and ye shall find' ?
Marc Clifton wrote:
rather going out and "harvesting
As in 'the fields are white for harvest' ?
Marc Clifton wrote:
That's an interesting assumption.
I see you're toying with me, but obviously pretty much any religion preaches that what they believe is worth knowing, and yields a positive result for the believer. I'm obviously a Christian ( that is, I've made that clear before ), but my comments in this instance are not meant to reflect that, just a general observation of the nature of religion itself, and the possible motives someone could have for telling you about theirs.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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That's just patently untrue. Sure, religion is often used to create power and control people, but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ? I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
That's just patently untrue. Sure, religion is often used to create power and control people, but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ? I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
I agree with you. Trying to convince others of your beliefs, when you have found them helful, is perfectly natural. More generally, discussions and debates about religion, human origins, ethics and all the rest of it are a normal expression of our humanity; life would be much poorer without them. People who want to live in a bubble, sealed off from hearing any opinions they might not agree with, have a real problem.
John Carson
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Marc Clifton wrote:
those who wish to seek should be welcome
Do you mean 'seek and ye shall find' ?
Marc Clifton wrote:
rather going out and "harvesting
As in 'the fields are white for harvest' ?
Marc Clifton wrote:
That's an interesting assumption.
I see you're toying with me, but obviously pretty much any religion preaches that what they believe is worth knowing, and yields a positive result for the believer. I'm obviously a Christian ( that is, I've made that clear before ), but my comments in this instance are not meant to reflect that, just a general observation of the nature of religion itself, and the possible motives someone could have for telling you about theirs.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
see you're toying with me,
Damn. You're "on" today. :)
Christian Graus wrote:
but obviously pretty much any religion preaches that what they believe is worth knowing, and yields a positive result for the believer.
And no, I'm not really toying with you, but I am being a bit "casual". The point though is that with knowledge comes responsibility. One may very well argue that ignorance is bliss, and that certain spiritual knowledge can actually be detrimental without the proper strength of character. Hence many of the "secret societies" in the late 1800's, which only revealed esoteric knowledge after sufficient training and demonstration of character. Another angle is that we're all on our own spiritual paths. Imagine taking a VB programmer and showing them C++ or, heaven forbid, assembly language. It really wouldn't do the VB programmer any good to be introduced to that stuff until they were spiritually ready for it, metaphorically speaking.
Christian Graus wrote:
just a general observation of the nature of religion itself
I agree, what you said is the nature of religion as man has created it. It is not, IMO, the nature of "true" religion. A person from a "true" religion does not evangelize, but rather demonstrates his character by his deeds, which then draws people to ask about his convictions. And no, I'm not pulling your leg. I do truly believe that. Marc
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Christian Graus wrote:
see you're toying with me,
Damn. You're "on" today. :)
Christian Graus wrote:
but obviously pretty much any religion preaches that what they believe is worth knowing, and yields a positive result for the believer.
And no, I'm not really toying with you, but I am being a bit "casual". The point though is that with knowledge comes responsibility. One may very well argue that ignorance is bliss, and that certain spiritual knowledge can actually be detrimental without the proper strength of character. Hence many of the "secret societies" in the late 1800's, which only revealed esoteric knowledge after sufficient training and demonstration of character. Another angle is that we're all on our own spiritual paths. Imagine taking a VB programmer and showing them C++ or, heaven forbid, assembly language. It really wouldn't do the VB programmer any good to be introduced to that stuff until they were spiritually ready for it, metaphorically speaking.
Christian Graus wrote:
just a general observation of the nature of religion itself
I agree, what you said is the nature of religion as man has created it. It is not, IMO, the nature of "true" religion. A person from a "true" religion does not evangelize, but rather demonstrates his character by his deeds, which then draws people to ask about his convictions. And no, I'm not pulling your leg. I do truly believe that. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
A person from a "true" religion does not evangelize, but rather demonstrates his character by his deeds, which then draws people to ask about his convictions.
OK - I would say that someone who doesn't 'live' their belief has no credibility when they tell people about it, but I also believe that playing some game of trying to create reasons and situations for people to approach you about your religion is kind of silly. I mean, I don't believe for a second that being a Christian gives me any guarentee that I am capable of being a better person than any non-Christian on earth. So, how can my behaviour be expected to prove my beliefs ? All it can really do, is disprove it. That is to say, if I behave in a certain way, it could belie my claim to Christianity. No behaviour that I can think of, that doesn't involve directly saying I am a Christian, or discussing it in some way, or attending a 'Christian' gathering such as a church, can show I am a Christian, to the casual onlooker.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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That's just patently untrue. Sure, religion is often used to create power and control people, but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ? I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Sure, religion is often used to create power and control people, but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ?
Absolutely. The problem arises when people start fighting about who's right and who's wrong and throwing epithets about which side is less human than the other in an attempt to dehumanize the opposition. That isn't a characteristic of religion so much as it is a characteristic of our culture itself; you don't see many of the remaining extant human cultures attempting to conquer and assimilate the cultures around them. There's a difference between believing your beliefs are right, and using weapons (or in this day and age, legal force) to force others to agree with you. And this doesn't just apply to religion - it applies to any ideology. Atheists are equally guilty of this use of force, as are any number of other ideologies not religious in nature (e.g., special interest groups). We've become obsessed with forcing others to agree with us.
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It's gotta suck for the believers to realize, when they exhale their last breath, that there is nothing afterwards. I wish I could tell each and everyone of them "I told you so!" :)
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
I wish I could tell each and everyone of them "I told you so!"
I'm sure most of the believers out there would like to tell you people the same except it will be on different circumstances. Live and let live, just shut up and do what you want to do. Stop acting like you are superior because you are superior to nobody.
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It's gotta suck for the believers to realize, when they exhale their last breath, that there is nothing afterwards. I wish I could tell each and everyone of them "I told you so!" :)
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
I wish I could tell each and everyone of them "I told you so!"
I'm sure most of the believers out there would like to tell you people the same except it will be on different circumstances. Live and let live, just shut up and do what you want to do. Stop acting like you are superior because you are superior to nobody.
█▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒██████▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██
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On the weekend I was in Melbourne with my wife ( married 14 years ), and I saw a magazine cover which said 'Jessica Alba - proof that God exists'
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
On the weekend I was in Melbourne with my wife ( married 14 years ), and I saw a magazine cover which said 'Jessica Alba - proof that God exists'
So the magazine editor is stupid on two counts? :rolleyes:
Mongkut to a Christian missionary friend: "What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish".
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That's just patently untrue. Sure, religion is often used to create power and control people, but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ? I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ?
So everything you discover that you think enhances your life, you have to go on a worldwide crusade and try to convert the heathen?
Mongkut to a Christian missionary friend: "What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish".
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Captain See Sharp wrote:
because you are superior to nobody
Aw, your inferiority complex starting to pinch? :->
Mongkut to a Christian missionary friend: "What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish".
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Being right is sweet. :-D
Mongkut to a Christian missionary friend: "What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish".
Not being CSS is also sweet! :-D
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Not being CSS is also sweet! :-D
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Christian Graus wrote:
it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ?
So everything you discover that you think enhances your life, you have to go on a worldwide crusade and try to convert the heathen?
Mongkut to a Christian missionary friend: "What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish".
Not at all, but if I find out that a store has good service, or a good price, or a product works well, or a resort is nice to visit, I'd obviously tell my friends, and perhaps if it's really good, even people I don't know.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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On the weekend I was in Melbourne with my wife ( married 14 years ), and I saw a magazine cover which said 'Jessica Alba - proof that God exists'
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
:laugh: Paris Hilton is also proof God exists. Only a fiddling, meddling, higher-power could have forced nature to create such an abomination.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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That's just patently untrue. Sure, religion is often used to create power and control people, but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ? I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Bit of pay-back for all the years of not being able to criticise religion without being burnt/quartered/hanged etc. Even now I believe there are regions on Earth where saying something bad about religion will get your kid rejected from school or your house burnt down. (I'm not advocating the pay-back. I think we should just all get along and forgive past transgressions, live and let live and all that. Leave me alone if I don't want to hear about God and I'll leave you alone about how a flying spaghetti monster is as probable.)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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That's just patently untrue. Sure, religion is often used to create power and control people, but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ? I mean, why is the religion the one place where it's unacceptable to know about something good, and want to tell people about it ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
...but, right or wrong, when a person knocks on your door to tell you what they believe, it's surely possible that they believe they have found something that they believe has altered their life for the better, and that they'd like to share it ?
Why can't the religions just leave it up to the individual believer to do just that? Why must they make it a requirement, like with the Mormons? Equally, why can't religions teach the young and then if they choose, they can get Christened (or whatever other religions call it). Why must it be forced on them before they know how to shit straight in a nappy? I understand what you are saying, and as a matter of fact you are one of the few people I don't mind talking about religion with. You believe, have found a church that fits your belief and you don't go pounding it down other peoples throats. Unfortunately too many people believe cause they've had it rammed down their throat since they were born, are scared into continuing the belief and never actually go out and find out any information for themselves. My wife and her parents are catholic believers. None of them have read the bible, pretty much regurgitate whatever they were taught by their parents, church and religious school. Many times they have stated something completely untrue that I can contradict due to the 3 times I have read the bible myself or from stuff I have read here and in books. Too many people are like my wife and her parents, believe cause they were told too, never questioned anything and really have no idea or any ability to stand by their beliefs with any form of consistency or logic. You can, that is very different to many I run into.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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Marc Clifton wrote:
those who wish to seek should be welcome
Do you mean 'seek and ye shall find' ?
Marc Clifton wrote:
rather going out and "harvesting
As in 'the fields are white for harvest' ?
Marc Clifton wrote:
That's an interesting assumption.
I see you're toying with me, but obviously pretty much any religion preaches that what they believe is worth knowing, and yields a positive result for the believer. I'm obviously a Christian ( that is, I've made that clear before ), but my comments in this instance are not meant to reflect that, just a general observation of the nature of religion itself, and the possible motives someone could have for telling you about theirs.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you mean 'seek and ye shall find' ?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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Hmm. CP didn't send me an email that I got a reply. Anyway -
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Atheistic arguments against the existence of a god would seem a waste of time, for an atheist. If a believer throws out an opinion in an attemot to prove God's existence, as did whatshisname above, you should treat it like a meaningless stream of words worthy of being ignored - if you're truly an atheist that is. The point being that you'll never convince whatshisname of the nonexisence and he'll never convince you of the existence, so why bother?
Actually, I agree. That's why you won't find any posts here from me attempting to argue against those who believe. I simply don't see the point. I happen to be an atheist of the 3rd type, the type that is never acknowledged to exist because my type is a massive thorn in the side of those who choose a particular God - because I make no claim that God doesn't exist. Rather, I simply don't hold to any belief in one. I happen to think my position is the only truly rational one (of course, so does anyone else ; nobody would willingly hold what they consider to be an irrational belief) - being that the 10,000 human cultures through all of history have each believed in different Gods, what makes any particular one more real than any other? Any attempt to claim that one god or another is more real simply begs the question. It's not one that can be answered by the human mind. Note I don't say the only reasonable belief - I say the only rational one, that is, the only one based on fundamental logic. This is because I can accept that other humans, being equally capable of making reasonable choices, have chosen to believe in God, and being that I have no rational basis to claim otherwise, I can accept their belief without my own position being inconsistent. Incidentally, so much of the "I hate you, you're wrong" crap comes from people who are incapable of recognizing that their opponent can actually have a reasonable view - that starting position makes any meaningful debate impossible. If you start out assuming that a person's perspective is reasonable, try to discover how they got there, and find along the way that their point of view really is NOT reasonable, then you might have an argument for actually fighting over your disagreement - but very few people actually engage in that intellectual process. It is the height of hubris to claim the existence of non-existence of any God with the purpose of convincing othe
Patrick Sears wrote:
being that the 10,000 human cultures through all of history have each believed in different Gods, what makes any particular one more real than any other?
I hold that each culture is reaching out to the same conceptual being but provide their personal interpretation. I also think that its more interesting that each one of these 10,000 cultures reaches out to a conceptual God. Without any contact with each other they reach a similar conclusion. Do you think any of us would know the correct name and character? I don't. But I find it fascinating that just about every single culture on the face of this planet throughout history has reached the conclusion of something spiritual. Something that is outside of our reality. That's something in and of itself.
This statement was never false.